Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

[97TSIAWD]

Actually those two bottom quotes are from a creator of a Methanol kit, and a chemical engineer, he also drives a 10 second turbo regal. He has done lots of real world testing and those are his conclusions. But I do believe his statement, if you add a higher octane gas but do not change anything else, what happens to your traps? They usually tend to go up, I've gained 5-10 mph just using leaded 110, so this theory does make sense to me. Also, it isn't just some guy that said there is a cylinder temp drop of 300*, it is a research article on the effects of alcohol injection. As for not wanting a drop in cylinder temps, I find that hard to believe as isn't that what water injection is trying to do? Sure cool intake temps, but isn't that directly effecting cylinder temps? I'm trying to draw out answers from you for a better understanding of everything myself, although I have real world experience with injecting, the engineering behind it sometimes escape me. I often ask my brother the mechanical engineer for assistance . Either way I'd like to continue extrapalating the information so that this thread is loaded with good solid information, and a good debate never hurt anyone.

 

[Jehu]

It doesn't really matter who makes the statement. If it's unsubstantiated it's just a statement.

I'm not arguing that injecting water/alcohol will drop cylinder temps. You could also drop cylinder temperatures by adding fuel. But what makes power? It's bringing those cylinder temps back up via more boost/timing. If there are no other adjustments and you have lower cylinder temps, assuming that the original temperatures were normal, i.e. not knocking etc, you can only lose power by dropping cylinder temperatures. This is all basic thermo/engine mechanics. Lower temps = lower pressure = less power.

 

[97TSIAWD]

It doesn't really matter who makes the statement. If it's unsubstantiated it's just a statement.

I'm not arguing that injecting water/alcohol will drop cylinder temps. You could also drop cylinder temperatures by adding fuel. But what makes power? It's bringing those cylinder temps back up via more boost/timing. If there are no other adjustments and you have lower cylinder temps, assuming that the original temperatures were normal, i.e. not knocking etc, you can only lose power by dropping cylinder temperatures. This is all basic thermo/engine mechanics. Lower temps = lower pressure = less power.

There has to be a trade off then, although lowering temps, the burning methanol/alcohol increases hp, hmm everything at this point sounds very confusing. But the example of methanol injection adding straight hp makes sense, because of the reference to race fuel. The higher octane fuels are known to add power to a car, with nothing else added can you deny this statement? Have you not improved your mph in the 1/4 by just adding race fuel and nothing else to the car? Yes, methanol being a fuel and adding to the mix works in the same way, how it drops temps and still makes power I can not understand (of course I am also not an engineer). However, every principle in math is a theory and a statement, sure it can be proven time and time again but one day when it doesn't work the same the theory will change and the old one will be dis-proven. This has happened all of history, so to say that you won't believe a statement because it is unsubstantiated is a form of hypocrisy. The two statements I put have been proven, in the real world, that is a form of scientific testing to be sure and since it has worked for many in the Buick community it is for now true, to those who wish to believe it, some don't believe in anti-matter but what can you do. I only offer you to try the two different methods with your kit, only water, then only methanol and see what happens, then go back and try a 50/50 or 25/75 mix like you said you would. Report back with what you find, I have already spoken face to face and seen the results first hand but it is worth you trying it to prove it once again or if anything to post the evidence you have found for future people who embark on this mod.

 

[Jehu]

Take a gander at that, and you'll find similar information on other sites
http://www.rc51.org/fuel.htm
I don't know why you keep placing the burden of proof on me. And no, I don't agree that you get a higher MPH on race fuel IF your ECU doesn't advance timing. The only way you could see a 5-10mph increase from race fuel is IF you were knocking prior to that and timing's getting pulled. The only time I saw an increase from race fuel was when it got rid of my knock. Then even more gains when I upped the boost and leaned it out.
What we're discussing here isn't rocket science. It isn't even theory. More CC heat = more CC pressure. No ifs ands or buts. You've seen it time and time again. Do you know why people generally try to lean things out when tuning for power? Because it generates more heat! Too much fuel takes energy away from the combustion process, lowering temperatures and hence power.
Read up on combustion theory. What I say will start to make sense.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Take a gander at that, and you'll find similar information on other sites
http://www.rc51.org/fuel.htm
I don't know why you keep placing the burden of proof on me. And no, I don't agree that you get a higher MPH on race fuel IF your ECU doesn't advance timing. The only way you could see a 5-10mph increase from race fuel is IF you were knocking prior to that and timing's getting pulled. The only time I saw an increase from race fuel was when it got rid of my knock. Then even more gains when I upped the boost and leaned it out.
What we're discussing here isn't rocket science. It isn't even theory. More CC heat = more CC pressure. No ifs ands or buts. You've seen it time and time again. Do you know why people generally try to lean things out when tuning for power? Because it generates more heat! Too much fuel takes energy away from the combustion process, lowering temperatures and hence power.
Read up on combustion theory. What I say will start to make sense.

