2.3 Stroker...Balance shaft question!!!!!

[xtreme-gsx]

Quick question guys! I just finished my 2.3 stroker build and was wondering if I should be doing the balance shaft elimination. A local builder/shop around said they'd highly recommended putting the balance shaft on. I did a search on this and a couple of guys mentioned that the 2.4 crank will be hitting the balance shaft (in some cases)....is this correct? I would rather get rid of the balance shaft.....and be done with it. What's best for the 2.3 stroker block.....what do you guys think? Thanks in advance!

 

[boostedinaz]

Quick question guys! I just finished my 2.3 stroker build and was wondering if I should be doing the balance shaft elimination. A local builder/shop around said they'd highly recommended putting the balance shaft on. I did a search on this and a couple of guys mentioned that the 2.4 crank will be hitting the balance shaft (in some cases)....is this correct? I would rather get rid of the balance shaft.....and be done with it. What's best for the 2.3 stroker block.....what do you guys think? Thanks in advance!

Why didnt you ask the builder why he thought they should stay in?

I would get rid of them there is no reason to keep then in a performance motor.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Why didnt you ask the builder why he thought they should stay in?

I would get rid of them there is no reason to keep then in a performance motor.

Wow, please do a little research before offering advice like that. KEEP the balance shafts man, you can pull em out all day on the 2.0 but removing them from a 2.0 6bolt block and then using the 2.4 crank can be a VERY bad choice. The vibration in that stroker is MUCH much worse off so keeping the balance shafts in the block is imperative! At least if you want your motor to last anyway.

If you would like to know more look no further than JAM's 2.3 kits, they all keep the shafts.

 

[chrisdob30]

^^^Are you serious WTF . As long as he has a harmonic damper on his crank pulley he is ok. Your motor will stay together just fine. Saying that just because a shop does there kits that way doesn't mean it's right.

Chris

 

[Lunch_Box]

Wow, please do a little research before offering advice like that. KEEP the balance shafts man, you can pull em out all day on the 2.0 but removing them from a 2.0 6bolt block and then using the 2.4 crank can be a VERY bad choice. The vibration in that stroker is MUCH much worse off so keeping the balance shafts in the block is imperative! At least if you want your motor to last anyway.

If you would like to know more look no further than JAM's 2.3 kits, they all keep the shafts.

Wow are you serious? Please take your head out of your ass before offering advise. The balance shafts are there for your ass not for your engine, take them out.

 

[Savage Talon]

My opinion is to balance the crank and remove the shafts.

 

[boostedinaz]

Wow, please do a little research before offering advice like that. KEEP the balance shafts man, you can pull em out all day on the 2.0 but removing them from a 2.0 6bolt block and then using the 2.4 crank can be a VERY bad choice. The vibration in that stroker is MUCH much worse off so keeping the balance shafts in the block is imperative! At least if you want your motor to last anyway.

If you would like to know more look no further than JAM's 2.3 kits, they all keep the shafts.

Hey thanks for you advice Im still new to this whole DSM thing.

 

[xtreme-gsx]

Thanks for the reply...but that's what I heard also; the 2.4 crank in the 2.0 block gets pretty crazy inside (harmonic wise). Even with the crank balanced and all there is still more vibration with the stroker settup then the normal 2.0 settup....please correct me if i'm wrong, I'm always willing to learn! Again thanks!

 

[boostedinaz]

Thanks for the reply...but that's what I heard also; the 2.4 crank in the 2.0 block gets pretty crazy inside (harmonic wise). Even with the crank balanced and all there is still more vibration with the stroker settup then the normal 2.0 settup....please correct me if i'm wrong, I'm always willing to learn! Again thanks!

Im guessing the guys that told you this are older muscle car guys. Both cranks are balanced the same (inernally/etrenally) the only difference is the stroke. IF you have a good harmonic balncer then the motor should be fine. If not them throw back at you machinist and tell him his balacing job sucks. They were only but in to keep some vibration from annoying Joe Consumer. There are a ton of people running with out then in all kinds of motors and they are fine. I bet this tale comes from old school Chevy motor that were turned into strokers. They would take the crank from one motot toos it in another and bam extra cubes. The problme was that they were balanced differently so the machinst had to do ALOT of work to get them to run smooth. This it self is old as you can now buy a crank with almost any stroke to fit in any block.

