1G 90 valvetrain upgrade ideas.

[wolf alchemy]

Posting here instead of the cylinder head and short block is because it says this. ->This forum was created for the more advanced DSM enthusiasts in mind, specifically, those who have already modded their DSMs past the Stage 2 point (400hp). Unless you have extensive experience in the building, tuning, and repairing DSMs, you should post in one of the other forums. Everyone is welcome to read through and learn from these discussions, but please be aware that topics that don't belong in this forum will be deleted and you could get banned for not paying attention to this request. If you're not sure if the question is advanced enough to be posted in this forum, please post it in the Newbie Forum instead.

I'm just looking for opinions due to the fact I want to buy the parts for my friend to install since I know nothing about a valve train and would rather not f*** up. I'm looking at the SUPERTECH dual valve springs with titanium retainers. Intake and exhaust valve guides, valve stem seats, valve stem seals. And this from eBay. Not too comfortable with it since a lot people dislike eBay items, Brian Crower Cam Gears Eagle Talon DSM 4G63 90-99 (BC8810). Cam gears are after car is running again. Lastly I need valves, but really haven't made a choice yet.

 

[Jerzm3]

Can't go wrong with what you suggested. Supertech is tried and true, generally the cheapest out of them all. Next would be manley and then of course ferrea and gsc. All depends on brand preference i guess. I do suggest picking out your desired cam to ensure that your springs will have enough seat pressure if you decide to go with a large cam.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I am putting my 6 bolt together right now and I have Supertech everything ...Valves, guides, springs and retainers (single, STM guys run these with up to a 272 cam on their own cars according to Brian) and seals. They are the nitride ones and my machinist was very happy with all of the components. I guess if you were running larger lift cams then the dual springs would be good though. My cams are Kelford 264's with 11mm/10.5 mm lift just for comparison.

 

[wolf alchemy]

I'm open to any valves forfor stock, or should I upgrade the size of them since the guy said I might need to have the head machined.

 

[wolf alchemy]

I am putting my 6 bolt together right now and I have Supertech everything ...Valves, guides, springs and retainers (single, STM guys run these with up to a 272 cam on their own cars according to Brian) and seals. They are the nitride ones and my machinist was very happy with all of the components. I guess if you were running larger lift cams then the dual springs would be good though. My cams are Kelford 264's with 11mm/10.5 mm lift just for comparison.

Larger lift cams? I wannted to get dual springs to decrease the chances of the piston hitting a valve during high RPMS.

 

[wolf alchemy]

And can you guys be more specific. When you say cams, do you mean cam shaft, or cam gears.

 

[Jerzm3]

Cams=camshaft. There are few companies offering cam gears for our cars anymore. I went with the aem tru-time personally. They are great, look well constructed abd should do the job. For cams, the brands and combinations are plentiful. U just have to decide what your goal is.

 

[BogusSVO]

Cams means camshafts

Personally I do not much like Supertech, the valves are brittle and if the timing belt fails the valve head tends to snap off rather than just bend.

You are better off with BC, GSC, Engnbldr, ferrea or manley valves.

For valve springs, those need to be set for the cam you run. I will agree that the old stock ones need to be replaced.

The BC1100 work well with stock retainers and will handle the smaller 272 cams, BC, HKS, Comp/FP2
Beehives or Duals for The GSC and Kelfords 272 and bigger

Just because you install dual springs doesn't mean you lessen the chance of your valves hitting pistons in the upper RPM. The spring needs to be installed and have the installed height set so you have the pressure that are needed.

From the sound of your post you really do not know what is going on in the cylinder head, you will want to search and read more.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/bogussvo-how-to-links-and-other-info.450429/#post-153125637

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Dale, I BENT 6 out of my 8 exhaust valves rolling my cams over without bleeding my lifters....lesson learned there, but they bent, some ever so slightly and only noticeable when you put the valve in a grinding machine. A few were noticeably bent by standing them on a flat surface. I really figured since they were nitride that they would snap also but not in my case....anyway a set of exhaust valves later and I am back together with the engine. Anyway, that is my personal experience just lately and thanks for the advice when we talked, if not for you I would have assumed that my head was ok and would have installed the engine in the car just to find out that my stupidity had hurt the motors valves. Just thought I'd throw that out their. Not to sway any opinions because I trust your experience in head work and others should also! Dale knows his stuff! Marty

 

[BogusSVO]

The nitrate coating is there to harden the valve, to slow wear where the stem moves in the guide, it will not strengthen the valve from bending.

This is a head I had to go back through, it had a full ST build in it.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/4g63-dropped-valve-head-repair.439824/

One of the biggest reason a valve snaps and not bends, it is a 2 piece design where the valve stem is friction welded to the valve head, the weld is strong but the metal on either side of the weld become brittle.

Now supertech, on the inconel exhaust valves uses this method.

Now it has been years since I spoke with ST, But IIRC, they use one grade of stainless for the valve stem and another grade for the head of the intake valve.

Now about everyone else who makes valves uses the one piece design, and runs a 21-4N stainless

If you want a nitrated valve AND a 1 piece design, Look at the BC and GSC valves.


I guess I should add this too, Another forum I am on, the common knowledge over there is not to run Ti spring retainers on the street, due to them needing replaced every 15000 miles or they crack and can drop a valve.
That was a new one on me, so I got to asking why.
It is not the first time I have heard or seen of a Ti retainer failing.
Just the first time that they needed to be changed at a given mileage.

The story goes tho, this guy built the head installed the Ti retainers, and was all smiles until one day he heard a odd noise, He pulled his VC and saw the crack in the retainer so now the rocker arm was banging on the retainer.
He called and spoke with them and that is what they told him, They have to be changed out every 15K miles.
He had 15150 miles on them.


The other one that sticks in my mind, is about a Benz road race build, about an hour run time, 2 dyno tune sessions and 8 laps and the Ti retainer split into 2 pieces while running down the track.

Funny thing, same kind of fail, 2 totally different engines, 2 different uses, 2 different builders, 2 different parts of the country.... Same brand.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Great information Dale! Thanks for all you contribute!

 

[wolf alchemy]

Cams means camshafts

Personally I do not much like Supertech, the valves are brittle and if the timing belt fails the valve head tends to snap off rather than just bend.

You are better off with BC, GSC, Engnbldr, ferrea or manley valves.

For valve springs, those need to be set for the cam you run. I will agree that the old stock ones need to be replaced.

The BC1100 work well with stock retainers and will handle the smaller 272 cams, BC, HKS, Comp/FP2
Beehives or Duals for The GSC and Kelfords 272 and bigger

Just because you install dual springs doesn't mean you lessen the chance of your valves hitting pistons in the upper RPM. The spring needs to be installed and have the installed height set so you have the pressure that are needed.

From the sound of your post you really do not know what is going on in the cylinder head, you will want to search and read more.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/bogussvo-how-to-links-and-other-info.450429/#post-153125637

I truely do not. No idea how lifters fit into the mix, but all I know is the camshaft spins and the teeth push the valve open and spring pulls it back. Literally just the simple basics. It'd help if I could take one apart to fiddle with, but not doing it to my car. Lol. Thanks for the amazing advice.

 

[BogusSVO]

Cams do not have "teeth" they have lobes, the lobes are made from 3 basic parts, Toe, Heel and ramps.

The ramps are the side, the toe is the tip(valve fully open) and the heel (valve fully closed)

Lifters are the "common" term used, but the 4g63 (about any OHC) have HLA Hydraulic Lash Adjusters

 

[wolf alchemy]

I didn't know the technical term for it, but now I do. I'm going to look over the link you sent and read my car repair manuals to get a better understanding.