20 psi on stock injectors...?

[Budget90GST]

Just make sure all the metal shavings are cleaned out if you go this route. You wouldn't want these in your engine or turbo. Goodluck.

 

[polishshark]

Just make sure all the metal shavings are cleaned out if you go this route. You wouldn't want these in your engine or turbo. Goodluck.

yeah but i need to know what size the revised lifters are the holes at least.... anyone..?

 

[Gromit]

yeah but i need to know what size the revised lifters are the holes at least.... anyone..?

At the bottom of the page here http://www.vfaq.com/mods/lifters.html is a description of the different revisions of the lifters. I would agree with ultimatedsm in that you should not just drill out your existing lifters - you're asking for trouble here. A new set can be had on eBay for roughly $100.

As for your new injectors, they are rated at 680 cc but tend to flow more like 650's because they are rated at a higher fuel pressure than that of a DSM. Your SAFC will be able to compensate for them - baseline correction at 650 cc is approx. -31% - but altering the airflow signal this much will put you on a lower map with correspondingly higher timing. This is the difficulty in tuning with piggybacks like the SAFC. Typically, this results in knock, which you already have plenty of...

You've got a lot of knock through a wide range of rpm's - some of it likely real & some likely phantom knock. You'd do well to try 1 thing at a time to isolate/eliminate the causes. In 1 of your replies you said you turned down the boost & the car runs fine. If you're at a boost level where you've got no knock in any rpm, gradually raise it until you start to get some knock, then determine it that is real or phantom & work up from there.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

see the thing is that my bro works on CNC (computer numeric control) machines.. he would drill them for me.. the Hass mill is accurate till like 0.0005 or so

see there is a prob with that knock, it retards the timing.. right?

but if i can't do nothing oh.. well..

by the way.. i just received new injectors today.. i got 680s and i just thought....are they too big for stock ecu.. my AFC will control them fine, but won't the timing be of..?

Sorry, your stock ECU can't control anything larger than 510CC (510's will be a little rich, but won't flood your engine). The SAFC can control up to 650's, I am sure you can control 680's with them. It will give you some timing issues though, your ECU will start to advance timing because it thinks there is not a lot of air going into the cylinder. I would get some kind of key driver chip for them or a DSMLINK.

 

[polishshark]

At the bottom of the page here http://www.vfaq.com/mods/lifters.html is a description of the different revisions of the lifters. I would agree with ultimatedsm in that you should not just drill out your existing lifters - you're asking for trouble here. A new set can be had on eBay for roughly $100.

As for your new injectors, they are rated at 680 cc but tend to flow more like 650's because they are rated at a higher fuel pressure than that of a DSM. Your SAFC will be able to compensate for them - baseline correction at 650 cc is approx. -31% - but altering the airflow signal this much will put you on a lower map with correspondingly higher timing. This is the difficulty in tuning with piggybacks like the SAFC. Typically, this results in knock, which you already have plenty of...

You've got a lot of knock through a wide range of rpm's - some of it likely real & some likely phantom knock. You'd do well to try 1 thing at a time to isolate/eliminate the causes. In 1 of your replies you said you turned down the boost & the car runs fine. If you're at a boost level where you've got no knock in any rpm, gradually raise it until you start to get some knock, then determine it that is real or phantom & work up from there.

See I hate to spend more money if that's not a prob.. i already got bigger injectors and FPR, spent $300 and still getting that knock.. I want to try free solutions 1st before spending more money .. Does anyone have/had the same prob.?
Even with lower boost i still get the knock... it's something ... it pisses me off.

 

[polishshark]

