Aftermarket ball joints that change the roll center?

[underradar92]

The tierods are really just 2 heim joints, shortened a bit, 2 5/8 x 3.5" bolts, ream the hole and the rest is stuff I made at work.

 

[gman991057]

underradar92, any comments on how the ball joints have worked out? Or pictures of your current LCA angle and wheel clearance?

 

[underradar92]

Ah, no. Seems I need to learn how to change a timing belt the correct way. No damage but, progress is stopped for the moment.

 

[pagosa dsm]

I just finished my rear tubular lower control arms tonight.I will have some photos in the next few days.Next I would like to build a front tubular lower control arm.Jim have you taken some photos of your arms so I could get some ideas?

 

[underradar92]

I just finished my rear tubular lower control arms tonight.I will have some photos in the next few days.Next I would like to build a front tubular lower control arm.Jim have you taken some photos of your arms so I could get some ideas?

Mine are just Polk Racing arms albeit with some gusseting in the "problem area" and the modified ball joint recievers. No pic's yet and the car is in an awkward position at the moment.

I really like the basic design of the arms that Paul's friend is doing except for the bolted rear pivot and the reluctance to do a Howe/Dodge ball joint, for whatever that may be worth.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I'm going to go into the control arms:


First off, the polk ones break under braking. They really are a pretty bad design regardless of whether you're a road racer or a drag racer. Under braking you have a large moment around the ball joint and this design really doesn't tie the two tubes together, nor does it provide logical paths for these forces to go back to the body of the car.

Think about that. This control arm has to take all of the grip of the tire and transfer it into a rearward force acting on subframe to take the entire mass of the car from 130mph down to 40mph. This piece needs to be torsionally stable.

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I've drawn up how I would do it in this word document. It's super rough (the white would be 1.25 .090 wall 4130, the red would be 1/4" thick plate triangular gussets), but I would actually use a single piece of tubing to go from the front subframe attachment, straight to the front side of whatever ball joint receiver you're using. If possible, I'd notch the tube so that you could actually bend it around the BJ reciver and bring it back to that center node. I have no idea if what i'm saying is actually easy to understand or not, but I can't think of a better way to say it.

EDIT: Document is too large, I'll have to find a better way to post it. give me a day or so.

 

[aaronmatusz]

Where are you getting metric heim joints with M14x1.5 female threads?
What size was the ball bore?

 

[aaronmatusz]

I'm surprised nobody posted any more about this...anyway I got mine working!

In Wisconsin it's hard to find passenger side LCAs that aren't rusted through at some point, so I repaired what I had:

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The rear bushing rusts away to almost nothing and needs to built up again. The top of this one also developed holes on top so I cut out the effected areas, welded in replacement metal and put a strip over top of everything...I hope it holds.

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I got these metric rod ends from a local vendor:

Item # AWF-M14, AW-M & AG-M Series Female Rod Ends - Metric, High Strength Alloy - Precision - (Ptfe Liners Available) on Aurora Bearing Company

And the Howe ball joint setup discussed earlier:

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More later...

 

[pagosa dsm]

Where are you getting metric heim joints with M14x1.5 female threads?
What size was the ball bore?

Nice work.You could of called a salvage yard here in the west and got an other set of front control arms for about 75-100 $.I got a hole sub frame complete for $100.I just made a rear bushing out of steel.It has no extra noise of vibration. With the heim joint on the tie rod ends,did you check the bump steer?I made a set,I discoverd that bump steer was closer to the spindle.You can check my gallery for a photo.

 

[aaronmatusz]

I forget how long the spacer is (as seen in the last pic) but it did drop the pivot 7/8" over stock... the same as the +0.5" Howe ball joint.

I'm going to an autocross Sunday, I'll report back as to whether it all works or not. =o]

Edit: Holy crap! I improved a lot and got my first ever trophy (third place of thirteen). I'm usually 5-6 seconds behind the Evo that always wins street mod in my area...this time I was behind 1.7sec.

Final Results, #7 - Event#7 - Invalid DateTime

This setup really does make the car much more predictable.

 

[underradar92]

Very cool, Aaron. Cool to see a direct comparison with really just the geometry change. I think the geometry alone, is worth cutting up some stock arms, why worry about a tiny bit of weight when the geometry is so messed up, and affects handling more anyway. I just got done correcting bump steer on my Ranger too and wow, what a difference.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

yeah great job sunday Aaron. you did great! I hope you made it home ok with those NT01's in the rain.

Full Raw Results: Final Raw Time Results, #7 - Event#7 - Invalid DateTime

 

[aaronmatusz]

underradar: Did you do this to your Talon yet? If so, did you have any clearance problems with the weld-in BJ socket and the brake rotor? I had a bit of grinding to do before things worked smoothly.

Andy: Thanks! It's a great feeling to finally make that old chassis catch up with much more highly regarded cars. I think next year I just might enroll in a class and learn how to drive the thing.
...And yes, I barely made it home.

 

[underradar92]

underradar: Did you do this to your Talon yet? If so, did you have any clearance problems with the weld-in BJ socket and the brake rotor? I had a bit of grinding to do before things worked smoothly.

Yeah, definately had to grind a bit of clearance into the sleeves. Not a lot though.