Your link is for a motorcycle not a turbo charged car, it is totally different. Yes a turbo car can gain mph in the 1/4 from just adding race gas, no I was not knocking before I added the race fuel, yes I can prove both. I do understand tuning and leaning out the mixture, leaner makes more power, whatever. The subject has changed so much from the topic it isn't even worth discussing. The burden of proof is on you if you are going to indicate water is going to be better, do a real world experiment like I indicated and you will find out personally what works better, I have, and have found that methanol is going to be the best solution. If you don't agree that is fine, use water or whatever you want it doesn't matter to me obviously it isn't my setup. If you don't believe experienced racers and want to make it about science then do it, racing isn't exactly rocket science either but you kept trying to make it sound like it was, look at all your links. This is real world experience and tuning from several respectable racers and myself (from two different communities, Buick/Pontiac and DSM), so when you get your own information post it, since you don't even have any first hand experience apparently.


PS I don't have to read on combustion theory, ohh look you put theory. I can real world tune, my brother the engineer handles everything else.

 

[Jehu]

When did I ever make a broad statement like "water is better?". Water will absorb more heat. Period. Is absorbing heat the only issue in this application? No! I know that you will get more gains from injecting methanol. But the reasoning and justifications you used to substantiate what you observed was flawed. Go ahead and "real world tune" without understanding what's actually going on. I'm done trying to educate you.

 

[98spydert]

When did I ever make a broad statement like "water is better?". Water will absorb more heat. Period. Is absorbing heat the only issue in this application? No! I know that you will get more gains from injecting methanol. But the reasoning and justifications you used to substantiate what you observed was flawed. Go ahead and "real world tune" without understanding what's actually going on. I'm done trying to educate you.

"My brother the engineer... the Buick guys said... I read once... I think I recall..." WTF Obviously anyone with and brains can pick out the good information is this rediculous argument. Thank you for all of your real input Jehu.


Edit: NM, don't feel like even starting this up again.

 

[Bohrn]

If you don't want to run it, (or any other mod you don't believe in) don't friggin run it!!

It does work. Period. Its not rocket science. Been around for over half a century.

No need to hack on those who have embraced its simplicity and have benefited by the union.

 

[98spydert]

If you don't want to run it, (or any other mod you don't believe in) don't friggin run it!!

It does work. Period. Its not rocket science. Been around for over half a century.

No need to hack on those who have embraced its simplicity and have benefited by the union.

If this is directed towards me, I have no problem with water injection. I'm actually working on water/meth set-ups for both of my DSMs. What I was irritated at is someone who argues a point they know nothing about. Backing up a statement with something you read on a message board is ridiculous. Backing up a statement with basic physics and science or links to credible sources is something that is worth reading and learning from. Water injection and alcohol injection is a mystery to most DSMers and isn't really widely used. A lot of people want to know more about it and I think any discussion that involves either should be backed up with real information, not hear say and not anecdotal evidence (i.e. lame story telling).

 

[Bohrn]

well, I personally know Jehu. He is an engineer. Professionally. He can probably give you heat latency equations off the top of his head. If there is such a thing, I am not an engineer.

I am running a system that he designed. So are several other people. All with excellent results.

Its not what he read on the net or what his brother told him, I assure you

 

[Funk1]

Aquamist (the ONLY way to go IMHO)

2 nozzles, 5mm and 6mm

5mm pre-intercooler
6mm pre-throttle body

If you had a big front mount I/C you could just go with one big nozzle pre-throttle body, but I'm running a side-mount so I put one before the I/C to reduce heat soak, and it really works!

The math says the car can use larger nozzles, but I was worried about stressing the pump too much so I thought I'd start with smaller nozzles - which are working fine.

For years I ran an "intercooler sprayer" where it sprayed on the outside of the intercooler. Let me tell you there's no comparison. Injecting inside the I/C (instead of on the outside of it) is like a night and day difference.

I have a very similar situation as you.

