Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

[16g-95gsx]

Hmm. Alright, Ive somewhat begun searching around, piecing together the best possible dual nozzle setup I can. Personally, I think the 60psi pump is too low, turning it up to 100psi would work, however being that you are now overworking the motor more than it was originally intended somewhat concerns me. I am concerned about longevity. Anyone know where the best place/price is for the 100psi Shurflo pump? Also what appears to be the difference between the 1gpm and the 1.8gpm models? There is a 10 dollar price difference there, and they obviously flow much different volumetric rates, perhaps the 1.8 has a larger motor.

Personally 60psi, without being turned up, seems entirely too low. At full boost, I expect at least 25psi on pump gas, as I am currently at 24psi as is, and at 60psi of water pressure that leaves only 35psi across the nozzle, not even enough to make the nozzle operate correctly, let alone really spray anything.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

moderator edit: I have nothing to sell, and will keep all my for sale posts in the classifieds where they belong

 

[kicker91laser]

Coolingmist has 100psi pumps they also carry 125psi pumps

 

[Bohrn]

for the extra $10 get the bigger pump. and get an accumulator. It makes the pump work alot less. Even pulling up a long hill, keeping it in the boost, it only pulses once every 2 seconds or so. Not continuously on.

 

[16g-95gsx]

Yea but they ask 80 bucks for that pump, and you can tell that it is nothing more than a shurflo pump. If the 1.8gpm 60psi pump is 55 bucks, and the 1gpm 60psi pump is 45 bucks, seems to me the 100psi pump could also be had for close to that pricing.

 

[16g-95gsx]

Can no one name a compatible 2+ gallon tank for an injection system such as this? The stock washer tank is great and all, but a 2+ gallon tank would be much more ideal. I imagine fuel cells can be used, however I'm wondering if other cars dont come with tanks capable of this amount already, that are virtually setup the same (2+ gallon washer tank with 12v level indicator).

 

[coolingmist]

Can no one name a compatible 2+ gallon tank for an injection system such as this? The stock washer tank is great and all, but a 2+ gallon tank would be much more ideal. I imagine fuel cells can be used, however I'm wondering if other cars dont come with tanks capable of this amount already, that are virtually setup the same (2+ gallon washer tank with 12v level indicator).

this link has 1.5 qt to 2.5 gallon tanks.

http://coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?feature_key=Water_tanks

 

[Slippi84]

Ok there has been a lot of info on here most of it useful some of it a little much for the average guy who isn't a mad scientist so I'm gonna try and get some real world joe schmoe info hear. I have a fmic that is 31x12x4 so heat soak is not a problem. The big question is which will alow me to run more boost 100% water or %Alky. I can tell that not many people like the 50/50 mix which is what seems to be in most winshield wiper fluids. The huge benefit I see in favor of water injection is that I won't have to retune afterwards cause your not adding fuel. Problem is the main benefit of water over alky or atleast what people seem to say is the benefit is that it absorbs heat better but heat isn't a problem for me. The only thing I could think of is running a lot of boost where heat would become a problem and then water would shine for me. Any thoughts and lets try and keep the science talk to a minimum if possible guys

 

[dnhieu]

Ok there has been a lot of info on here most of it useful some of it a little much for the average guy who isn't a mad scientist so I'm gonna try and get some real world joe schmoe info hear. I have a fmic that is 31x12x4 so heat soak is not a problem. The big question is which will alow me to run more boost 100% water or %Alky. I can tell that not many people like the 50/50 mix which is what seems to be in most winshield wiper fluids. The huge benefit I see in favor of water injection is that I won't have to retune afterwards cause your not adding fuel. Problem is the main benefit of water over alky or atleast what people seem to say is the benefit is that it absorbs heat better but heat isn't a problem for me. The only thing I could think of is running a lot of boost where heat would become a problem and then water would shine for me. Any thoughts and lets try and keep the science talk to a minimum if possible guys

running alky injection also raises the octaine of the fuel you are using. alot of people like to call it running race gas non stop. it also cleans alot of carbon build up in the intake manifold, and in the head.

