Wisemen and knowledgable tumers , 14000 rpm cfm? [Merged 7-7] STUPID high

[gixxer]

^^ you put in into words far better than i

 

[14.5 drift]

I am sure some have you have seen that I am pursuing a ti full buildup . I have found the valves cheap . I mean really cheap , to cheap to even say what Iam paying. So this will mean more money for the titanium spring manufacturing .

The bottom line is that I want to be able to rev to 14,000 safely . 60 mph in first gear is what I am after, and a little extra.
It will come down to how much air the 2.0 is going to need .

What are the cfm requirements going to be at 14,000 ? What about fuel requiremnets ? Will the aem ems be able to mantain spark at 14,000 ? Oil supply will be a factor ?

Has anyone approached these rpms ? And if so what was there setup?

I really dont want a whole lot of Horse power . Whatever I get is good , but I need to start planning around cfm .

Will I have to ditch the stock slack adjuster and go with a manuel ?

I have alot of questions I have to answer and alot of learning in the next year . Please any wiseman or knowledgable tuners contribute.

My suggestions, empty bank account in one dollar bills, dig a hole, put money in hole, grab some marshmellows and have a bon fire.


This is what you will essentially be doing with every penny you spend on your melted bottom end, accept no tasty marshmellows. As some others have pointed out already that neither the bottom or top end is any thing near capable of 14k. I know youve seen where guys make mention of revving there cars to 10k, but you have to understand, that is either a fluke or a totally built motor if it didn't pop. It's like you saw 10k and thought maybe 14k would be cool, it is essentially unreasonably. Think of it like this, how much is your max bench press, 180? 200? Now add on another 50 lbs and give that a try.

You will find yourself soarly mistaken with a 250lbs bar pinned on your throat is sort of the gist of it.


To make it even remotely possible you need to start examining motorcycle engines and their processes. Engine bore and stroke, cam degrees lift and durations, the way they process there air and fuel and power curves are very different from the requirements and loads the chassis will produce with the weight to power/torque ratios. A bike weighs 300 lbs and has 60lbs tq and 100 hp. You do the math with your eclipse and see what it comes out to.

Alrighty, I am a newbie and have no clear right to tell you what to do, but i have been around long enough to know that your goals are sort of a waste of time, money, and have no real producable outcome worth bragging about. Dont even get started on the exhaust dynamics of that high of a revving motor. You could waste a life time on this project and wind up with nothing.

 

[turbotaichi]

destroked 4g64 (2.1) revs to 11k rpm with ease. start there.

 

[GRNDSM]

Jeff and others already brought up a lot of valid reason why this is not reasonable. I will give you one more. Think of G-loads on rods, crank and wrist pin when you change directions. You would have to come up with some ultra light rods and pistons, but even then, you will be tossing rods left and right...

Before you start worrying about CFMs, you will need to overcome numerous mechanical issues...

And think about what you are trying to achieve. High RPMs are great for making power in absence of forced induction. With turbocharging, there is really no need for running such high RPMs! You can tune with boost!

So if you are building an ultimate NT motor, this might make some sense (after you get over the fact that it is a crazy task in the first place). But if you do have boost this makes no sense what so ever…

Leon
RR

 

[burldude]

So according to that calculator I will only need a intake tract that will flow 500 cfm . But to build boost Iam going to need more Iam sure . How much more ,double ?


I am pronouncing this guy the king of worthless threads.


:laugh:

I'll tell you all , for starters . I want idle to be bellow a 1000. I want to be able to rev to 14,000 I want power all the way there. Not such a task if you ask me with stock cars hitting 10 grand . Anyway thanks for all the info Does anyone know what rpm Shep Shifts at ? Somthing tells me that he is ringing his motor out and is tuned for max power at max rpms .

Another point, Indy cars from the 80's. They had a small bore . 1.5 liters Producing in excess of 1500hp Turbo charged reving to 14,000. Methanol, or ethanol then ?I will not be running 40 lbs of boost .

I can see it now dual 5 inch exhaust from a merge collector

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

So according to that calculator I will only need a intake tract that will flow 500 cfm . But to build boost Iam going to need more Iam sure . How much more ,double ?


I am pronouncing this guy the king of worthless threads.


:laugh:

I'll tell you all , for starters . I want idle to be bellow a 1000. I want to be able to rev to 14,000 I want power all the way there. Not such a task if you ask me with stock cars hitting 10 grand . Anyway thanks for all the info Does anyone know what rpm Shep Shifts at ? Somthing tells me that he is ringing his motor out and is tuned for max power at max rpms .

Another point, Indy cars from the 80's. They had a small bore . 1.5 liters Producing in excess of 1500hp Turbo charged reving to 14,000. Methanol, or ethanol then ?I will not be running 40 lbs of boost .

I can see it now dual 5 inch exhaust from a merge collector

Every post you make, it becomes more apparent you really are totally oblivious.

