2.3L or 2.0

[boost97gst]

So after finding my cyl 2 rings shot i decided that if i continue pumping money into dsms i want to do it right: AWD. No more fwd

Just looked at a 95 auto. Its actually in really really good condition. Not running. Guy says "fuel pump relay" Well that means it could be alot of things but im not concerned with that. I would immediately ditch the crank sensor and put in a 1g cas. (btw, just learned about that and now i wonder why anyone still has a crank sensor!)

So, its an auto, keep that in mind. I could go with a 2.3L or stay 2.0. I will be running e85 exclusively on a large t3 turbo. Think s364 or one of FPs 75lb/min turbos they have. What compression pistons should i go for? Im thinking 10:1 on a 2.0 but maybe only 9:1 on the 2.3L. Cams on the 2.3L would need to be at least kelford 272 size right?

Side question: What can be done to an auto to beef it up? Do i even need an aftermarket converter? I know the tcase will need treatment as well as the rear dif to handle 600whp. I want to do this build right. Probably shopping at either JAM or SIM for block and head.

my heads spinnin but im ready to jump back in asap. Probably making anoffer tomorrow that he will accept and picking it up wednesday.

 

[94allwheeldsm]

I sent my 2.3 to SIM to get built! I'm rolling on 1,200mi and been beating it on 30 lbs on a conservative tune. Allen is the shiz and will work with you!

Autos do not really need built until you start pushing 500+ and will hold into the low 10's some even lower.
Also some converters have lower or higher stall speeds so it all depends.

P.S I Fuc**ng love my 2.3L!

 

[boosting_pwr]

Both the 2.0 and the 2.3 have made good numbers on the dyno and the 1/4. It all depends on what you want. I drove my stock 7 bolt on an FP Green and I loved it but she ended up giving up on me so I decided to call Allen at SIM to build me a 2.3 with some 8.5:1 pistons and I'm not going to lie but I love my 2.3. I did change the setup a lot as I'm now running an HX40 instead of the Green. I really cant compare a built 2.0 to a 2.3 as my 2.0 was stock.

Personally I think once the boost kicks in you are going to have fun regardless. I will admit I feel the 2.3 has a lot more get up and go in the lower rpm's but I am limited to how high I can rev in comparison to a built 2.0.

 

[TSIfreek]

2.0 for me for the life I own a DSM. Im on manual as well have no desire to go autol. Auto set ups are slightly diffrent and normally dont rev as high so you can get away with a 2.3 and it will still live along time.

 

[My1GLaser]

Go with the 2.3L with the auto. It will help spool the larger frame turbo and get out of the hole faster. 10:1 on E-85 will also help out the spool tremendously. Yes you will need/want a converter! Don't cheap out on it!!! With the right converter, you might not need nitrous off the line!!!

 

[Speedemon636]

Take your time and read through this. http://www.kidzuku.com/StrokeOrNot.pdf
Tons of good info in there that will help you decide 2.0 or 2.3. I personally am going to stay with a 2.0 just because I don't want to mess with the engine dynamics that much. Plus the world's fastest 4G63T is a 2.0 and not 2.3 Good enough for me

 

[boost97gst]

Side load is a concern for me. Thats inherent in any stroker. I might just stick with the 2.0 with even higher 10.5:1 pistons and plan to rev to 9k.
Im seeing another 11grand coming out of pocket after all is said n done. 22 grand to build 2 eclipses . F MY MACHINIST. Thing didnt even last 5k miles. Shiiiiiiiiiiit maaaaaaaaaaaaan

 

[SonySlave]

You haven't said what you want to do with the car. Drag car, street car, or a little of both? That will dictate the ideal setup for your car. Automatics require a lot more compromise depending on what you want to do with the car compared to manuals. If you'll be racing at the track at competitive events with specific classes, what class will you be running? What are the rules? Do they allow nitrous or more than one power adder? This will all come into play. I'm not going to answer all of the different combinations that are possible for a given situation but I'm more than happy to help when I know what you want to do.

