Wisemen and knowledgable tumers , 14000 rpm cfm? [Merged 7-7] STUPID high

[autronicDSM]

Who cares about spoolup!!! Even if you get 15 psi at 7k rpm, you'll have another 7k to use it :laugh:

 

[kpt4321]

Are you going to ask for advice, and then ignore all of it?

Of you are, maybe you would be better off going into an empty room and talking to yourself.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Well here it goes everyone flame me . I bought the valves and ignition today . Msd dis 4 and 16 titanium valves and am having custom retainers made . Still a little concerned about spoolup time but Iam working on some theories . The valves and ignition would have cost 2 grand but I got a bargain on both . The Guy upstairs might be helping this one along quicker than I though possible .

Thanks for the post "jrohner" 1250 cfm @ 14,000 . OUch big turbo needed ! Maybe I am going to need a butterfly valve on the exhaust to direct exhaust for different turbos. It could depend on rpm . Deffinetly going to need some custom work there . I have been thinking in the lines of electric spoolup . Run the turbo shaft out of the intake and have a freewheeling clutch on it . Flame me I know, sure it will have to be balanced and it will need to have oil to it and it will need to have enough strength . Hmm very interesting to me

Why not just buy Crower's retainers, they are titanium..

Also , found a good turbo to suit your needs. It will flow the CFM you want.

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[Mirage2LTurbo]

Who cares about spoolup!!! Even if you get 15 psi at 7k rpm, you'll have another 7k to use it :laugh:

Hell, even my powerband is only 5-9k.. If he could get 15psi by 10k he'd still be doing good.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

As for your airflow, I'm figuring nearly 1000 CFM @ 14000, and at that 14000 the thing is down like 50HP from the peak (550@12000). And the heads are unrealistically insane. 15psi boost would also be a waste of a LOT of power. Up the boost to 25 and add 170HP and that means over 1250 CFM @ 14000. Piston speed at 14000 is 8084 fpm.

I don't see how you can get a realistic 14K out of it with that stroke, take about a half inch from the stroke and then maybe you will still have power @ those revs.

I am really thinking that your whole reason for starting this topic was just to get people talking, and it's working very well. Your first setup if you are actually serious is to contact Coates (coatesengine.com) about getting a rotary valve head made for this engine. They have ran a Ford 302 to I think over 13000 with their heads.

You can get a LOT more HP from a LOT less RPMs with a LOT more boost for a LOT less $$$. Just send me some of your money instead of wasting it.

I've never seen you posting before, so forgive me if you actually have a clue what you're talking about. How did you calculate these airflow numbers? I'm assuming the "550@12000" is a hp estimate at 12500rpm, how the hell did you get that? Did you take 14000rpm and divide by the number of pube hairs burldude has to get 550hp? How can you even calculate an ESTIMATED airflow without having ANY clue as to what kind of head and manifolds he's going to run, or what turbo he's going to run for that matter. You know NOTHING about his setup other than he wants titanium everything and rev to da moon!

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

So let me try and clarify a few things.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/sea...starteronly=1&exactname=1&searchuser=burldude

You register on here back in May 04, and make 3 threads about putting a early 1g motor into a late 1g chassis. You then ask "AEM EMS what will it do," and then you ask about installing ebc's and fmic's. Your next thread asks how to install a Dejon intake. You then ask random noob questions, followed by asking how to put a Chevy 350 into an AWD talon. You then accuse Slowboy of sending you a brand new turbo with too much shaft play, and then you make a thread about elminating waste spark to gain HP. After that, the 3 infamous threads of "TITANIUM PARTS LETS ROCK!!," "Eliminating Turbo Lag" by using a intake flapper/check valve, and then "14000 rpm what CFM"

Please, do us all a favor and stop posting. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[!^3]

So let me try and clarify a few things.


Please, do us all a favor and stop posting. You have no idea what you're talking about.

No wait! I need the entertainment!

 

[Zenja]

I think most of you guys are too closed minded. You keep bringing up the question of why he would want to do this. It's simply because he wants to! Why do I, or any of us, want a fast car ? It's just a hobby and something that sounds appealing to us. You're doing what you want in your life. It doesn't matter at all that he could make twice the power at half the RPM of what he's planning. He wants to do it because he likes the idea. Efficiency has no part in this discussion. Besides that, it would be interesting to have an actually intelligent discussion about this, whether he plans to do it or not. Does it hurt you to talk about something that gets you to think about things you haven't really considered before?

The kind of negative responses that should be coming toward him are comments about whether or not this is possible. Are those kind of RPMs and piston speeds going to work at all in this engine? Questions like that are what should be discussed, but half the people are posting about how it's a dumb idea. Of course it's a dumb idea if you just wanted to make power. That's not the point.

With the kind of posting history he's had here I can totally understand people not taking him seriously but it still doesn't hurt to take part in constructive discussion, even if just for the sake of theory. I'm a little surprised that some of you knowledgable, intelligent posters have responded in the way you have.

The only useful thing I can tell the OP that hasn't been emphasized is to make sure to destroke the engine. Try to get the bore:stroke ratio as large as possible.

 

[gixxer]

Run the turbo shaft out of the intake and have a freewheeling clutch on it . Flame me I know, sure it will have to be balanced and it will need to have oil to it and it will need to have enough strength

hahah i can't believe i just read that, ohhh my loins are hurting from the laughs. i think i'm gonna have to take you up on that offer to flame you

 

[kpt4321]

No wait! I need the entertainment!

It was funny at first, but now it's honestly just frustrating. We have to deal with him now, and none of us are going to get to see him fail and realize how stupid these ideas are.

