Wisemen and knowledgable tumers , 14000 rpm cfm? [Merged 7-7] STUPID high

[burldude]

Dont cast your pearls before swine . I am deffinetly seeing the meaning of this. I guess I will just drop my motor buildup becuase so many people think that it wont work. Sorry I wasted all you time . Maybe I will post in a year and tell you all how wrong I was . I will justg keep it all to myself and not hsare anything becuase everyone is right . Here is what I gather from all the negative posts.

Titanium is a waste of time . Moving the rev limit to 14,000 is a bad idea . Dsm are not supposed to have a high power curve and dont lighten the valve train .

Thanks for all the great advice . But what is this? I cant beleive there is a spark of hope" I am going on with it ".

Come on guys lets get real and come up with some positive applications . It looks like I have all the info to build this motor , Except specific fuel requirements , what turbo to use at 14,000 Rpm and "?psi" along with cam selection and spring rate . These are things that can be plotted.

 

[14.5 drift]

go cry, we just saved you alot of time and money and hardship in the long run. Sorry to dissapoint you with the truth.

 

[14.5 drift]

Outside of this thread, I suggest you start searching more on the net and wrapping your head around some more info. You see right now you only know enough to where you think you can concieve a possible solution, spend a good week on the web learning these calculations yourself, because in the end you wont believe it until you do the equations yourself. At the very worst you will learn alot. Why dont you come back and do the math for us and proove us all wrong, I know I personally am rooting for you.

 

[14.5 drift]

Ps I really liked the hayabusa idea.......

 

[kpt4321]

Seriously, you need to shut the #### up.

Remember on page 1 where swordfish asked about piston speeds? I'm still waiting for your answer to that question.

Not to mention... what are you going to use for springs and retainers at 14000 rpm? Surely not the same stuff you are going to use at 9000 rpm.

What cam are you going to use? I don't know of too many cams that will operate at 14000 rpm.

What turbo are you going to use that will allow you to have a powerband from 1000 rpm to 14000 rpm?

What head are you going to use? I have a strange feeling that the standard 4G63 head is not going to do so well when you *try* to run twice as much airflow as the "big power" guys.

There is so much more, but I know you're not going to answer these questions, and you're just going to talk about how you're going to do it no matter what we say. Please, videotape your first foray to 14,000 rpm, I'd love to see it.

 

[pneumo]

Burldude, you keep saying how you think this motor is a definite possibility, yet you aren't telling us anything about your abilities as a mechanic, fabricator, engineer, etc. Maybe we could have more confidence in your ability to pull this off if you told us more about why you think this idea will work. For starters, maybe you could tell us the importance of different bore/stroke ratios and the effects they have on motors designed for different rpm ranges. As it stands now, your question sounds like, "Tell me how to build a 14k rpm motor?" We can't give you the education and experience needed to do that in this or any forum. You need to get at least a Masters degree in engineering for that.

And you wonder why the answers are so discouraging!

 

[burldude]

Oh well it looks like none of you can asnswer a little simple question . I am not doing anything so difficult that it would be considered impossible . I went to the cfm calculator and ran in the cubic inches of a 2.0 liter and punched in 14,000 rpm and guess what it gave me 495 or close to it . I need to double that number to safely give me enough flow to run 15lbs of boost . So in a year from now if somone passes you In first gear at 90 just think back who that person was. As they grab 2nd...............I wont say I told you so . I will let you all know that you didnt want to help.

 

[kpt4321]

Hey genius, remember when I asked you a bunch of questions that you would need to answer in order to make this work? Answer them.

If you're making 400 horsepower at 14,000 rpm, your car will not be any faster than if you made that same amount of power at 7,000 rpm. I hope you know that. You don't gain ANYTHING by revving higher unless you are using it to increase your mass airflow due to flow limitations caused by small displacement at a lower engine speed. If you're only going to run 15 psi, then you could make a car that was just as fast by running more boost and revving to 8000 rpm. You would also spend a fraction as much money, have a transmission that could shift, and the project would be POSSIBLE.

 

[pneumo]

Here's how it works, check out www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22470 and scroll down to post #28 written by yours truely some time ago. That post will give you enough math to figure out your CFM requirements at 14k rpm and any boost level, but you'll have to make some guesses about your engines VE. Good Luck.

and stop saying we can't help you. If you ask better questions you'll get better answers.

