Aftermarket ball joints that change the roll center?

[97eclipseNT]

ive also wanted to see if the evo spindle will work. not only because of the ball joints but also like someone else said for the brake options. i've seen stock evo brembos go for $300 for a front set on ebay. if that works this could be one of the cheapest big brake kits for our cars.

 

[underradar92]

I'm going to order a set of the Megan ball joints. I'll post my findings here.

Ok screw all that, after looking at some circle track parts, I found that "Chrysler style" screw in upper ball joints utilize the same taper as our cars, so I bored out the control arm and had some $12.00 threaded fittings welded in.

The Howe ball joint is much stronger and has many length options, I chose .4" longer studs. They are also rebuildable and greaseable.

 

[aaronmatusz]

What part number did you get? (for both the balljoint & sleeve)
What's the stock BJ length?
Where did you get it all from?

 

[Ludachris]

Ok screw all that, after looking at some circle track parts, I found that "Chrysler style" screw in upper ball joints utilize the same taper as our cars, so I bored out the control arm and had some $12.00 threaded fittings welded in.

The Howe ball joint is much stronger and has many length options, I chose .4" longer studs. They are also rebuildable and greaseable.

Yes, please post part numbers for the ball joints you chose and maybe some online sources to buy from. I'm really looking forward to trying this out this season.

 

[turboAWDfanatic]

*subscribed*

I'm definitely interested in hearing more followup info on all this! Keep it up!

 

[underradar92]

The basic joint is HOW22320S, Howe Racing Precision Ball Joints .

A .400 longer stud is available separately. I don't know the P/N on that.

The threaded insert for welding into the control arm is available through Coleman, I think it was the CB815 but, it was pulled of a hidden shelf so I can't be positive. It seems to be the one to fit the upper style joint. Since I sourced this stuff through Behlings, a local place that still seems to have no website, y'all will need to find Howe and Coleman sellers on your own. Here is the coleman page: Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

Aaron, as best as I can tell, the two ball joints seem very close in taper to ball centerline length, using the supplied stud, therefore the +.400 stud should net a .400 difference.

Enjoy!

Admin edited:

More links for these parts, since the Coleman site was changed:

www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (ball joints)
www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (.4" longer studs)
www.pitstopusa.com - Detail (.5" longer studs)

Racing and Car Products - Coleman Racing - Ball Joint Sleeve, Weld-On, K727 (weld-on threaded sleeve)

 

[mschlanglv]

Aaron, as best as I can tell, the ball joints seem very close in taper to ball centerline length. The Howe piece is NOTICEABLY beefier however.

Enjoy!

If the taper to ball distance is the same as stock, won't the roll center be unaffected? In a previous post you state that the stud is .4" longer, but you seem to contradict that in the last post.

 

[aaronmatusz]

Hrmm... I too am having trouble visualizing what you're saying, but maybe I asked the wrong question.
If you had a bare stock stud (free of the socket part of the BJ) and installed it in a steering knuckle it would hang down out of the knuckle a measurable amount (as measured from the bottom face of the tapered hole on the steering knuckle to the ball centerline). And if you did the same with the fancy ball stud you found, it would hang X amount farther...How much?

How much of an installed difference can we expect?

Either way, Thanks for all the other killer info.

 

[underradar92]

Ok, the stud that comes originally in the Howe ball joint looks to be about the same length from the ball C/L to the taper seating point, as a stocker.

The .400" longer one, which is available separately, is the one which will "correct" the control arm angle. There are studs available in .10 longer, .20 longer, .30 longer and .40 longer. I have no way of really knowing if the geometry is now truly correct so, I figured that anything is better than having an underground roll center, I went "all in" by selecting the longest one. If anyone wants to do the drawings, that'd be cool.

I can say for sure that the control arm has a noticeably steeper angle now.

I guess that first sentence was a bit unspecific. It has been reworded. My bad.

 

[mschlanglv]

Thanks for the clarification Jim. Have you had the chance to get any behind the wheel impressions? Reducing the roll axis inclination should increase turn-in and reduce understeer, just wondering what effect .4" has had.