 

[Street Surgeon]

^^^Are you serious WTF . As long as he has a harmonic damper on his crank pulley he is ok. Your motor will stay together just fine. Saying that just because a shop does there kits that way doesn't mean it's right.

Chris

I'm sorry what experience if any do you have with stroked 2.0s? Do a little 2.3 research, a lot of them seem to have VIBRATION related problems i.e. flywheel bolts backing out etc. Gee, why do you suppose that is? Could it be.... oooooh maybe... EXCESS vibration??? Do the balance shafts help cancel out vibration? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Also I'm not just basing this reccommendation off of ONE shops advice, though what would JAM know they've only been building motors for Extreme's GSX and doing this for quite some time now.

Wow are you serious? Please take your head out of your ass before offering advise. The balance shafts are there for your ass not for your engine, take them out.

Yeah you're right, the engineers totally put those in just to make it a little more comfy for us and not for the benefit of the motor whatsoever Honestly I'd say the majority of people having problems with their 2.3's are people that run them SANS the shafts...

Realistically lets look at it, what is there to gain by removing the shafts? You get a few more ponies, and potentially endanger your motor. Worth it??? Hell I paid too much for mine that's not a risk I'm willing to take, I'll gladly keep em in there and just tune or run a bigger turbo to make that power back up.

 

[boostedinaz]

I'm sorry what experience if any do you have with stroked 2.0s? Do a little 2.3 research, a lot of them seem to have VIBRATION related problems i.e. flywheel bolts backing out etc. Gee, why do you suppose that is? Could it be.... oooooh maybe... EXCESS vibration??? Do the balance shafts help cancel out vibration? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Also I'm not just basing this reccommendation off of ONE shops advice, though what would JAM know they've only been building motors for Extreme's GSX and doing this for quite some time now.


Yeah you're right, the engineers totally put those in just to make it a little more comfy for us and not for the benefit of the motor whatsoever Honestly I'd say the majority of people having problems with their 2.3's are people that run them SANS the shafts...

Realistically lets look at it, what is there to gain by removing the shafts? You get a few more ponies, and potentially endanger your motor. Worth it??? Hell I paid too much for mine that's not a risk I'm willing to take, I'll gladly keep em in there and just tune or run a bigger turbo to make that power back up.

Do these companies have back to back driving coparisons as to the vibration with and without the bshaft? Are they running aftermarket underdrive pulleys?

 

[Street Surgeon]

You would have to ask them yourself. Generally speaking though a company (such as JAM) typically has at least a smidgen of R&D nestled into their products because afterall, who wants to spend time (read money) RE-doing something that's already been done. I know that I myself will provide feedback on the product I recieve, and I'd venture to guess other customers will (and have) as well.

As a cliffnote though, I myself am neither a machinist nor a mechanical engineer. I leave those decisions up to them since afterall, they are the experts. When mitsu put in balance shafts the engineers did it for a reason. Can we take them out and get a few ponies? Sure, and in the 2.0 that seems like a totally viable option due to the engines apparent OVER engineering! Now when you start throwing in other variables like crankshafts designed for different motors, etc... Something that totally changes the motors characteristics... I'd tend to agree with what the experts tell me.

So... Can you pull em out? Certainly, but I personally would NOT reccommend it, and good luck to you if you do I'll keep mine and run a kevlar accessory belt.

 

[boostedinaz]

You would have to ask them yourself. Generally speaking though a company (such as JAM) typically has at least a smidgen of R&D nestled into their products because afterall, who wants to spend time (read money) RE-doing something that's already been done. I know that I myself will provide feedback on the product I recieve, and I'd venture to guess other customers will (and have) as well..

