Wisemen and knowledgable tumers , 14000 rpm cfm? [Merged 7-7] STUPID high

[Jon Lane]

Maybe there's another way to look at this...er...issue.

How about starting with the absolute finest design, parts, and machining known to DSMman. Say, that Coates head for starters - no more valvetrain worries and a whack of breathing. The entire DSM world would worship whoever pulls that acquisition off. I'd bet you could get em for say, $3000 in quantities of what? A dozen? Bravo; you just did something revolutionary that actually WILL work.

This lines you up for whatever turbo you want to go buy to support whatever airflow numbers you want...

...after you build the very best bottom end you can. $25,000 worth of 4G63 shortblock or maybe $25,000 worth of destroked 2.4 - whatever.

Bolt it together and go see just how high you CAN rev the thing to.

Forget 14k. Try 10.62k. Or 11.049k. Or whatever the thing will actually do with state of the art bottom end pieces, a no-limit head, and a turbo as big as a manhole cover.

Just forget 14k.

 

[n3gativerr0r]

If they got a Ford 302 to 14 thousand something RPM. I dont even wanna see what they could do with a 4g63. I still dont totally grasp how that rotary head works. I mean I get the jist but Id need to look at a blueprint or diagram of it to totally be confident that it would work well in an extreme performance application.

 

[14.5 drift]

If they got a Ford 302 to 14 thousand something RPM. I dont even wanna see what they could do with a 4g63. I still dont totally grasp how that rotary head works. I mean I get the jist but Id need to look at a blueprint or diagram of it to totally be confident that it would work well in an extreme performance application.

link would be super

 

[thekellbeast]

That sounds great and all, but the problem is figuring out how to seal a rotating ball against the head. And, you'd have a constantly changing port shape. It doesn't really work too well in real life.

 

[kpt4321]

Keep in mind that if you build a motor with a modified stroke, and a rotary valve head, I wouldn't be too anxious to call it a 4G63 anymore...

 

[Krazeeejatt]

put a motorcycle engine in your dsm. You wont go anywhere, it'll be slow as hell. But atleast u'll accomplish your goal of taking in to 14k







Stoooooopiiiiidddd......

 

[FireyIce01]

That sounds great and all, but the problem is figuring out how to seal a rotating ball against the head. And, you'd have a constantly changing port shape. It doesn't really work too well in real life.

How do you know how it works in real life? You have one of these heads?

Many production engine blocks mounted with Coates rotary port-valve cylinder heads have been operated in the original host vehicles to implement extensive tests. For example, one of them has successfully been driven over 150,000 miles and shows many performance advantages. Some proven engine characteristics are listed below along with the best probable reasons for the observed results.

The list they show is pretty long, and has a lot of benefits... So I'd like to see what it really can do on a 4g63 block

 

[thekellbeast]

I probably shouldn't have said that. I'm sure a team of engineers knows better than I do. But this just seems like another crack-headed project idea of the B-man's.

 

[!^3]

link would be super

Highest I heard was Sean Hyland heads at 13,000rpm (don't quote me, it could have been another builder, but it is crazy what they do with the 5.0's as well as many of the modular Ford motors).

Denfinitely possible, but not within a lay-person's budget/experience.

Again, I respect burldude's ambition and enthusiasm. With a bit of education, he will be a fine engine modder

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

How do you know how it works in real life? You have one of these heads?



The list they show is pretty long, and has a lot of benefits... So I'd like to see what it really can do on a 4g63 block

Step 1: Click Logout
Step 2: Type in username burldude
Step 3: Type in your password
Step 4: PM a moderator and have them remove your other account.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

KPT: Excellent point.

I highly doubt seeing a production or even a prototype version of this for a 4g63. Think about the market.. typically 16-25yr olds, buying $2,000 and putting $2,000 to $4,000 wirth of mods into them and balling on a budget.

Big Block Ford and Chevy owners typically fall into an older age group, one that is statistically proven to have more income than our generation ever will. There is also a lot more 350's out there than 4g63's I'd imagine.

Depending on what Mitsu does, and how the Evo evolves, I could see maybe an Evo head being developed a few years down the road. Maybe.

 

[BlackbirdOfPrey]

Maybe with a set of small VATN turbo's?

*shrugs* just because it's not done by the majority doesn't mean it's not possible... I have always thought outside the box... and though a lot of things won't work... there's also a lot that could, and will... a lot of the things that are commonplace now were unheard of when their inventors thought of them... computer controlled ignition? It'll never get off the ground... computer controlled fuel delivery? that would never work... overhead camshafts? What kind of crazy idea is that? These are just a couple examples I can think of...

You are missing the point. Its possible, anything is possible. It is not PROBABLE. What is the point? Thinking outside the box is fine. Doing custom things is fine. Doing something like this HAS NO POINT. What is the point of having a 14k engine rev? Who cares how high you can rev? Do you think that Shep is gonna be impressed that you can rev so high, and still run 14's? NO. And I garuntee you that no one else will as well. Thats like the whole "I make more hp per litre" comment by the ricer that just got smoked hardcore by an F-Body. Do they care? NO. F-1 engineers have enough trouble making that many rpms out of a v-10 engine and they are the best auto engineers in the world, and yet your going to do it with 4?????? As for your examples, they all had a point to them, you have yet to state your point in doing something like this. Not to mention, if what everyone else has been saying is true and you have been asking how to do simple things, and then jump to titanium engines reving to 14k that is the dumbest pipe dream EVER. If you can run 12's I'll be impressed with your ability to make a daily driver a decently quick car. If you make a car that revs to 14k who is going to know? Who is going to care?

 

[Ryans99OZ]

obviously everyone that doubted him

 

[autronicDSM]

That sounds great and all, but the problem is figuring out how to seal a rotating ball against the head. And, you'd have a constantly changing port shape. It doesn't really work too well in real life.