Thanks!

 

[underradar92]

Thanks for the clarification Jim. Have you had the chance to get any behind the wheel impressions? Reducing the roll axis inclination should increase turn-in and reduce understeer, just wondering what effect .4" has had.

Thanks!

Alas, she is still on stands waiting for the finishing touches on the t/belt replacement, then off to the alignment shop. I should be posting my findings when I do a thread on spring track day, Apr. 18-19.

Stay tuned.

 

[dylnwit]

Ok, I know some of you people are going to hate me for asking, but if this does indeed help understeer, would someone doing this do a write up with some good pictures while they're at it? I believe I understand how it all fits together, and I understand (somewhat) the physics behind why you'd do this, but I'd like to see the process before I dive in.

 

[aaronmatusz]

Sounds like it's worth doing for sure.
Did you do anything with the steering tierod ends?
Thier geometery needs to be changed too right?

 

[underradar92]

Sounds like it's worth doing for sure.
Did you do anything with the steering tierod ends?
Thier geometery needs to be changed too right?

Yeah, actually I did install spacers and Heim joints on the tie rods to help reduce bump steer. Without actually checking toe change, the tie rod angles seem to more closely resemble the control arm angle, rather than being on another orbit completely. I'll also try to make note of the feedback on that detail in the thread I do later.

FWIW, it's alive! Still on stands but, all I need to do is put on the front tires and drive to the alignment shop a bit down the road.

 

[Ludachris]

Ok, I know some of you people are going to hate me for asking, but if this does indeed help understeer, would someone doing this do a write up with some good pictures while they're at it? I believe I understand how it all fits together, and I understand (somewhat) the physics behind why you'd do this, but I'd like to see the process before I dive in.

This mod is mostly for preventing bump steer and making a lowered car more predictable in the turns. Whenever you lower a 1G, it throws off the handling. This brings the geometry back to something close to how it was designed from the factory, which means the handling "should" be better.

I don't know that it will have any effect on understeer though. That can be addressed with stiffer springs, larger swaybars (and playing with settings on the springs and bars), and to some extent, solid bushings and mods that help stiffen the chassis - like a roll bar/cage. But you'll never really get rid of it on these cars. You'll see a lot of talk in this forum about suspension mods to help make these things handle like race cars.

 

[dylnwit]

Thanks for the clarification Jim. Have you had the chance to get any behind the wheel impressions? Reducing the roll axis inclination should increase turn-in and reduce understeer, just wondering what effect .4" has had.

Thanks!

This is where I was getting the impression that this mod might also help with the understeer issue, sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I am still curious about the 240sx ball joint as a nearly direct drop in, and the EVO spindle direction due to the large support of the platform.

Thank you for the clarification Chris, I hope one of these directions works out well, but is still economical for those of us on a budget.

 

[pagosa dsm]

Yeah, actually I did install spacers and Heim joints on the tie rods to help reduce bump steer. Without actually checking toe change, the tie rod angles seem to more closely resemble the control arm angle, rather than being on another orbit completely. I'll also try to make note of the feedback on that detail in the thread I do later.

FWIW, it's alive! Still on stands but, all I need to do is put on the front tires and drive to the alignment shop a bit down the road.

Jim
Do you have any photos of your heim joint tie rod ends?I made mine about 3 years ago.I did check my bump steer,and notice closer to the spindle, the less the bump steer.I checked it 2" up and 2" down of 3/4 " lowerd car. You can see some photos of my tie rod ends in my gallery.
Rick

 

[underradar92]

Pagosa,

I saw your pic's and I'm suprised that moving the tie rod closer to the arm helped bumpsteer. Maybe it's due to being lowered 3/4 inch? Mine is way lower, so it appears, even with the wheels off the ground, that the tie rods needed to move down, away from the arm. I have no way of determining toe change at home, unfortunately.

The fact that I've changed the ball joint location will also affect where the tie rods will be happiest too, no?