 

[Slippi84]

Then the big question is which lets you run more boost&timing the raise in octane boost from alky or the intake tempeture drop and heat absorbtion of water injection?

 

[unclesam099]

Methanol gives you more power, but water gives a lot better cooling, keeping knock down and allowing timing/boost.

So that's why the 50/50 mix is ideal.

 

[kicker91laser]

Then the big question is which lets you run more boost&timing the raise in octane boost from alky or the intake tempeture drop and heat absorbtion of water injection?

Sounds like your fmic is plenty big to cool the air charge down, so straight alky injection may be more beneficial for your application.

 

[insanewayne]

I have known about WI for a few years, but I was wondering, do the properties of what the H2O does, and what Methanol does, change when they're mixed?

I'm asking this because I just read this entire thread, and noticed that everyone seems to lean towards 100% of either water, meth, or Denatured etc.

I'll be running a SCM-6169E with all the supporting mods and want to run 25-30 psi on 94 octane pump Daily Driven.

Right now, from what I've read I'm kind of leaning towards Straight Meth, but from what my brain tells me, 50/50 would be ideal and also be much easier to work with. I would imagine that straigh meth could take a toss on the metals in my intake over time.

Thanks,

Wayne

Oh, and I wanted to add this because I was surprised it wasn't mentioned already. I will be running my injection setup through the stock ECU using the open output for the Cyclone solenoid. I will write (or aquire) code allowing the voltage to vary depending on airflow, I'm glad I bought this chip burner. Should be nice.

 

[Bohrn]

1.) ANY temp drop you can achieve is beneficial. And even if you have the best air/air intercooler on the planet, you can only get the air inside as cold as the air outside. And that is a totally unrealistic ideal situation. So, yes water injection will benefit you even with a large intercooler.

2.) If you are using methanol or ethanol or any other combustible material, you ARE adding fuel.

3.) from personal experience(both mine and others) if you have enough fuel and the ability to control it(pump, injectors and safc etc) you don't need to run straight alcohol, you can mix it. Water when vaporizing, takes more heat out of the charge than does straight alcohol.

4.) smurf piss, the cheaper the better is the best source of cheap, easily obtainable methanol/water, and its premixed 50/50. As well the little bit of blue dye is useful should you spring a leak because even when its dry, it leaves that telltale residue.

Wayne, mixing the 2 doesn't change the properties of either one, it just dilutes each one. Water and alco mix well. Keep us posted on the results of that variable voltage setup. Personally, that sounds overly complicated. Mine turns on when a certain boost pressure is reached. Simple. can you even make that solenoid output vary voltage? Isn't it just an on/off thing?

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok there has been a lot of info on here most of it useful some of it a little much for the average guy who isn't a mad scientist so I'm gonna try and get some real world joe schmoe info hear. I have a fmic that is 31x12x4 so heat soak is not a problem. The big question is which will alow me to run more boost 100% water or %Alky. I can tell that not many people like the 50/50 mix which is what seems to be in most winshield wiper fluids. The huge benefit I see in favor of water injection is that I won't have to retune afterwards cause your not adding fuel. Problem is the main benefit of water over alky or atleast what people seem to say is the benefit is that it absorbs heat better but heat isn't a problem for me. The only thing I could think of is running a lot of boost where heat would become a problem and then water would shine for me. Any thoughts and lets try and keep the science talk to a minimum if possible guys

When running straight H2O, you will want to run about 12%-18% h2o to fuel. When running alky, you'll want to run about 3 times more than that. When running a mix you will need to be somewhere in the middle. Get a nozzle that is about in the middle of these two flow precentages and adjust your pump pressure to fine tune. It is that simple. I prefer a50/50 mix it does best in every turbo car i've run. I've run 5 different platforms with water/alky (tubo ford, turbo buick, KA24 turbo, 5sfe turbo camry, dsm) all liked the mix.

The alcohol aids in cooing the intake cahrge. You HUGE intercooler will never ever touch how cold alky will get the air charge. Then later when the mix enters the combustion chamber the water does by far the best. It turns to steam and in the process takes way more heat (h2o has a much higher plecific heat than meth or any other alky) out of the chamber than alky can. And certainly does better than the simple ambient air charge that you intercooler supplied alone. This lowers the chances of preignition nearly to zero. That's why the mix works best. You have to properly size the nozzle for the mix. If you've sized a nozzle for water injection then decide to go ta mix, it usually won't benfit your setup and many times (in my case) was not as effective.