I have the A1s system into just the TB elbow, and am getting ready to upgrade to my EVOIII 16G. I have been having a hell of a time breaking the 14.3 barrier on my SM 16g. But since I like the Stealth look of a LSMIC vs. a FMIC, I was contemplating adding another nozzle before the SMIC.

My question is do you have another solenoid running the 2nd injector? or are you just "T-ing" them together and having them come on at the same time?

What boost do you have your WI set to come on at?

Thanks

 

[98spydert]

Its not what he read on the net or what his brother told him, I assure you

I was refering to the other guy I thanked Jehu for his great information

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

A final note from me.....this goes to all the injectors out there.....

Prior to H2O injection I was running heat range 7 plugs.....and it was fine....it was fine for the H2O as well.....but I recently switched back to heat range 6 plugs and the car feels much better.

There was really no way to read the plugs because the water cleans everything up....however my butt dyno tells me the 6's are the hot ticket.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Sorry I guess my real world results along with about 5 other Buick friends are only pulling things out of our asses (the quote from the Buick board has a reputation in the Buick community compared to that of Shepherd). I don't care if you believe what I posted, like I said it is real world, and I take those over theory any day. If you don't believe what I posted check the Buick setups with alky for 9-10-11 second street setups using alcohol kits, with methanol. And if you think I'm just posting random crap, like I care what you think, everyone can post "I know him he is a rocket scientist", we don't have to believe any thing. I am giving my real world results and opinions, if you don't like them, that's fine. But I put the test to you then, try alcohol, try water, try methanol, try and mixture and see what works the best. Every setup and every situation is going to be different, what is good for one person might be disasterous for another. If you want to see it in person, come to the DSM shootout and look for the black talon running low 12's on pump gas with a small16g. I gave my piece of what I have found and will no longer argue with people here, especially those who haven't tried different injections like water/alky/methanol.

"My brother the engineer... the Buick guys said... I read once... I think I recall..." Obviously anyone with and brains can pick out the good information is this rediculous argument. Thank you for all of your real input Jehu.

Hmm guess you didn't see that he didn't post any real world experience of his own or link information to people who have. His real imput was about water and the harms of methanol, nothing about the results from injecting either water or alcohol. Oh he did post information about a motorcycle test, which doesn't relate at all. Like I said go over to turbobuick.com and see for yourselfs, I have nothing to prove just trying to help others with the setup and seeing that methanol can contribute more than water. Basically you guys are saying posting quotes from other sites is like lying or hear say, do others view this board the same way?

Here information about all sorts of things, should help as well:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149777&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145697&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139112&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120648&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115127&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106514&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/alkyrecipe.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/alkyrecipe.html

Also I'm not the other guy, you can call me Damian and although everyone has different opinions and results, I'd like to keep it civil here. I have respect for all the information that is being put forth.

 

[98spydert]

Here information about all sorts of things, should help as well:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149777&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

Ok, another story telling thread just relayed through more people. You know a copy of a copy get's more and more distorted...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145697&highlight=Alcohol+vs+Water

Ok, bad information, story telling, and a WHOLE lot of bench racing in this one. How can injecting water not make horse power? Injecting water reduces intake temp. Plain and simple. Yes that allows you to raise boost some but another one of those "theories" comes back and says for every 11 degrees you cool the intake air, you gain 1% of TQ. The GN guys report that on average, 100% water reduces their intake temp 50 degrees so do the math. So yes; injecting water with no other changes makes more power. Obviously not a lot compaired to alky/H2O combos or 100%+raising the boost or increasing timing to a certain extent or increasing AFR.

I was orignally going to go through each and ever thread and pick it apart but there's no point in that and I don't have the paitence or motivation. Simply put, the main point of injectiong water is to cool the incoming AIR. The main point of injecting methonal is to raise octane and cool the COMBUSTION temp, not the incoming air temp. When people keep saying "meth cools better than water" they're compairing two different cooling effects. This had been proven in your beloved buick forums where they tested many different combinations and 100% water cools the intake air the most. BUT, on a knock limited engine (FI) you have the ability to make more power by adding alcohol 99% of the time just like you can make more power by adding 110 over 91/93. A lot of people like the "steam cleaning" effect of water on your intake track and combustion chamber and the cooling of the intake air so we use 27/75 to keep some of that water.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

I'm not really sure what you yahoos are arguing about......

Not very many DSM guys are gonna add an H2O system and not advance timing or boost unless they had knock issues to start with.

Whether you use straight distilled water, alchohol, methanol, or xylene doesn't really matter. Try them all to see what works best for you and your budget.