You would be surprised and what some places do and dont do. Im not saying JAM is one of them, but dont just assume they have a good or well backed reason for doing things, unless they have shown you actuall results that can be repeated.

As a cliffnote though, I myself am neither a machinist nor a mechanical engineer. I leave those decisions up to them since afterall, they are the experts. When mitsu put in balance shafts the engineers did it for a reason. Can we take them out and get a few ponies? Sure, and in the 2.0 that seems like a totally viable option due to the engines apparent OVER engineering! Now when you start throwing in other variables like crankshafts designed for different motors, etc... Something that totally changes the motors characteristics... I'd tend to agree with what the experts tell me.

So... Can you pull em out? Certainly, but I personally would NOT reccommend it, and good luck to you if you do I'll keep mine and run a kevlar accessory belt.

This is one of my favorite arguments. So when GM introduced the GN that had no BOV or intercooler that is what is the best design for it? Or what about the DSM tranny only having 4 bolts hold it to the block, is that the best way to do it? 90% of what the manufacturers do is for the everyday man not the performance enthusiast. They also have to fall into price guidlines, how easy it will be to service, and then dont forget the common mistake. Everyone makes them even engineers. Even when they do make a performance car it still has to appeal to Joe Driver in oder to sell enough. There are a host of things on DSM alone that were put in or added on that are NOT good for performance. The bshaft are one of those things.


You are entitled to you opinion eitherway.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Haha, I KNEW you were gonna say that Of course in the end... It's the BEAN COUNTERS that win when a car is made, especially a moderately priced "sports coupe" like ours. However these balance shafts aren't like BOV's, or other "niceities" that were withheld from us. They ADDED these in, and believe you me the last thing an auto manufacturer wants to do is ADD to their own cost in building a product. Like you said, more bolts to hold the tranny to the block would've been great but it would've cost more. If the GM was to have added bov's to their GN's or T-Types it would've been nice but in the end, that would've cost the company more money.

Here we're taking out a componet that was originally designed to dampen the harmonic vibrations (granted the crank is also balanced as well) in the motor. It's not like a vanity mirror here I mean and if mitsu would have felt it was a good idea they most certainly would've had them all come with bse kits as those are much cheaper to manufacture than your typical balance shaft!

Anyway, I agree that manufacturers don't always make the best decisions from our standpoint (as performance minded enthusaists) and removing them on a typical 2.0 is definitely a tried and true method to make some free ponies, but on our strokers (though it's been done by some) I would venture to guess that it has a little more to do with the so-called unreliability that is sometimes associated with these motors. Again, there really aren't enough people out with these to draw any perfect conclusions.

In the end, if you're willing to risk it than more power to you, he asked for advice and mine is to keep them. If you're worried about a belt breaking upgrade to the Power Enterprise balance shaft belt like I am and get the best of both worlds. Reliability, and a nice smooth motor. If I REALLY need an additional 10hp I'll put 93 in her instead of 89.

 

[boostedinaz]

Haha, I KNEW you were gonna say that Of course in the end... It's the BEAN COUNTERS that win when a car is made, especially a moderately priced "sports coupe" like ours. However these balance shafts aren't like BOV's, or other "niceities" that were withheld from us. They ADDED these in, and believe you me the last thing an auto manufacturer wants to do is ADD to their own cost in building a product. Like you said, more bolts to hold the tranny to the block would've been great but it would've cost more. If the GM was to have added bov's to their GN's or T-Types it would've been nice but in the end, that would've cost the company more money.

Here we're taking out a componet that was originally designed to dampen the harmonic vibrations (granted the crank is also balanced as well) in the motor. It's not like a vanity mirror here I mean and if mitsu would have felt it was a good idea they most certainly would've had them all come with bse kits as those are much cheaper to manufacture than your typical balance shaft!

Anyway, I agree that manufacturers don't always make the best decisions from our standpoint (as performance minded enthusaists) and removing them on a typical 2.0 is definitely a tried and true method to make some free ponies, but on our strokers (though it's been done by some) I would venture to guess that it has a little more to do with the so-called unreliability that is sometimes associated with these motors. Again, there really aren't enough people out with these to draw any perfect conclusions.