Here is me stepping on gas in neutral.
clearly i'm getting phantom knock. i just don't know what... it felt like it was because of vibration, i'm gonna have to look into that. Any ideas??
TIMA TPS RPM KNCK
12° 16.9% 969 0
12° 19.2% 969 0
14° 19.2% 1000 0
16° 19.2% 1063 0
21° 19.2% 1250 0
25° 23.1% 1469 0
28° 27.5% 1719 3
26° 31.0% 2094 10
23° 34.1% 2531 30
19° 36.9% 2938 42
17° 37.3% 3625 43
17° 36.9% 4000 43
18° 22.7% 4219 43
24° 11.0% 4156 37
29° 11.0% 4188 32
31° 11.0% 3938 22
33° 11.0% 3750 13
36° 11.0% 3906 3
39° 11.0% 3531 0
41° 11.0% 3563 0
40° 11.0% 3469 0
40° 11.0% 3281 0
39° 11.0% 3188 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 2938 0
39° 11.0% 2813 0
39° 11.0% 2719 0
38° 11.0% 2594 0
38° 11.0% 2500 0
38° 11.0% 2375 0
38° 11.0% 2281 0
38° 11.0% 2156 0
37° 22.4% 2094 0
37° 34.9% 2063 0
33° 44.3% 2031 0
27° 54.1% 2531 0
28° 62.4% 3063 5
28° 67.8% 3813 14
25° 68.2% 4531 23
23° 66.3% 4906 23
24° 42.7% 5656 22
24° 87.8% 5625 21
34° 13.3% 1156 10
214° 13.3% 94 0
45° 11.0% 4969 0
45° 11.0% 4813 0
45° 11.0% 4625 0
44° 11.0% 4469 0
44° 11.0% 4375 0
44° 11.0% 4125 0
43° 11.0% 4000 0
42° 11.0% 3781 0
41° 11.0% 3781 0
40° 11.0% 3750 0
40° 11.0% 3469 0
40° 11.0% 3344 0
40° 11.0% 3219 0
40° 11.0% 3125 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 2906 0
39° 11.0% 2781 0
39° 11.0% 2688 0
38° 11.0% 2594 0
38° 11.0% 2500 0
38° 11.0% 2375 0
38° 11.0% 2313 0
38° 11.0% 2156 0
37° 11.0% 2094 0
37° 11.0% 1969 0
35° 11.0% 1875 0
33° 11.0% 1781 0
30° 11.0% 1719 0
29° 11.0% 1656 0
27° 11.0% 1563 0
25° 11.0% 1500 0
23° 11.0% 1375 0
21° 11.0% 1313 0
18° 11.0% 1219 0
17° 11.0% 1156 0
15° 11.0% 1063 0
14° 11.0% 1031 0
13° 11.0% 1000 0
12° 11.0% 938 0
12° 11.0% 906 0
11° 11.0% 875 0
11° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 813 0
9° 11.0% 781 0
9° 11.0% 781 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 719 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 750 0
8° 11.0% 781 0
9° 11.0% 781 0
9° 11.0% 813 0
9° 15.7% 813 0
10° 32.9% 844 0
11° 48.2% 938 0
10° 62.0% 1188 1
14° 77.6% 1719 6
14° 94.9% 2094 13
19° 99.6% 2531 26
17° 100.0% 3125 43
16° 100.0% 3594 43
16° 100.0% 4031 43
15° 83.1% 5000 43
15° 52.2% 5563 43
16° 35.7% 5813 43
17° 22.0% 5844 43
23° 11.0% 5594 35
33° 11.0% 5313 25
36° 99.6% 5188 17
40° 11.0% 5156 6
43° 11.0% 4875 0
45° 11.0% 4688 0
44° 11.0% 4531 0
44° 11.0% 4375 0
43° 11.0% 4219 0
42° 11.0% 4031 0
42° 11.0% 4000 0
41° 11.0% 3906 0
40° 11.0% 3719 0
40° 11.0% 3625 0
40° 11.0% 3344 0
40° 11.0% 3281 0
39° 11.0% 3094 0
39° 11.0% 3000 0
39° 11.0% 2938 0
39° 11.0% 2844 0
39° 11.0% 2750 0
38° 11.0% 2656 0
38° 11.0% 2563 0
38° 11.0% 2469 0
38° 11.0% 2344 0
38° 11.0% 2250 0
38° 11.0% 2125 0
37° 11.0% 2063 0
37° 11.0% 1938 0
35° 11.0% 1875 0
32° 11.0% 1813 0
30° 11.0% 1719 0
29° 11.0% 1625 0
26° 11.0% 1563 0
24° 11.0% 1469 0
23° 11.0% 1375 0
21° 11.0% 1313 0
19° 11.0% 1219 0
17° 11.0% 1156 0
16° 11.0% 1125 0
16° 11.0% 1063 0
14° 11.0% 1031 0
13° 11.0% 969 0
13° 11.0% 969 0
12° 11.0% 938 0
12° 11.0% 906 0
11° 11.0% 875 0
11° 11.0% 875 0
11° 11.0% 875 0