I will tell you that I am using alchohol because I cannot find a decent price on methanol here in Wisconsin. I know I can order it online but its like $10/gallon and it should only be $3/gallon.

Anyway....everyone I know.....everyone....including myself....was able to pick up noticable HP from the addition of an injection system. On my DSMLink I was able to add timing, remove fuel, increase boost, and eliminate knock.

It is by far the best mod I have done. It adds safety and power.

Enjoy,
JJ

 

[Steve Hebert]

I'm not really sure what you yahoos are arguing about......

Not very many DSM guys are gonna add an H2O system and not advance timing or boost unless they had knock issues to start with.

Whether you use straight distilled water, alchohol, methanol, or xylene doesn't really matter. Try them all to see what works best for you and your budget.

I will tell you that I am using alchohol because I cannot find a decent price on methanol here in Wisconsin. I know I can order it online but its like $10/gallon and it should only be $3/gallon.

Anyway....everyone I know.....everyone....including myself....was able to pick up noticable HP from the addition of an injection system. On my DSMLink I was able to add timing, remove fuel, increase boost, and eliminate knock.

It is by far the best mod I have done. It adds safety and power.

Enjoy,
JJ

Thanks for getting this thread back on it's original track - this is what I'm looking for when I read this thread.

 

[98spydert]

Back on track...

I'd like to re-wire my system with a manual on off switch for the pump (kind of a master arm switch) and use the pressure switch or nitrous controlls in DSMLink to operate a solinoid to activate the injection. What solinoid would work best for this and where can I get one?

 

[doug]

Seems like I read somewhere (maybe the DSMLink forums) about how to use the Fuel Pressure Solenoid to do that, similar to how you might use it for nitrous.

 

[kicker91laser]

You can get a solenoid valve from coolingmist, McMaster Carr also carries them.

 

[psychlow]

If someone could please explain to me how you can create power by ONLY adding water into the combustion mix, by all means, please explain.

Power is created by the expansion of an air/fuel mix that takes up little space to the byproducts of combustion that take up a lot of space. The more heat you add to air, the more space it takes up, which translates to more power.

Merely cooling combustion will create less power. That's physics. No way around it.

The only way I can see that adding water only would add power is when the liquid water converts to steam, which takes away heat but takes up more space and creating more pressure in itself - similar to the way a pressure cooker works.

Oh yeah - adding race fuel with no other changes will not affect performance appreciably if the engine operates correctly on regular gas. The only reason race fuel exists is to make the engine run timing, compression, boost, etc. that you couldn't run otherwise.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

Honestly if you want to really control your injection system do like I did and get the boost sensative progressive controller from snow performace. I have my spay start at 10PSI 25% the max value....its progressive and raises duty cycle till I hit 20PSI then it goes to 100% value. When running like this I cannot even feel the spray come on.

As for making more power with only the addition of water.....most people are not running at 100% efficiency....they have a heat soaking intercooler that is pulling timing and causing knock. Adding H2O can fix both of these problems. If you are running at 100% there's no way to get 110%. However.....Even if you have a great tune.....alot of fuel is used to cool the charge not to make power. When removing this fuel and replacing it with water you actually run leaner and this often makes more power.

 

[kicker91laser]

Honestly if you want to really control your injection system do like I did and get the boost sensative progressive controller from snow performace. I have my spay start at 10PSI 25% the max value....its progressive and raises duty cycle till I hit 20PSI then it goes to 100% value. When running like this I cannot even feel the spray come on.

As for making more power with only the addition of water.....most people are not running at 100% efficiency....they have a heat soaking intercooler that is pulling timing and causing knock. Adding H2O can fix both of these problems. If you are running at 100% there's no way to get 110%. However.....Even if you have a great tune.....alot of fuel is used to cool the charge not to make power. When removing this fuel and replacing it with water you actually run leaner and this often makes more power.

I was looking into those controllers, how is yours set up? Does it just vary the voltage to the pump or how does it work?

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

The device fluctuates the power to the pump to provide only a portion of the max flow. This happens very quickly...(its just like a progressive nitrous controller). I go from 10 psi to 20 psi in less than a second. The reviews from others are just as shining as mine.

It all boost sensative so there isn't any harness hacking or mechanical switches to rig up. Install took me about an hour and I ran a water line from the rear to the motor under the carpet.

 

[trick engine]

Has anyone tried injecting 116 race fuel instead of the denatured alky ?????