In the end, if you're willing to risk it than more power to you, he asked for advice and mine is to keep them. If you're worried about a belt breaking upgrade to the Power Enterprise balance shaft belt like I am and get the best of both worlds. Reliability, and a nice smooth motor. If I REALLY need an additional 10hp I'll put 93 in her instead of 89.

I agree, but the harmonic balancer does a ton more work to keep the vibnrations down than anything else in the motor. This is why I asked if they are running after market pulleys. I honestly cant see the hamornis of a propely balanced 2.3 would be ANY worse than a 2.0. If so then they need to get a different machine operator. I have a 383 in my truck and it is balnced with to 0 grams at the front of the crank and .005 at the rear. It has a SFI approved harmonic dampner in it and I can put a cup of water on the air cleaner and there are no ripples. (it has a small can in it I know) That is supposed to be a hard motor to balance or keep from vibrating, but the machinist did it. It sounds like they just toss the crank in with some rods and dont really bother to weigh and properly balance the rotating assembly.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Well supposedly it's balanced very well etc. A lil insurance never hurts though

 

[Ludachris]

Does anyone here have any real world testing data on this subject? Is there any evidence that balance shafts on a stroker are needed? I'm not asking if anyone has tried it without damage. I'm asking if anyone has done any scientific testing and comparisons. Is there any "clear cut" evidence to suggest that it's NOT a good choice to leave them in? Or is it just a theory that it should be okay to remove them?

I'd like to see some data guys - so far it looks like opinions, theories and hearsay. I'm not sure what data JAM has, but they seem to think the shafts need to stay in. If you think they're wrong, show us some data to prove it - and please don't say something like "so-and-so has them removed with no problems". That just tells us it can be done, not that it's the right thing to do. It doesn't tell us whether or not there is actually a critical difference in vibration due to the crank.

You think they should be removed - where's your data to back that statement up? You think they should stay in, where's your data? Please don't just relay info from other sources - we'd like to keep people from doing that around here. That's how hearsay and misinformation spreads.

 

[boostedinaz]

Does anyone here have any real world testing data on this subject? Is there any evidence that balance shafts on a stroker are needed? I'm not asking if anyone has tried it without damage. I'm asking if anyone has done any scientific testing and comparisons. Is there any "clear cut" evidence to suggest that it's NOT a good choice to leave them in? Or is it just a theory that it should be okay to remove them?

I'd like to see some data guys - so far it looks like opinions, theories and hearsay. I'm not sure what data JAM has, but they seem to think the shafts need to stay in. If you think they're wrong, show us some data to prove it - and please don't say something like "so-and-so has them removed with no problems". That just tells us it can be done, not that it's the right thing to do. It doesn't tell us whether or not there is actually a critical difference in vibration due to the crank.

You think they should be removed - where's your data to back that statement up? You think they should stay in, where's your data? Please don't just relay info from other sources - we'd like to keep people from doing that around here. That's how hearsay and misinformation spreads.

I understand what you are saying, but I will tell you right now it wont happen. This is going to be almost impossible to prove other than theory. The only way to do would be to build two EXACT motors and run them exactly the same way. One with and one without. The problem arises when one motor may have been over rev'd at the track or on the dyno while the other one didn't, or one may have a slightly better tune that then next and so on. Even if one motor was run with them in and then with them removed, there are still a ton of factors that could negate the entire test.

If we are looking just for a difference in vibration then perhaps a test could be done by JAM on an engine dyno and see what motor vibrates more. The only problem there is that more vibration doesn't necessarily lead to early engine failure or any engine failure. The main problem in my eyes is just harmonics and with a good damper and a good balance it should be dealt with very well.

Either way it is a good debate.