11° 11.0% 875 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 11.0% 844 0
10° 20.0% 844 0
10° 35.3% 844 0
12° 48.6% 969 0
10° 58.0% 1219 0
13° 65.1% 1656 0
16° 68.6% 2031 5
21° 69.0% 2531 5
25° 69.0% 2969 29
21° 68.2% 3594 43
16° 63.9% 4188 43
17° 60.8% 4906 43
16° 59.6% 5438 43
17° 57.3% 6156 43
17° 42.4% 1063 43
110° 13.7% 6719 42
20° 11.0% 6281 36
32° 11.0% 5938 25
37° 11.0% 5719 14
41° 11.0% 1063 4
214° 13.3% 1063
43° 11.0% 4063 0
41° 11.0% 3906 0
41° 11.0% 4031 0
41° 11.0% 3844 0
40° 11.0% 3656 0
40° 11.0% 3656 0
40° 11.0% 3313 0
40° 11.0% 3219 0
39° 11.0% 3094 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 2938 0
39° 11.0% 2781 0
39° 11.0% 2719 0
38° 11.0% 2594 0
38° 11.0% 2500 0
38° 11.0% 2406 0
38° 11.0% 2281 0
38° 11.0% 2219 0
37° 11.0% 2063 0
37° 11.0% 2000 0
36° 11.0% 1875 0
33° 11.0% 1813 0
30° 11.0% 1719 0
28° 11.0% 1625 0
27° 11.0% 1563 0
25° 11.0% 1500 0
24° 11.0% 1406 0
21° 11.0% 1313 0
19° 11.0% 1250 0
17° 11.0% 1188 0
16° 11.0% 1125 0
16° 11.0% 1063 0
14° 11.0% 1031 0
13° 11.0% 1000 0
13° 11.0% 1000 0
13° 11.0% 969 0
12° 11.0% 938 0
12° 11.0% 938 0
11° 11.0% 906 0
11° 18.8% 906 0
11° 36.9% 938 0
14° 42.4% 1063 1
13° 45.9% 1281 5
13° 48.2% 1688 5
17° 48.6% 2250 5
24° 48.6% 2719 19
21° 48.6% 3406 43
16° 49.0% 3719 43
16° 49.0% 4250 43
17° 48.6% 5000 43
17° 45.9% 38
43.5% 1500 98
24° 0.4% 1063
214° 13.3% 4969 224
45° 11.0% 4719 0
45° 11.0% 4625 0
44° 11.0% 4469 3
42° 11.0% 4438 0
42° 11.0% 4156 0
42° 11.0% 4000 0
42° 11.0% 3813 0
41° 11.0% 3719 0
41° 11.0% 3625 0
40° 11.0% 3438 0
40° 11.0% 3313 0
40° 11.0% 3281 0
39° 11.0% 3156 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 2875 0
39° 11.0% 2813 0
39° 11.0% 2750 0
38° 11.0% 2625 0
38° 11.0% 2531 0
38° 11.0% 2406 0
38° 11.0% 2313 0
38° 11.0% 2219 0
37° 11.0% 2125 0
37° 11.0% 2031 0
37° 11.0% 1938 0
35° 11.0% 1844 0
32° 11.0% 1750 0
30° 11.0% 1656 0
27° 11.0% 1594 0
26° 11.0% 1531 0
24° 11.0% 1438 0
22° 11.0% 1344 0
20° 11.0% 1250 0
18° 11.0% 1188 0
16° 11.0% 1156 0
16° 11.0% 1094 0
15° 11.0% 1063 0
14° 11.0% 1031 0
13° 18.4% 1000 0
13° 36.1% 1000 0
16° 42.0% 1125 0
16° 42.4% 1313 0
18° 42.4% 1844 0
22° 42.4% 2281 4
25° 42.4% 2844 32
20° 42.4% 3281 43
17° 42.0% 4031 43
17° 41.6% 4406 43
17° 40.0% 4906 43
18° 38.8% 7000 96
214° 37.6% 5875 43
18° 36.1% 6313 43
19° 13.3% 6250 42
23° 12.9% 6125 31
35° 11.0% 5750 21
39° 11.0% 1063 224
13.3% 813 0
50° 11.0% 5094 96
45° 11.0% 7969 0
45° 11.0% 4969 0
44° 11.0% 4594 0
44° 11.0% 4500 0
43° 11.0% 4406 0
43° 11.0% 4094 0
42° 11.0% 4188 0
41° 11.0% 3813 0
41° 11.0% 3938 0
40° 11.0% 3531 0
40° 11.0% 3625 0
40° 11.0% 3438 0
40° 11.0% 3188 0
39° 11.0% 3094 0
39° 11.0% 3031 0
39° 11.0% 2906 0
39° 11.0% 2844 0
39° 11.0% 2750 0
38° 11.0% 2656 0
38° 11.0% 2563 0
38° 11.0% 2438 0
38° 11.0% 2344 0
38° 11.0% 2250 0
37° 11.0% 2125 0
37° 11.0% 2031 0
37° 11.0% 1906 0
34° 11.0% 1844 0
31° 11.0% 1781 0
30° 11.0% 1688
23.9% 1125 0
15° 34.5% 1063 0
18° 38.0% 1125 0
17° 39.2% 1656 0
20° 39.2% 7000 34
110° 38.8% 2719 13
25° 38.4% 3281 28
23° 34.1% 3688 224
19° 32.9% 4031 43
19° 34.1% 4500 43