No, I haven't taken any pic.s yet. I will soon though.

 

[gman991057]

underradar92, very nice find! I am very interested to find out how this ball join setup effects your LCA angle. Any chance of before and after pics of the LCA with the car on the ground??

 

[underradar92]

Here is a pic of the difference in the 2 ball joint studs. The larger one is the Howe piece. I measured the 2 for length comparison and this one is the standard length that is included in the original package. It is actually .3115 longer than the normal DSM piece. So that would make the +.400 one in my car .7115 longer than stock. Should be interesting.

Drove it today, to the alignment shop and back. They were too busy to do it today. Poop! Maybe this weekend.

Gman, I have no before pic.s so, no. I can say that the angle is .7115 different.

 

[gman991057]

Looking at the size of the Howe ball joint stud, this seems to be a no brainer. At that size strength is not an issue and for the cheaper dsm crowd this is a good way to get the LCA angle closer to where it should be.

Really nice find underradar, any other comments or concerns? I plan on ordering the parts ASAP.

underradar, what information do I need exactly to order the parts i need from Howe, and then from Coleman.
-Howe Screw-in 727 ball joint w/ an additional .5" oversized stud-
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

-Coleman insert : CB815 - Chrysler K-727 sleeve
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

So 3 different parts, 2 of each, comes out to around $300??

Sound about right? I just dont want to call these vendors and sound like an A-hole that doesn't know exactly what he wants. Also, why did you go with the screw type? any chance a press in diameter would be close to our LCA diameter?

 

[underradar92]

Looking at the size of the Howe ball joint stud, this seems to be a no brainer. At that size strength is not an issue and for the cheaper dsm crowd this is a good way to get the LCA angle closer to where it should be.

Really nice find underradar, any other comments or concerns? I plan on ordering the parts ASAP.

underradar, what information do I need exactly to order the parts i need from Howe, and then from Coleman.
-Howe Screw-in 727 ball joint w/ an additional .5" oversized stud-
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

-Coleman insert : CB815 - Chrysler K-727 sleeve
Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products

So 3 different parts, 2 of each, comes out to around $300??

Sound about right? I just dont want to call these vendors and sound like an A-hole that doesn't know exactly what he wants. Also, why did you go with the screw type? any chance a press in diameter would be close to our LCA diameter?

I'd actually considered using a lower ball joint style and cutting off the ear on the spindle to weld the larger taper receiver but that seemed like super overkill. Check out how big the shank is on one of those honey's.

I went with the screw in type because I already have the socket from when I had a Plymouth. Plus, it can be serviced without a press. And the sleeves are cheap.

Anyhoo, yeah, I think that looks ok to me. Are you going for the +.5 studs? I was going to but, the shop only had 1 of them in stock and I'm a bit impatient.

Watch your brake rotor clearance, mine is really close.

 

[schemauer]

Jim - are you at Road America on Sunday for the F Body event? I need to look at that setup....

Scott

 

[underradar92]

Jim - are you at Road America on Sunday for the F Body event? I need to look at that setup....

Scott

Barring something really crappy, yes. I do plan on running that weekend, both days. I will be there personally unless I'm dead. Blackcar is all done except for the alignment so it should make it too. (a certain GTR is slated to show too )

I'm thinking if Hell does freeze over, keeping the car from the track, I'll use the subsequent NASA weekend to track the wreck. Rumor is that Slow Old Poop and friends may be at the NASA deal. If they show, I'm party-ing that weekend too!

 

[aaronmatusz]

Wow, a parts list, great for lazy buggers like me who don't want to shop around...
Aaaand on that note, anyone have a parts list & basic description of what was
done with the Steering tie rod ends? Was there a special tapered shaft needed to fit in the steering knuckle? Any info on a heim joint with the apropriate threads? Any special spacers?


I'm still curious about the EVO steering knuckle just because I haven't heard of anyone having problems with wheel bearings/ pad knockback with an EVO.

I'm probably gonna stick with this for now since the new bearings are waiting for me at home.