 

[blackvr4]

So much for the silent shaft

 

[joeracer321]

Guys just to add something here, I have a 2.3L in my shop car, and I have removed the balance shafts. The rotating assembly was balanced at my local machine shop and it produces very little vibration at idle. Unfortunately I usually don't pay much attention to vibration in the upper RPM range, but it must not be bad because I haven't noticed anything unusual. So I would say the reliability issue of leaving them in outweighs the possible vibration. But if someone happens to be running one of the underdrive crank pulleys without a dampener (which I don't recommend) I would consider leaving them in.

 

[damnthecops]

hey man i just did the same setup... and the machine shop took mine out... but what he did was balance every part off the motor then he assembled the motor and rebalanced it... if u havnt gotten your motor back yet then u should get that done...my 2.3 is in full balance

 

[eclipsetuner93]

Well The Truth Is That. The Balance Shaft Has To- Go And You Really Dont Need It At All. Only A Dumb Ass Would Keep The Balance Shaft In Specially If You Are Strocking The Engine. Ass Long As You Dont Put An After Market Under Drive Pulley Youll Be Fine. Reason Why Is Because. They Are Light Weight And Give You A Little Pony Power But They Have No Dampeners And As A Cost To No Balance Shaft Youll Get To Much Vibration. So The Solution To That Is Ass Long As You Have The Stock Harmonic Balancer, Youll Be Fine Or If You Really Need A Light Weight That Has The Dampener. You Can Go To Burshur. So Far They Are The Only People That Are Able To Get These From Japan. That Im Aware Of. So For Thoses That Say Take It Off- I Totally Agree And That Means They Are Real Dsm Tunners And For Those That Give Advise On Keeping It With No Real Or False Explenation And Accuse Others Like They Are Big Time Pro's . Should Either Go Back To Their Honda Civics Or Hit The Books 5 More Times In A Row Before You Offer Advise That Was Just Passed On Lyrics

 

[Batty200]

The main problem with BS isnt the free power it is RELIABILITY. If you rev your motor to higher rpms the bearings in the Balance shaft can spin and block the oil feed holes and lock them up and destroy your motor.

Balance shafts are crappy. If the 4G never had them it would be an almost indestructable motor if maintained properly.


Later

 

[Burnett03]

Well The Truth Is That. The Balance Shaft Has To- Go And You Really Dont Need It At All. Only A Dumb Ass Would Keep The Balance Shaft In Specially If You Are Strocking The Engine. Ass Long As You Dont Put An After Market Under Drive Pulley Youll Be Fine. Reason Why Is Because. They Are Light Weight And Give You A Little Pony Power But They Have No Dampeners And As A Cost To No Balance Shaft Youll Get To Much Vibration. So The Solution To That Is Ass Long As You Have The Stock Harmonic Balancer, Youll Be Fine Or If You Really Need A Light Weight That Has The Dampener. You Can Go To Burshur. So Far They Are The Only People That Are Able To Get These From Japan. That Im Aware Of. So For Thoses That Say Take It Off- I Totally Agree And That Means They Are Real Dsm Tunners And For Those That Give Advise On Keeping It With No Real Or False Explenation And Accuse Others Like They Are Big Time Pro's . Should Either Go Back To Their Honda Civics Or Hit The Books 5 More Times In A Row Before You Offer Advise That Was Just Passed On Lyrics

only a dumbass would post in caps on every word.. but i do agree balance shafts are the devil!

 

[espinelli]

Drop the balance shafts in order to reduce your risk of engine failure. The balance shafts spin twice your RPMs. So if your tach reads 8000RPMs the balance shafts are turning 16000RPMs.

Its bad enough worrying about all the other $hit that could go wrong with a build up let alone having a balance shaft eat its own bearings due to high RPMs or even the secondary balancer belt breaking and wrapping itself into the main timing belt. Say buh bye to your 16 valves and head.

The other benefit of losing the balance shaft is that it will slightly increase your oil pressure.

I've been running my 2.3, w/ prothane mounts, 264/272 cams, no balance shafts and vibration is minimal. Car runs great.

On a side note why don't you ask a reputable shops like Forced Performance and Magnus what think about balance shafts in a built motor.