 

[polishshark]

How does the knock sensor work does is look for a vibration or a sound?

 

[fallenauthority]

A log of you free-revving the car will tell us nothing, the car has to be under load during the log, preferably in 3rd gear. I believe the knock sensor looks for the pinging sound that knock makes. Which is why phantom knock can occur by random things in your engine bay rattling, vibrating and making noise.

 

[brute]

The knock sensor for a DSM engine is nothing more than a microphone. It picks up engine noise - all of it. There is no signal processing or filtering.

Also,

the ECU only 'listens' for knock in certain portions of the engine cycle.

 

[polishshark]

ok.. so anyideas on what it could be?

 

[polishshark]

A log of you free-revving the car will tell us nothing, the car has to be under load during the log, preferably in 3rd gear. I believe the knock sensor looks for the pinging sound that knock makes. Which is why phantom knock can occur by random things in your engine bay rattling, vibrating and making noise.

have you seen my previous logs? well this knock looks the same as the one from the logs... which says something, don't you think?

 

[fallenauthority]

It is most likely phantom knock on a lot of it, but chances are there is some underlying true knock. Look around your engine bay for anything loose that could rattle around.

 

[KeltonDSMer]

The knock sensor is a peizoelectric crystal that produces a voltage when it is deflected. Sound is vibration, haven't you heard that atmosphere track? When the fuel pre-ignites before the spark goes off, the pressure spike in the cylinder shakes the block and the voltage signal produced by the knock sensor is seen by the ECU as knock. Any vibration can cause the sensor to produce a voltage so any knock seen when not under load is usually not actually pre-ignition.

 

[polishshark]

The knock sensor is a peizoelectric crystal that produces a voltage when it is deflected. Sound is vibration, haven't you heard that atmosphere track? When the fuel pre-ignites before the spark goes off, the pressure spike in the cylinder shakes the block and the voltage signal produced by the knock sensor is seen by the ECU as knock. Any vibration can cause the sensor to produce a voltage so any knock seen when not under load is usually not actually pre-ignition.

yeah! but my ecu doesn't know that and it messes up my timing, any ideas on how to help it? i'll look for ratling and try to remove that...

 

[Raph]

i hope you dont have a cracked manifold causing phamtom knock (yes,weve seen everything on this board )

do a timing belt job recently? is your oil pump balance shaft off? ( 360 off) ?? thazt would cause a nasty vibration at 2700 -3700 rpms .. causing phantom knock ..like on your log..

look into it.

 

[polishshark]

i hope you dont have a cracked manifold causing phamtom knock (yes,weve seen everything on this board )

do a timing belt job recently? is your oil pump balance shaft off? ( 360 off) ?? thazt would cause a nasty vibration at 2700 -3700 rpms .. causing phantom knock ..like on your log..

look into it.

my balance shafts are off... but the mani is not cracked
so... what are you saying that i'm out of luck?