 

[!^3]

So in a year from now if somone passes you In first gear at 90 just think back who that person was. As they grab 2nd...............I wont say I told you so . I will let you all know that you didnt want to help.

...wow...are you just trying to make a 4 wheeled motorcycle? Why would you want to do all of this, only to run 15psi? What is your fetish with a high-revving motor? You DO realize that revs do not equal high power/good times, right? Yes, in theory you could hit 60-90 in first gear, but how long would it take to get you there? 10 seconds? The ability to go faster in each gear does not equal a fast car! When will you understand this!

I admire your ambition, but the education is lacking. Go back to beginning, understand the basics, and THEN direct your enthusiasm at a worthwhile project.

And yes, I am saying that a 14,000rpm 4g63 is a worthless project because it is, in fact, impossible. You DO realize there is more to motor design than simply the strength of the parts, right? Don't tell us otherwise unless you can wow us with answers to kpt4321's questions among other things.

 

[n3gativerr0r]

Oh well it looks like none of you can asnswer a little simple question . I am not doing anything so difficult that it would be considered impossible . I went to the cfm calculator and ran in the cubic inches of a 2.0 liter and punched in 14,000 rpm and guess what it gave me 495 or close to it . I need to double that number to safely give me enough flow to run 15lbs of boost . So in a year from now if somone passes you In first gear at 90 just think back who that person was. As they grab 2nd...............I wont say I told you so . I will let you all know that you didnt want to help.

Holy jesus this guy is funny :laugh: . * Catches Breath *

Or while your dumping hundreds of hours and prolly 100,000 dollars. Youll try that fly by on a hrm I dont know... a built LS1 Fbody. At which point they kick it into 3rd (because there are more gears on a car than 1st) and reel you in with their "crappy" 65000rpm redline and make you look stupid for trying so damn hard to make power the impossible way instead of just plain making power.

Do yourself a favor.. do some reading and when you find out its hard enough to make a trully fast car the proven way, never mind trying to work miracles just to make some power.


And the thing I find the funniest is you ask for the wisemen's opinion. You get almost every decent wiseman on this site in your thread telling you its unfeasible and you blow them off like you know better. Mirage2lTurbo is making more power in his 4g63 than you would know what to do with. And the other moderaters and wisemen know wtf they are talking about unlike you.

God this thread is so assinine

 

[Defiant]

So, what does happen when pistons reach the speed of sound?

 

[gixxer]

good question.......world peace??



hey burldude, instead of this whole high revving turbo motor idea, you should just make it NA and save yourself all of those engineering dibacles. all you'd have to compete with are the n/t boys

 

[burldude]

Here's how it works, check out www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22470 and scroll down to post #28 written by yours truely some time ago. That post will give you enough math to figure out your CFM requirements at 14k rpm and any boost level, but you'll have to make some guesses about your engines VE. Good Luck.

and stop saying we can't help you. If you ask better questions you'll get better answers.

Thank You informative post . It helps me calm some of my worries. I came up with this cfm requirement a couple of posts up . Thank you . I also have been thinking about the power curve and Im sure it would be a good idea to have the power at peak 10,000 rpm with the redline at 14,000 . The current ignition systems on market that Iam looking at go to 14,000 . I want a good curve though I dont want it dropping to much I want more of a leveling off . Honestly at 14,000 I would be more afraid of to much cylinder pressure . The stock block can only hold so much . The main webbing would see alot of force.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

If youre expecting power to peak at 10000 rpm, tq will be dropping fast by then. Torque is cylinder pressure. As VE drops, so does cylinder pressure, with all tuning variables unchanged. So peak torque is where you have to worry about pressure. Even if it goes to 14k in one piece, I highly doubt you will get a decent enough curve out of this setup to cause concern (related to cylinder pressure at least) over 10k rpm.

 

[green92gsx]

I wonder how many 15000k rpm pulls it would take for the flywheel to fly right off the crank?