 

[xloki77x]

Does anyone have any driving feedback with these ball joints installed? I'm in the midst of setting my car up for RTA Street and everything is out of the car at the moment. I'm in the air over this one and was hoping to find some reassurance that I should add this to the list. Thanks for the awesome thread guys; if only more were interested in this facet of racing...

 

[Ludachris]

Looking at the size of the Howe ball joint stud, this seems to be a no brainer. At that size strength is not an issue and for the cheaper dsm crowd this is a good way to get the LCA angle closer to where it should be.

Really nice find underradar, any other comments or concerns? I plan on ordering the parts ASAP.

underradar, what information do I need exactly to order the parts i need from Howe, and then from Coleman.
-Howe Screw-in 727 ball joint w/ an additional .5" oversized stud-
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

-Coleman insert : CB815 - Chrysler K-727 sleeve
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

So 3 different parts, 2 of each, comes out to around $300??

Sound about right? I just dont want to call these vendors and sound like an A-hole that doesn't know exactly what he wants. Also, why did you go with the screw type? any chance a press in diameter would be close to our LCA diameter?

Of course, now that I'm ready to pick a set of new ball joints, these links no longer work... anyone have these part numbers? I have the ball joints as HOW 22320S on Howe's site, but can't find info on the longer studs or the other parts needed.

Here's what I found...



More links for these parts, since the Coleman site was changed:

www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (ball joints)
www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (.4" longer studs)
www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (.5" longer studs)

Racing and Car Products - Coleman Racing - Ball Joint Sleeve, Weld-On, K727 (weld-on threaded sleeve)

 

[donk]

I found this cruisng the web, do you think this is something that we could use ?

www.PMWltd.com - Performance Machine Works, LTD Racing Suspension Specialists - Home Page (upp to the left)

More talk about them here on a audi forum

Extended ball joints for lowered suspension? - S2Forum - The Audi S2 Community

/A

 

[randedge]

I have an Evo II (well, an Evo I with Evo II suspension)
I too am figuring out how to correct front suspension geometry.


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I'm surprised nobody posted any more about this...anyway I got mine working!

In Wisconsin it's hard to find passenger side LCAs that aren't rusted through at some point, so I repaired what I had:

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The rear bushing rusts away to almost nothing and needs to built up again. The top of this one also developed holes on top so I cut out the effected areas, welded in replacement metal and put a strip over top of everything...I hope it holds.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I got these metric rod ends from a local vendor:

Item # AWF-M14, AW-M & AG-M Series Female Rod Ends - Metric, High Strength Alloy - Precision - (Ptfe Liners Available) on Aurora Bearing Company

And the Howe ball joint setup discussed earlier:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

More later...

Love the post! I understand the rod ends that you replaced the tie rods are off the shelf, but what about that extender that brings the pivot point down? I suppose that's where custom machining is required? Or is that somehow also off the shelf circle track part?

Lastly, there's extended balljoint studs, not just fractions of an inch, but what would appear to be more than a full inch!
http://www.howeracing.com/p-7862-extended-drop-ball-joint-stud.aspx

With the balljoints you use, is there one with super long ones like this? Also, would you want to? Or would that be overkill

Thanks!

 

[Wrecklezz1]

any more updates

 

[Savage Talon]

And the Howe ball joint setup discussed earlier:

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This pic looks like you mounted the BJ from the bottom. Is that right? I thought you would weld the threaded part into the top. And mount the BJ from the top.

 

[underradar92]

I found this cruisng the web, do you think this is something that we could use ?[/url]
/A

No, first gens use tapered studs in the upright casting. Those Audi parts are the non-tapered pinched stud design like my Subaru uses, along with (apparently) EVOVIII bits.

This pic looks like you mounted the BJ from the bottom. Is that right? I thought you would weld the threaded part into the top. And mount the BJ from the top.

Not sure what you are suggesting, the photos show the proper installation. The idea is to move the actual pivot point lower to correct roll center/control arm angularity.

With the balljoints you use, is there one with super long ones like this? Also, would you want to? Or would that be overkill

Thanks!

That IS the extended stud for the exact balljoints described in this thread.

 

[Savage Talon]

Not sure what you are suggesting, the photos show the proper installation. The idea is to move the actual pivot point lower to correct roll center/control arm angularity.

I guess I just don't understand what is going on here. Isn't the stock ball joint pressed in the control arm from the top? That pic looks like the new one is screwed in from the bottom of the control arm. So the point of this mod is to change the BJ pivot point from the top of the control arm to the bottom? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what is happening here.

 

[underradar92]

The point is to correct roll center on excessively lowered first gen. DSM's. Roll center explained: Google Image Result for http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_rollcenter.jpg

 

[aaronmatusz]

I guess I just don't understand what is going on here. Isn't the stock ball joint pressed in the control arm from the top? That pic looks like the new one is screwed in from the bottom of the control arm. So the point of this mod is to change the BJ pivot point from the top of the control arm to the bottom? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what is happening here.

I cut the end of the LCA off and welded a threaded socket in so I could use the howe BJ. The pivot in relation to the LCA might be a little lower, but I didn't mean for that to happen AND it just doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that the new BJ pivot is lower in relation to the LCA inner pivot than the old BJ would be at the same ride height. The reasons for all that are probably in the article underradar92 linked.

 

[Savage Talon]

Thank you for the explanation.