 

[nightspeed87]

i think it was 20 or 23 ... i'm not talking about the knock above 3000 rpm i'm talking about the knock below 3000
the prob with torque wrench is that i cann't get there with it...

If you ever get in the weight reduction/ engine bay clean up market, by removing the a/c compressor youll be able to reach the knock sensor a lot easier .

And I agree with ultimatedsm about turning the boost down to 15lbs and no more than that until you get bigger injecs. You guys are asking for trouble just to go a little faster. Wait till you get the inj and I suppose at least a safc to start running that amount of boost, but in the mean time theres still other ways to make the car faster without turning up boost in the terms of intercooler/ porting/ head work/ motormount-suspension upgrades/ weight reductions.

The knock sensor is a peizoelectric crystal that produces a voltage when it is deflected. Sound is vibration, haven't you heard that atmosphere track? When the fuel pre-ignites before the spark goes off, the pressure spike in the cylinder shakes the block and the voltage signal produced by the knock sensor is seen by the ECU as knock. Any vibration can cause the sensor to produce a voltage so any knock seen when not under load is usually not actually pre-ignition.

My engine vibrates a lot and will vibrate more when I get my upgrade solid motor mounts because I dont have balance shafts and right now Im open dp.

And on my ecu keydiver chip www.dsmchips.com
I got a feature were my octane value resets everytime the car is turned off and turned back on, so if the car pulled timing it resets.
And I also go the phantom knock elimination thing were it tells the ecu to ignore knock when its not boosting. ( Im starting to feel like that feature was a mistake, but then again I dont know. I mean at least I wont get phantom knock I guess.)

And before I got a new head when my lifters used to tap I used 20w 50 oil and it seemed to stop the tapping for the most part.

 

[polishshark]

If you ever get in the weight reduction/ engine bay clean up market, by removing the a/c compressor youll be able to reach the knock sensor a lot easier .

I don't have an ac.

And I agree with ultimatedsm about turning the boost down to 15lbs and no more than that until you get bigger injecs. You guys are asking for trouble just to go a little faster. Wait till you get the inj and I suppose at least a safc to start running that amount of boost, but in the mean time theres still other ways to make the car faster without turning up boost in the terms of intercooler/ porting/ head work/ motormount-suspension upgrades/ weight reductions.

well if you read the thread, you'll find out that I do have bigger injectors now and I always had maft pro

 

[boosted86]

youll be running way to lean, and ## going to get det guarenteed,you need to geta a fpr to bring you to 15lbs safetly, minium

 

[GVR4592]

youll be running way to lean, and ## going to get det guarenteed,you need to geta a fpr to bring you to 15lbs safetly, minium

Can you translate that into English?

 

[polishshark]

youll be running way to lean, and ## going to get det guarenteed,you need to geta a fpr to bring you to 15lbs safetly, minium

I do have FPR, and don't know what you're trying to say.

 

[polishshark]

well I tried to get rid of the phantom knock and failed.. I'm thinking of taking the knock sensor out and just closing the circuit... hell when tunning newer cars ppl don't look for knock the look at AFR and power.. and that's what I'll do... I got Meth injection.. front mount ... that should take care of the knock..

 

[fallenauthority]

well I tried to get rid of the phantom knock and failed.. I'm thinking of taking the knock sensor out and just closing the circuit... hell when tunning newer cars ppl don't look for knock the look at AFR and power.. and that's what I'll do... I got Meth injection.. front mount ... that should take care of the knock..

Not a good idea at all. If you go that route I can almost guarantee you will be back here with a thread soon "Help I think I blew my motor". And no they dont just tune for a/f and power, they do take knock into consideration, its a necessity if you want a safe tune. You are horribly mis-informed.

 

[polishshark]

Not a good idea at all. If you go that route I can almost guarantee you will be back here with a thread soon "Help I think I blew my motor". And no they dont just tune for a/f and power, they do take knock into consideration, its a necessity if you want a safe tune. You are horribly mis-informed.

well then tell me what to do with the phantom knock.. is there any way to get rid of it?

 

[FORMONTOYA]

The only way to get rid of phantom knock is to either fix the issue causing it, or use a program such as DSMLink in order to change the "threshold" settings for the knock sensor.