I will, however, give you a few basic helpful hints. The automatic trans is very beefy and usually doesn't require much work to hold a lot of power. Really, a bone stock trans with the "blue wire mod" (increases fluid line pressure) will hold a significant amount of power. When I first converted to auto I ran close to 50 10 second 1/4mi passes with a 168k junkyard trans with nothing but the blue wire mod and a welded center diff. The front clutch pack eventually wore out and I had to rebuild. My recommendation would be a shift box from ForcedFour as it applies full fluid line pressure like the blue wire mod and gives you the ability to change the shift points for each individual gear. Plus it allows for manual push-button shifting if you desire. Rebuilds are really pretty basic. Front and rear clutch packs and other maintenance/wear items get replaced. The real magic happens in the valve body. Each company that offers rebuilds has their own valve body mods that they do. That's what sets each company apart. The clutch packs and other things are pretty generic.

An aftermarket converter is extremely important but choice of converter is dictated greatly by what you want to do with the car as I mentioned above. Street cars are usually going to want a tighter stalled converter so that fluid pressures don't skyrocket and ruin the trans when driving around. Tighter converters will hurt racing performance though. Loose stalled converters are great for racing but are terrible for street driving because they slip quite a bit which increases fluid pressure drastically, potentially hurting your trans over a short period of time.

You can work with that. Your engine, turbo, and converter choice will be dictated by what you want to do with your car.

 

[boost97gst]

Ok, great info. It will be a street car. A weekend warrior basically. But being an auto awd its mandatory that i take it down to the track a few times! So stock-ish converter would be best?
There will be no weight reduction or anything race oriented in it besides a shitload of power. Im several months from possibly even starting this project as i cant procure a shop area to work on it. Im almost considering building a shop just for this. My wife might finally snap if i do that though haha.

Cams? Im thinking even on the 2.0 i would want kelford 272s or similar. The crower 272s i have now are just not enough. they peter out pretty quick past 6k. I dont really like them all that much.

 

[SonySlave]

Ok, since it's going to be a 95% street car, I'd build a 2.2L or 2.3L. I personally love the off-boost pep that strokers provide for street cars. The 2.2L would give you extra grunt of a stroker but a little better rev range than the 2.3L. The 2.3L would likely be a little cheaper and easier to come by parts since it's been such a popular engine for so many years. A little more grunt than the 2.2L but a little more limited on rev range. Now, the rev range is relative. I know guy revving the 2.3Ls out to 9k and beyond without issue but the general consensus would say that isn't normal or safe. Most that do that modify their bearings and other things. Most aren't willing to do that so they keep the 2.3L revs under 8500. The 2.2L would keep you a little safer up toward 9k due to the better rod ratio. Either motor is great.

The 2.2L would use a 4G63 block, 94mm crank, standard 150mm rods, and a piston with a pin raised 3mm. CP is the only company I know of that has an off-the-shelf piston for a 6-bolt. Manley carries an off-the-shelf piston for the 7-bolt in 8.5 or 10:1 compression. Eagle builds 6 and 7 bolt 94mm cranks and Wiseco/K1 builds one for 7-bolts. Depends on whether you do a 6 or 7 bolt.

The 2.3L would use a 4G63 block, 100mm crank, standard 150mm rods, and a piston with a pin raised 6mm. Every piston company out there builds pistons for 6 and 7 bolts for the 2.3L. Plus, you can use an OEM 100mm crank from a 2.4L, or Manley, K1, or Eagle build them as well.

My favorite cams are the GSC S2s. Great low end torque, great idle, great drivability, and great top end power. I had Kelford 272s and wasn't super happy with them at idle and cruise. They were great for top end though. You won't go wrong either way, I just feel the S2s were better all around. They have also proven to work amazingly well on my 153mm rod 10.5:1 2.2L.

A stock re-stalled converter would be great for you. Lots of companies build them and do a great job. IPT, Hughes, Sinister Speed, Level 10, and Bradco are all great companies that do simple re-stalls. Some are more expensive than others. There are even quite a few DSMers that have their local converter companies re-stall their converters and are usually dirt cheap. You could even run a bone stock converter if you'd like but I wouldn't recommend it as some people have ballooned stock converters due to increased load. With most of the re-stalls that companies perform they also add anti-ballooning plates to the converter cover. More of piece-of-mind than anything else.