 

[burldude]

It is somthing that I have learned . You have to make your own life no matter what others might say or do . Not everyone has ears to hear this . Oblivious is wrecking 3 dsm's and there Grandmothers car and not changing there life .

I have found what makes me happy and it is out side the realm of Practical wisdom in some reguards.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

So from reading all your posts, let me recap.

You want to build a semi-completly titanium engine, valves, springs, retainers, rods, pistons, etc. You then want to have full power from 1k to 14k. You don't really care what power it makes because you just want to have some orgasmic noise that a Ti engine makes, nor do you want to run 40psi boost. You are going to redesign MIVEC head with like 8 cam lobes/profiles so you can make power through all the rpm's, and also have like a quadruple butterfly intake manifold, and some flapper to spool your T-76 turbo at 2k, but all you really want to do is have the sound of a Titanium ricecan so you can shock the DSM world?

Let me rephrase this for you.

You want everyone to give you attention for this project you are building in your head, yet no one really cares and just makes fun of you more. You can barely use legible grammar and punctuation on half your posts, yet you are going to redesign an engine to handle this stuff you're talking about?

 

[burldude]

Hmm that about covers it other than this , I never said anything about a mivec head. Once again misquoted . Butterfly valves, now there is an option, Anyone ever seen this done?

The fact is . Building for torque can be done . Building for rpm's is what should be done in my application. The engine is nothing more than an air pump . The more cfm the motor can move depends on the ability of the air pump. Lighten the rotating assembly ,increase air input and adequate fuel supply . There is not much more needed . Problems that will arrise are removing the heat and hot spots from the combustion chamber . Also controlling the decelration of air running into the combustion chamber . At 14,000 I can see the intake valve closing and the flow still wishing to continue forcing the intake valve to crack open . I am going to need some stiff springs with more seat pressure than most valves can handle . Titanium the answer.

Sure upping the boost can be done to an extent on pump fuel . But what happens when you cant raise the boost anymore becuase of detonation ? End of the line torque and hp dropoff at a given rpm. Why ?

More rpm gives you more airflow allowing the "ring dingey" affect . More airflow equates to cooler intake and combustion chamber . Yes the engine must be protected against friction heat overrunning the cooling system . This would be a whole diffrent post on using coatings . But the added benifit is less boost required to make a given amount of power . Exhaust scavenging will occur pulling with it an unburned hydrocarbons ,reducing detonation . These are all known Formula 1 recipes for succes.

I dont want to see a thread blocked in extreme becuase of lack of serious thought or input. :thumbdown

What turbo is a whole another thread

 

[DevilSperm]

even if you could do it, your poor tranny

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

My bad, I mistook you for this thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143753&highlight=mivec

 

[burldude]

Edited two posts above

 

[boostedinaz]

I really dont even know what to say. A power band from 1K to 14K with just two cam profiles, I bet. You may want to step back and actually examine what you are trying to do, becasue it wont happen. That is what we are trying to tell you. All you are trying to do build a smaller F1 engine. I bet they only spend about 2K a month on making those work.

Some people have more money than brains.

 

[jrohner]

You keep referring to Formula 1, yet you want to run from 1000-14,000. Even F1 cars do not have that kind of rpm range. Yes they may be able to run 17000+ rpms, but you have to remember that they idle at over 7,000 too (and are never really under 10,000 cause their hydraulics don't work @ any lower). Also, in formula 1 the engines are NA - no boost.

CART engines are boosted and run like 14000 but they still do not have that kind of insane rpm range. CART engines are only 2.65L but are V8's not I4's, so their internals are very small and light.

Plus there is no cam that will allow that range, you will need to have the valves run by electronics, and that system would probly cost you millions alone.

Just build a great engine with a huge turbo and cams and major porting and go from there.

 

[14.5 drift]

exactly. Show us where in formula 1 racing they were using a 4g63

 

[burldude]

I am not that old but I do rememeber the turbo years in the 80's. I cant really say much more about what I plan other than I have to have more money so In time I wll add to this as I will where I buy Ti parts for the buildup . Valve actuators are not out a of feesability right now ,but I do not plan on them .

 

[n3gativerr0r]

This thread needs to be closed down. You could be the most ignorant person ever on a message board.

Go ahead and waste your money building it. The first time you fire it up and rev it to even 12k and toss a rod right through your oil pan or even do hit 14k by some act of god and your tranny grenades shredding your car come back and tell us of your success.

:thumbdown

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

There's really nothing wrong with the crower valve train, crower rods, both of which can be titanium. IIRC, isn't Shep on just standard Crower rods? The wrist pins are a waste, the titanium rods are a waste, and your idea to rev to 14k is a waste because you won't be able to without the type of hydraulic head listed above. Cut your losses, register under a new name, and go about your life.