 

[jott5555]

heres just a little idea.. if you madly in love wiht the body style of a dsm it would be more cost effective to fabricate a way to fit a rotory motor in there. it dosent take squat to make a rotory OR wanker engine rev very high due to the fact there is no valves, up or down motion by the pistions and many other things.

not to mention it would be a VERY unique badass swap.

just a idea.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

heres just a little idea.. if you madly in love wiht the body style of a dsm it would be more cost effective to fabricate a way to fit a rotory motor in there. it dosent take squat to make a rotory OR wanker engine rev very high due to the fact there is no valves, up or down motion by the pistions and many other things.

not to mention it would be a VERY unique badass swap.

just a idea.

AHAHAH!!!!!11oneninerwtfbbqtnt

Like I sid before, register another name on here, then make threads about how to make power My bone stock tranny will do around 50 in first gear at 9k, slap a GVR4 input shaft in and you're spinning 60mph-ish at 9k. Rev it to 14k, you're going to be taking her up a lot higher than 90mph. Also, hope you have a badass clutch setup, and a whole lotta nitrous. I can't imagine the car even making enough power to propel itself in the lower rpm's with the type of cams and headwork you will require. Maybe you could race school buses or something :dunno:

 

[jott5555]

dont hate just cuz i came up with the idea. and its a better idea than trying to build a 4g63 with a 14,000 rpm redline.

and dont be a jackass.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

And the thing I find the funniest is you ask for the wisemen's opinion. You get almost every decent wiseman on this site in your thread telling you its unfeasible and you blow them off like you know better. Mirage2lTurbo is making more power in his 4g63 than you would know what to do with. And the other moderaters and wisemen know wtf they are talking about unlike you.

God this thread is so assinine

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

dont hate just cuz i came up with the idea. and its a better idea than trying to build a 4g63 with a 14,000 rpm redline.

and dont be a jackass.

I'm not hating, I'm saying that WOULD be BADASS. Yes, much better idea than a 14k 4g63, but GAWD, imagine the fabrication.........

I'd imagine you'd have to go fuel cell, custom ds/rear axles, FD rear end, not to mention the motor mounts... Not to mention you couldn't run at ANY sanctioned race event.

 

[jott5555]

my bad then..

well he didnt mention anything about raceing events... and yes it would probally have to be rwd

but with enough money anything is possiable. and it sounds like he has enough money.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

my bad then..

well he didnt mention anything about raceing events... and yes it would probally have to be rwd

but with enough money anything is possiable. and it sounds like he has enough money.

$2000/month would BARELY cover my living expenses...

So he's supposedly going to drop 50k on this engine, or however much.. probably more after he gets a billet Unobtainium block and accessories, then just not race it? Is he just going to park it in his living room and use it to watch tv?

 

[jrohner]

As for your airflow, I'm figuring nearly 1000 CFM @ 14000, and at that 14000 the thing is down like 50HP from the peak (550@12000). And the heads are unrealistically insane. 15psi boost would also be a waste of a LOT of power. Up the boost to 25 and add 170HP and that means over 1250 CFM @ 14000. Piston speed at 14000 is 8084 fpm.

I don't see how you can get a realistic 14K out of it with that stroke, take about a half inch from the stroke and then maybe you will still have power @ those revs.

I am really thinking that your whole reason for starting this topic was just to get people talking, and it's working very well. Your first setup if you are actually serious is to contact Coates (coatesengine.com) about getting a rotary valve head made for this engine. They have ran a Ford 302 to I think over 13000 with their heads.

You can get a LOT more HP from a LOT less RPMs with a LOT more boost for a LOT less $$$. Just send me some of your money instead of wasting it.

 

[burldude]

Well here it goes everyone flame me . I bought the valves and ignition today . Msd dis 4 and 16 titanium valves and am having custom retainers made . Still a little concerned about spoolup time but Iam working on some theories . The valves and ignition would have cost 2 grand but I got a bargain on both . The Guy upstairs might be helping this one along quicker than I though possible .

Thanks for the post "jrohner" 1250 cfm @ 14,000 . OUch big turbo needed ! Maybe I am going to need a butterfly valve on the exhaust to direct exhaust for different turbos. It could depend on rpm . Deffinetly going to need some custom work there . I have been thinking in the lines of electric spoolup . Run the turbo shaft out of the intake and have a freewheeling clutch on it . Flame me I know, sure it will have to be balanced and it will need to have oil to it and it will need to have enough strength . Hmm very interesting to me