Anyone Ever use Propane injected directly to the exh manifold?

[turboglenn]

I remember seeing this on a mercedes turbo diesel car once with a HUGE turbo. Basically you drill a hole in your exhaust manifold right where the 4 runners meet and thread a propane nozzle into it. The explanation i got was that the flame coming out the exhaust ports lights the propane while your staged and allows/helps the tubo spool on the line before you launch. You run an electric solenoid similar to an N2o solenoid to the line and hold the switch down while you're holding the clutch and revving the motor and it's flame creates extra pressure in the manifold to spool the turbo.

I've never tried it, or even seen it in action. But today while gathering some old nitrous parts for putting a kit back together to use for spooling my turbo, i was thinking this would be a much cheaper gas to buy. And since my N2o bottle needs hydrotested i was thinking this might be cheaper and just as effective. I can't get ahold of the guy who had this on his mercedes (seems his shop went out of business) It was a place called "Nebraska turbocharger"

Any thoughts or experience first hand from anyone on this? The only thing i ever saw propane injection on was an old chevy truck my friends grandfather left him when he passesd away. But that was used as an alternative fuel to actually run the motor in general.

On a side note , you know you've been collecting car parts too long when after selling your nitrous kit, you can still find enough parts in your basement to make another one

 

[brute]

I can't get ahold of the guy who had this on his mercedes (seems his shop went out of business) It was a place called "Nebraska turbocharger"

Maybe it went out of business when his breakthrough innovation started blowing cars up

All jokes aside, this sounds like it may actually work. At the same time, however, it seems relatively dangerous to me. I thought at first you mean the injection would just be an extra volume of air to help spool the turbo, but when I read about the propane actually igniting, that's when I got

The theory is there, though, I'll give you that much. You said you saw this working in action on the Benz... Did it seem reliable? Effective? [insert cliche question here]?

 

[silver bullit]

Its being done on diesel trucks been done for a few years now look it up.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

How does the propane burning help the turbo spool faster??

 

[turboglenn]

Maybe it went out of business when his breakthrough innovation started blowing cars up

All jokes aside, this sounds like it may actually work. At the same time, however, it seems relatively dangerous to me. I thought at first you mean the injection would just be an extra volume of air to help spool the turbo, but when I read about the propane actually igniting, that's when I got

The theory is there, though, I'll give you that much. You said you saw this working in action on the Benz... Did it seem reliable? Effective? [insert cliche question here]?

I only saw it on the car, i never got to see it in action, but they assured me that it was effective and was common in the diesel world. I might google it and see what i get. They were, to put it nicely "backyard engineers" at best.. They owned a tubocharger rebuilding facility, but because they couldn't afford a balancer they professed that "it wasn't really important to balance a tubo because the wheels were made to such high standards from the factory" that spooked me enough to not stay in close connection with them. So who knows what happened to their "shop".

That's why i was asking if anyone else had experience with or had seen it in action before. It would be a cheap alternative to nitrous at damn near 6 bucks a pound now. and I'm on a mission to get my car back to where it was 5 years ago when people reafed and respected it at the local "street-car nights" gatherings at the dragstrip.

 

[aero_sallee]

Diesel engines under normal usage run higher AFR's than a gasoline engine. That leaves enough unburned oxygen in the exhaust to burn additional fuel. A turbo 4g63 running 10-12:1 afrs isn't going to leave much unburned oxygen at all for the propane to combust with. Unless you provide some way to get extra air into the exhaust manifold that is.

Hell it might be worth a try.

 

[turboglenn]

Hell it might be worth a try.

That's kind f what i was thinking, but i don't want to drill and tap another hole in my Turbonetics mani just to "see if something works"

I think i'll just go backj to good 'ol NAWZ

at least it has purdy lines and bottle

 

[JusMX141]

The explanation i got was that the flame coming out the exhaust ports lights the propane while your staged and allows/helps the tubo spool on the line before you launch.

Wow....just imagine what that would do to turbine wheels....

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[2gGSX]

I agree that this doesn't seem too necessary. We have options for a crude anti-lag system already, which is more or less what this is. The majority of people don't need to leave the line at full boost anyways. I personally set my 2 step lower than most people to avoid wheelspin and go easier on the drivetrain.

 

[mavisky]

The easiest option would be to inject oxygen into the exhaust manifold ala the anti-lag setups from the WRC. Not too good on turbine wheels though.

 

[tqmx1]

The easiest option would be to inject oxygen into the exhaust manifold ala the anti-lag setups from the WRC. Not too good on turbine wheels though.

Man that has all the makeings of a cutting torch. Not in my engine!!

 

[mavisky]

Well not pure oxygen, but rather just normal outside air. It's still a severe reaction and the reason people don't run it on the street. It's not uncommon for a WRC team to go through a couple turbos during a race weekend.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Well not pure oxygen, but rather just normal outside air. It's still a severe reaction and the reason people don't run it on the street. It's not uncommon for a WRC team to go through a couple turbos during a race weekend.

yeah i was just going to mention rally cars use it a lot. if you ever watch the WRC, when the let off throttle, their cars backfire and pop and throw flames out the tail-pipe, well thats their anti-lag system. They have injectors in the exhaust mani that cause the air to combust in the exhaust manifold leading to more exhaust pressure which then spools the turbo.

But yes, keep 2-10 turbos on hand if you plan on running an anti-lag system.