 

[burldude]

Thank you moderators for not closing this ,beforehand . I have learned alot from this post. It seems that if you think outside the bun You get ridiculed . I hope to continue with my progress . I still have many questions such as the msd dis-4 being able to keep up with 14000k limit. Also will the aem-ems unit be able to keep up .

It seems that there are a few people pushing 800hp . Iam sure they had alot of people say that" There was no way it could happen !!!" 800 is a alot of hp . As I said before Iam not after a specific number Iam after cfm.

I have alot of questions I have to answer and alot of learning in the next year . Please any wiseman or knowledgable tuners contribute.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Thank you moderators for not closing this ,beforehand . I have learned alot from this post. It seems that if you think outside the bun You get ridiculed . I hope to continue with my progress . I still have many questions such as the msd dis-4 being able to keep up with 14000k limit. Also will the aem-ems unit be able to keep up .

It seems that there are a few people pushing 800hp . Iam sure they had alot of people say that" There was no way it could happen !!!" 800 is a alot of hp . As I said before Iam not after a specific number Iam after cfm.

I have alot of questions I have to answer and alot of learning in the next year . Please any wiseman or knowledgable tuners contribute.

[/QUOTE]

DIS4 maxes out at 10k. You're not thinking outside the bun, you're thinking like you don't have a brain. Please try and use it before making more posts. I know my standalone will keep up with your revving to 30,000rpm (yeah, rev more!!), but I really don't want to see your posting on my standalone board asking more stupid questions.

 

[!^3]

There's really nothing wrong with the crower valve train, crower rods, both of which can be titanium. IIRC, isn't Shep on just standard Crower rods? The wrist pins are a waste, the titanium rods are a waste, and your idea to rev to 14k is a waste because you won't be able to without the type of hydraulic head listed above. Cut your losses, register under a new name, and go about your life.

Nah, Shep runs Groden aluminum rods. Lightweight, but they stretch and require rebuilds after a certain period to replace the stretched rods with correctly spec'd rods.

Um...you need to build yourself a turbo motorcycle engine powered go-kart or something. All of the things you are speaking off are impossible from a layman's point of view.

Maybe the entire R&D of a given auto company could figure this out, but it would never be profitable or reliable.

Yes, dreams are great and we are all glad that you have them, but you also nee to develop an awareness of when to stop.

 

[Morphius]

I think 14K is too far out there to reach. Utilizing a destroked 2.0L and the lightest pistons, rods and valve train you can find, you might be able to bounce off 12K............... once or twice.

Food for thought........ even the Japanese OEM's haven't hit that with these 4cyl engines. Why? There is alot of engineering that goes into something like this. Good example. It took Honda 15 or 20 YEARS to develop an oval piston sportbike engine (NR500 prototype and the NR570 production) that would hit a redlline of 21K.

If you've got money to burn, why not build a tight bottem end based on the likes of what Shepard and Buschur have. Then with all the 'excess cash' you have, develop a new head. Maybe reconfigure the valves in the combustion chamber so you can get bigger valves in there, or design a five vavle/per cylinder head. Larger exhaust and intake ports. Dual spark plugs. Direct port injection. etc.

Here's an interesting one........ build a DOHC head for the 2.6L G54B.

 

[Morphius]

Um...you need to build yourself a turbo motorcycle engine powered go-kart or something. All of the things you are speaking off are impossible from a layman's point of view.

Taking your idea and stretching it a bit........

Take street bike engine....... like that of the Hybusa or something as large. Add the following: Big bore kit, low compression pistons, larger injectors. larger fuel pump, turbo and a header. Custom adapter plate/coupler to bolt engine to DSM trans.


Wall lah.......... 14K rpm!!!!

 

[14.5 drift]

they say great minds think alike ,. That was going to be my next suggestion, why not start with a motor that is designed to rev that high. Take one motor, toss it up front, take another and toss it in back, hell use four of them if you want. Big bore, low conpression, nitrous/turbo your fool heart out to 16k all day long, and hell you might even get a couple thousand miles out of it. Plus then you's actually have some bragging rights

 

[!^3]

Taking your idea and stretching it a bit........

Take street bike engine....... like that of the Hybusa or something as large. Add the following: Big bore kit, low compression pistons, larger injectors. larger fuel pump, turbo and a header. Custom adapter plate/coupler to bolt engine to DSM trans.


Wall lah.......... 14K rpm!!!!

AHA! This is what I speak of. We're building a turbo R1 Yamaha powered sand rail that will rev to 15k all day long. 4g63's are far from doing this.


Just got this from burldude in my PM's:
"You can follow mirages point of veiw if you like . Iam moving ahead."

Mmmmmmmkay. I still don't see the need to rev to 14k When I'm building my twin turbo modular Ford 5.4L powered AC Cobra and putting down over 1000hp on pump gas, we'll see who's moving ahead What you're trying to do just is not economically nor physically feasible with the 4g63 and all of the supporting research available to date. Why don't you understand that? Do you know how a motor operates aside from a bunch of parts you put together and pray they work right?