That's what my boss was telling me awhile ago when I found this place on another car forum. Coates actaully came to a company he worked at asking for funds. He was in a group that had to make a decision and they said "no". He says it sounds great on paper and that's about it. Anybody notice there's no real numbers on their website for that 14k rpm V8?

 

[boostedinaz]

I have seen the Coats thing here and there and they have made a 5.0 spin that high, but again what is the practical purpose. So many motors have made a ton of power not revving to the moon. Sure they can do it but why put that amount of stress on a motor just so you can so you did. I coulf get a stock 5.0 to take a 400 shot, but how many times? If you continue to pull it that far it wont last 10K miles. So you spent all this money to make a car rev that high and it will only last so long, then you have to do it again. I dont think people that have a huge pipe dream actually look at the entire picture. They just see the goal and want to go after it.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

You are missing the point. Its possible, anything is possible. It is not PROBABLE. What is the point? Thinking outside the box is fine. Doing custom things is fine. Doing something like this HAS NO POINT. What is the point of having a 14k engine rev? Who cares how high you can rev? Do you think that Shep is gonna be impressed that you can rev so high, and still run 14's? NO. And I garuntee you that no one else will as well. Thats like the whole "I make more hp per litre" comment by the ricer that just got smoked hardcore by an F-Body. Do they care? NO. F-1 engineers have enough trouble making that many rpms out of a v-10 engine and they are the best auto engineers in the world, and yet your going to do it with 4?????? As for your examples, they all had a point to them, you have yet to state your point in doing something like this. Not to mention, if what everyone else has been saying is true and you have been asking how to do simple things, and then jump to titanium engines reving to 14k that is the dumbest pipe dream EVER. If you can run 12's I'll be impressed with your ability to make a daily driver a decently quick car. If you make a car that revs to 14k who is going to know? Who is going to care?

The link to search up all his old threads was above in my post. Excellent post, btw.

 

[Tevenor]

I am closing this post for 3 reasons.

1) burldude, you are going to do whatever you want to do regardless of our suggestions, comments or answers, so go do it. Start another post once you have an engine that revs to 14k. And may god have mercy on your soul.

2) There really is very little more legitimate technical conversation happening in this thread and therefore is a waste of time.

3) I can't keep beating my head against this brick wall without causing massive blunt force trauma.

 

[95Eclipsers]

ok i see all the honda guys around here tackin 9k safely why cant our 4g63 motors do it if there bullet proof, if they can how, im guessin building the head?

 

[blcknspo0ln]

i know of one honduh that can "TACK" to 9k rpms.. and that was the s2k..

as far as modified ones go, i've seen some have the ability to rev up to about ~8.5k.. that's with a fully built motor [i.e., pistons/rods, TI springs/retainers, etc ] ..

why would you want to rev that high anyway? our motors are turboed , therefore the higher rpms aren't needed. our power band is ~3k-7k...

 

[rdeterman]

well the Si's and type R's can all rev very high but only because they were built for it.. the Si's in there stock form i have seen rev over 9k without problems same with the Type R integras.. basically they have a high compression NA motor and you really cannot compare the two.. there heads/cams/bottom end are built for that.. ours arent so much plus who wants a power band like what they have 4800-redline.. thats dumb

 

[RayRay32]

crower makes a roller set up for b and h series honda motors and it will allow them to get up to 12.5k. But why would someone with a dsm want to go that high? Braggin rights. Its not worth it with a turbo.

 

[ryu]

well the Si's and type R's can all rev very high but only because they were built for it.. the Si's in there stock form i have seen rev over 9k without problems same with the Type R integras.. basically they have a high compression NA motor and you really cannot compare the two.. there heads/cams/bottom end are built for that.. ours arent so much plus who wants a power band like what they have 4800-redline.. thats dumb

"si's in there stock form rev over 9k w/out problems" dude i dont thing that is not safe at all. i herd that even the type r's sometimes get valve float because the rev limit is to high. and they are "ment" to rev around 9k. i can n drop my auto car and still drive away fine... but it is very bad for my trans. but like everybody is saying.... we dont need high rpm's. we have high psi's. but i guess if you have a n/t, you would have high mpg? just kidding... its all fam.

 

[Dallas J]

When hondas turbo their engine they start pushing more air and those high 8.5rpms become useless cause the head cant flow enough up their to keep up with the power from the lower RPMs. Thats the same case with DSMs. We flow alot more air so we start getting chocked up in the higher RPMs. I dont see why a N/A dsm wouldnt be able to though.

That concerned the engine... The tranny on the other hand doesnt like to be shifted above 8500 from what Ive heard. The synchros cant keep up. Although Ive heard No lift to shift function from DSMLink helps with those high RPM shifts. It has made worlds of difference on my shifting above 7500.

-Dallas J

 

[Syndicate13]

You guys are thinking of small or stock turbos. What aboout those guys running huge snails who don't even get boost until 5k? I'm sure they appreciate being able to rev higher than 7500 rpm. I've read that the stock DSM valvetrain is good to about 8k. Revving that high on a 14b in a stock 1g will get you nowhere, but for the guy running the 272's, ported head, and 60-1 will appreciate winding the motor out. Then all he has to wory about is getting a tranny that will shift at 9k.

 

[JrCRXHF]

i have a b16 in my honda and before i turboed the car i would go up to 9k with out a problem but i also lashed the head about every 10k miles to make sure it was in spec the car is funny because the higher u go the more power you make but the motor also has a short stroke. but why do the guys do it. well that is simple they get more air in the motor for a given time giving them more power.

both ways are fun i just need to open my motor up and close the deck so i can pull more power out of it. the stock motor is only good to about 300hp with the open deck sure guys do more but it is a gamble then.