Your transfer case and rear diff really don't need any work for street cars. There is a big 300M shaft upgrade for the t-cases that's available from a few companies but that would also require a DriveshaftShop driveshaft (or custom from another shop) and larger yoke for the larger shaft. Now, a street car that isn't trying to stall up the car or do crazy launches I'd say doesn't really need the upgrade. And the rear diff is great as-is as long as you aren't wheel hopping the rear tires. Very rare to break an auto 4-bolt rear.

Now, about going to the track. If you ever take the car to the track, if you're using a big 62-67mm turbo, you'll be EXTREMELY unlikely to stall up a turbo that size with only a re-stall, stroker or not. Therefore racing at the track will be very frustrating. However, a small 65-75shot of nitrous would help stall up the converter on the start line. Without it, I wouldn't waste my money at the race track.

 

[boost97gst]

You are very very helpful. So you think the 2.3L is a reliable engine? Say if i just buy the SIM stage 3 2.3L? Im gun shy after having this one bite the dust so quick. Its apples to oranges though as far as machine work quality. Im sure SIM or JAM both build very good engines.
Whats your take on CR for a 2.3L? 10:1 too high for e85, should i stay a bit safer at 9:1?

The car wont see many launches, mainly low speed roll-ons or soft launches. i dont like breaking things and im not looking for a 9second car(maybe a 10.5 car tho?)

I would be open to buying the parts and having a local machinist do the work but i cant trust these locals around here with the 4g. Been bit twice.

 

[SonySlave]

I wouldn't be worried about the reliability for either engine. Tune it properly, keep up with maintenance, and don't rev it out to 9k every time you get on the throttle and I don't see any reason it would be any less reliable than a 2.0L. Any compression ratio will work well. 10:1 isn't too much for E85. I'd ask whoever you want to build your engine their opinion. I would only do the higher compression if it didn't cost anymore. But, any way that you can increase response with the automatic is a good thing. High compression and a stroker will do that.

I've never worked with SIM before so I can't speak to their builds. English Racing in Washington State built my 2.2L and it's amazing. I've been an English customer for close to 10 years, even after moving to Maryland. Great product. Buschur builds great motors as well. If you've seen good results from SIM, then go for it. SIM's $2349 is pretty good price as well for a 2.3L with a Eagle or Manley crank. The cranks are usually $500-$600 on their own.

 

[boost97gst]

Yup the price is looking really good as long as shipping doesnt wipe me out. Ah well.

The guy agreed to my offer. Picking up the car tomorrow. $900. Its a fair deal.

What do you guys think about reusing some timing components, like pulleys and the tensioner? Water pump, oil pump? All these are OEM and have less than 5k miles on them. Thats a lot of money to drop if i dont have to. Im fairly certain the oil pump/water pump are fine as are most other components.
Just looking for opinion

AND YES, i will def replace timing belt!!!!!!

 

[camfast]

This is an interesting thread with lots of good real life info from sonyslave.

I don't understand how some cars are able to stall up with strokers and big turbos? Take for example Nate Crismon with the gizmo vr4. I know that it has a basic 2.3 on e85 with an fp3794 and that thing could spool up off the line within 4-5 give or take while running mid-low 9s at nearly 150mph. Mind you this is with a stock restall and nothing too fancy. Now the tune is what sets it apart but still amazing to have a setup that i would think it's completely streetable.

With this being said how can the op not be able to spool a 62mm on a stroker off the line?

Yup the price is looking really good as long as shipping doesnt wipe me out. Ah well.

The guy agreed to my offer. Picking up the car tomorrow. $900. Its a fair deal.

What do you guys think about reusing some timing components, like pulleys and the tensioner? Water pump, oil pump? All these are OEM and have less than 5k miles on them. Thats a lot of money to drop if i dont have to. Im fairly certain the oil pump/water pump are fine as are most other components.
Just looking for opinion

AND YES, i will def replace timing belt!!!!!!

I would absolutely make sure that your oil pump is clean and that all clearances are in spec (no play or binding). Run an OEM water pump and use a new tensioner for piece of mind. I basically like to change all parts brand new when building a motor to minimize potential risk. Hope this helps