 

[turbotaichi]

So, what does happen when pistons reach the speed of sound?

Dont bother asking the f1 motor builders, theyre afraid to find out.

at 14000 he'd be about half way there.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

It was funny at first, but now it's honestly just frustrating. We have to deal with him now, and none of us are going to get to see him fail and realize how stupid these ideas are.

I don't understand your post, rephrase?

 

[autronicDSM]

I can't believe nobody told him about tried and proven flux capacitor mod.

 

[FireyIce01]

I can't believe nobody told him about tried and proven flux capacitor mod.

I thought that only works on deloreans? Maybe it was the Mr. Fusion fuel system that I was thinking of... hmmm, but seriously though, even if 14k is a bit of an excessive rpm for a 4g63, at least he's trying to think of something new...

burl - you do realize that it's going to take a shitload of fuel to get the engine to spin that fast... hope you don't plan on driving this often, it'll make the escalade's and schitt seem like they have GOOD gas milage in comparison.

 

[Tevenor]

I think most of you guys are too closed minded. You keep bringing up the question of why he would want to do this. It's simply because he wants to! Why do I, or any of us, want a fast car ? It's just a hobby and something that sounds appealing to us. You're doing what you want in your life.

You don't get to bang pornstars all day without becoming a pornstar. And so far, this guys hasn't proved he has the equipment to bang Barbara Bush much less shoot for the moon.

Doing what you what to do in the fast of adversity is commendable. Continuing to run at a brick wall full force is stupid.

There is no reason this guy can't build a 14000 rpm 4G63. But everyone follows the law of diminishing returns. There get's to be a point to gain that extra 1000 rpm that it will cost you 10x the amount as the last 1000 rpms. If that is where he wants to spend his money, more power to him. But asking for advice from those more knowledgeable than himself and then not liking what he hears so he ignores it is foolharding and pretty much down right stupid.

This thread better stay technical or I SHALL bring furious anger and swift justice upon thee.

 

[jrohner]

I've never seen you posting before, so forgive me if you actually have a clue what you're talking about. How did you calculate these airflow numbers? I'm assuming the "550@12000" is a hp estimate at 12500rpm, how the hell did you get that? Did you take 14000rpm and divide by the number of pube hairs burldude has to get 550hp? How can you even calculate an ESTIMATED airflow without having ANY clue as to what kind of head and manifolds he's going to run, or what turbo he's going to run for that matter. You know NOTHING about his setup other than he wants titanium everything and rev to da moon!

Of course I dont know what he's going to run, cause he doesn't know him self yet. I just set it up in dyno 2003 and did whatever it took to make the power @ that high of rpms (except for destroking it which will be needed I think). No matter what he actually runs, power and rpms are very much related to airflow. It should at least get him somewhat of an idea. His original post asked for CFM so I actually tried to give an estimate on that, unlike most.

Like everyone else here, I think this is an unrealistic goal, but I thought I might as well give a little thought to a reply.

Does anyone here have some head flow data (both stock & w/ major porting), that would really help for more accurate calculations?

 

[burldude]

Good idea on the head flow chart . How much is going to have to be removed ? How far over size will the valves need to be . I have bough the valves . But what is the maximum amount the valve seat may be increased ?

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Good idea on the head flow chart . How much is going to have to be removed ? How far over size will the valves need to be . I have bough the valves . But what is the maximum amount the valve seat may be increased ?

So you bought valves, now your asking if you should have gotten oversized? Mine are 1mm+, I think my machinist said 2+ was about the limit, but I could be wrong.

 

[kpt4321]

I don't understand your post, rephrase?

Basically, he annoys the crap out of me.

 

[kpt4321]

No matter what he actually runs, power and rpms are very much related to airflow.

Yeah, but how do you have ANY idea how a 4G63 is going to react at 14,000 rpm?

Does anyone here have some head flow data (both stock & w/ major porting), that would really help for more accurate calculations?

Why search, when I can do it for you?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16920

 

[Akarimotorsport]

I once had an rx-7 that reved to 12,000 rpm. It blew up and I didn't have rods and pistons and valvetrain to mess with. There was no power past 9500 or 9600.

This is not possible, but the thread is long and funny to read.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I once had an rx-7 that reved to 12,000 rpm. It blew up and I didn't have rods and pistons and valvetrain to mess with. There was no power past 9500 or 9600.

This is not possible, but the thread is long and funny to read.

N/a or turbo? Any port work?

 

[BlackbirdOfPrey]

While were at it, could someone quad turbo my Talon? And can you do all the research for me too, oh and I couldn't find any 710 to put in may car where the black cap is on top of my valve cover.........

 

[leet]

I am REALLY curious on how you intend to actuate the valves. Are you seriously planning on using standard camshafts?

Not only that, but you are more than likely going to have to destroke the engine, to be able to maintain high RPMs.

Edit: Nevermind. You 'plan' on using a Coates head.

 

[FireyIce01]

While were at it, could someone quad turbo my Talon? And can you do all the research for me too, oh and I couldn't find any 710 to put in may car where the black cap is on top of my valve cover.........

Maybe with a set of small VATN turbo's?

*shrugs* just because it's not done by the majority doesn't mean it's not possible... I have always thought outside the box... and though a lot of things won't work... there's also a lot that could, and will... a lot of the things that are commonplace now were unheard of when their inventors thought of them... computer controlled ignition? It'll never get off the ground... computer controlled fuel delivery? that would never work... overhead camshafts? What kind of crazy idea is that? These are just a couple examples I can think of...