 

[brute]

How do they time it? I can't imagine trying to get the explosion from reversing through an open exhaust valve. Maybe the expended gasses coming out of the combustion chamber have more energy to overpower the upstreaming?

As with most things DSM, "this sounds like a bad idea... DO IT!"

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Here is a good write-up about anti-lag systems:
Turbo Anti-lag systems - A technical description

 

[SpeedAddict62]

I've done a lot of reading online about ALS (anti lag systems) trying to figure out the different approaches, most specifically trying to figure out what the WRC cars use. What I've learned so far is there are two main ways to keep the turbo spooled off throttle/during shifts. One way is to jack the throttle open, inject extra fuel and retard the timing, a lot (20+ ATDC). The exhaust valve opens when the mixture is still burning, putting a beating on the exhaust system but also spooling the turbo quite well.

The other way, and I believe this is how the WRC teams do it, is to have some kind of diverter valve between post-turbo intake and pre-turbo exhaust. Put a seperate injector in the exhaust manifold (or just dump extra fuel in the motor) and you have basically created another combustion chamber. Of course you need some way of controlling how much air to divert to the exhaust to keep turbo speeds in check.

Here is a page on the Audi Group B cars, showing what they used:Audi Umluft
Wikipedia has some good info too:Wikipedia
Another car to look at is the Prodrive P2, it was fitted with ALS that supposedly was less harmful than WRC systems.

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot of info out there about ALS, although I think its fascinating (and sounds amazing!) If anyone knows of any more info out there, let me know. I think it would be awesome to fit a mild ALS system to a DSM. My personal idea is to build an exhaust manifold with another small chamber attached (like how you would put on an external wastegate). Divert some fresh intake air to the chamber when off throttle, and then have a seperate fuel injector mounted somewhere in the chamber. It would be very helpful to have some electrical control, especially to have a switch to turn off the system on the street when its not in use. If this worked, I think it would take stresses off the rest of the exhaust manifold and the cylinders that a different ALS system would create.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

This may be of some interest:
YouTube - Subaru Impreza ALS

You can hear the ALS when he lets off throttle. Sounds like rice crispy cereal on steroids


Another quick video:
YouTube - Evo 6 TME Anti-lag

 

[brute]

Sounds healthy. Definitely not something I'd want on my DD. I think I can handle the few seconds (if that) it takes to respool; I just can't imagine how much and how often you'd be replacing components

 

[tlikethedrink]

That's the exact opposite setup of the one we're talking about .

i figured if any, this would be the best place to ask. since this post was answering good propane questions...
i asked before elsewhere, nobody knew

 

[Defiant]

Things done in racing -where the engine has to last for a day or so, and is routinely re-made after a few hours- are seldom well-adapted to street use.
If you're running a pure-race car, go for it. Just grab one of the spare turbos from the shelf in the support van when that one takes the Final Big Shit. But don't go whining about it when it happens in the left turn lane at Main and Elm.
Turbocharging just in itself is an unholy load on an engine. Getting almost two horsepower out of a cubic inch in stock tune wasn't only unheard-of twenty years ago, it was hard-against impossible. We're taking the 4G63T to what now, six-hundred and more? It's insanity.
Anyway, putting still more heat into an already-glowing turbo snail, particularly by bringing in ice-cold propane and lighting it, would be very, very, very hard on things. Regardless who has done it "all the time".

 

[turboglenn]

Ok, so i'm not going to do this, but thought it was good food for thought. And the thought's mainly suggest "not on a gas engine!" I have anti lag, but the only thing i don't like about it is exactly what you hear in the vids. The way it make s the car run when you're using it. I've been gathering some nitrous parts back up over the last few days and am going back to using that for my "insta-spool" setup.

I have liked the anti-lag out on the highway when testing it, as i can hold the throttle and the anti-lag button, the car keeps a consistant speed and the turbo spools righ up till the wastegate opens, then when i let off the AL button she just takes off.

 

[Defiant]

Eh, if you're gonna blow it up anyway, make it glorious.

 

[mavisky]

I think the WRC cars dump extra fuel and then inject the oxygen to get it back to a a/f that will actually burn.

The Prodrive P2 car would be a good look. If I was an awd in autocross I'd love to have this setup on the car. Especially a switchable unit where I could shut it off during daily driving. It'd cost me another $500 for a new turbo every year (or more), but it would turn lag time to nothing.

 

[brute]

It'd cost me another $500 for a new turbo every year (or more), but it would turn lag time to nothing.

The sad irony rears its head: the turbos big enough to need anti-lag cost a lot

 

[laserspeeddemon]

The sad irony rears its head: the turbos big enough to need anti-lag cost a lot

Not if you have sponsors.

Anti-lag systems work relatively they same way with the air/fuel mixture it's the ignited part that differs. Either the manifold/turbine is hot enough to ignite the mixture or ignition timing is retarded (or advanced depending how you look at it) so far that the spark is lit off during the exhaust stroke. The flow of energy shoots around the turbine keeping the turbo spooled and ready for on-throttle action.
Well, at least this is how it works in Rally, I'm sure Drag is different since you need some method of keeping the motor running, while in the Rally Anti-Lag Systems operates during off-throttle.

I was actually looking into an ALS since I will am trying to compete Rally next season in a local league. But considering the relatively small league and the amount of prize money (or lack there of) for winning, even the season (let alone a single race) I would be taking a major loss each season replacing turbos without a sponsor. Who is going to sponsor a local league player?