So now that you have an aircharge that is most often well below ambient and you have a cool combustion chamber then you see how you can run more timing and/or more boost and/or lean out. All to get you more powre. But the fun doesn't stop here. The H2O continues to work for you. It slows the burn down in the combusion chamber. It slows this burn down to the same burn rate of 110 or octane gas. So guess what?! You now have an effective octane of 110 and you paid $1 for a gallon of distilled water and $3 dollars for a gallon of rubbing alcohol (I run this).

So in summary: 110 effective octane, sub-ambient aircharge temperatures, cool combution chamber. Now you can get away with a WHOLE LOT more everything, boost timing, comression ratios, leaner mix.

 

[dsm-onster]

I have known about WI for a few years, but I was wondering, do the properties of what the H2O does, and what Methanol does, change when they're mixed?

I'm asking this because I just read this entire thread, and noticed that everyone seems to lean towards 100% of either water, meth, or Denatured etc.

I'll be running a SCM-6169E with all the supporting mods and want to run 25-30 psi on 94 octane pump Daily Driven.

Right now, from what I've read I'm kind of leaning towards Straight Meth, but from what my brain tells me, 50/50 would be ideal and also be much easier to work with. I would imagine that straigh meth could take a toss on the metals in my intake over time.

Thanks,

Wayne

Oh, and I wanted to add this because I was surprised it wasn't mentioned already. I will be running my injection setup through the stock ECU using the open output for the Cyclone solenoid. I will write (or aquire) code allowing the voltage to vary depending on airflow, I'm glad I bought this chip burner. Should be nice.

I prefer water/alky mix. The winter mix wiper fluid with NO SOAP in it is best. And besides methanol has an octane rating of 117 or so. If you're goin to run a mix,. I've found that a nozzle that flows the same as one of you injectors is just right. The mix doesn't freeze and see my post above. The alky in the mix breaks into smaller particles earlier so that it can cool thae air down quicky. It Though water eventually takes more heat out of the aircharge. It takes more time unless it is closer to its boiling point. meth boils sooner. So that's why it cools the air down quicker and faster. However, the water in the mix does it's magic in the combustion chamber. Where it is hot enough to instantly turn the water to steam. This takes much more heat out of the chamber than just simply trying to cool it with semi cool air from a huge fmic (prevents preignition). And the alky can't take as much heat out as the h2o and the h2o in fact continues to take heat out as the flame front develops after ignition and stablizes the gasses and a sleau of other things that cause it to lower the burn rate of pump gas to that of 110 octane race gas...

As i said before:

water/alky mix = sub-ambient air charge + cool combustion chamber + 110 octane =

 

[dsm-onster]

I've already posted this elseware recent'y but it's probably good to post it here being that this is a water injection thread:

Take a look at some points from http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html:

1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio. (try to achieve this with pump gas)
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.(transitional fueling is water injection, propane, nitrous, methenol, etc.)
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol mixture.(cheap winter mix wiper fluid is typically 49% water, 49% methenol, 2% blue dye)
4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available.(except in non-soap wiper fluid)
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95%, is cheap and is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content. (i use isopropyl: if you buy it at walmart you can get a 4 quarts for about $4. Often, it is untaxed because it is a HBA product.)
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.(injecting based on boost achieves this. Boost comes on somewhere around torque peak and remains consistant as airflow increases)
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don't flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.( no one i know does this. I inject at the tb elbow. Rule of thumb if you inject before the tb, mostlikely you'll have a decently disstributed mixture i.e. throttle body fuel injection, carburetors, etc.)
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It's always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. It cuts it with our low compression cars. As i said it's like running 108 all the time.)
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.(but now there are practical setups that deliver safe consistant results. My kit has run on two different cars now for about 4 years)
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.(sureflow pums are cheaper anyway)
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT's will peak.
27. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980's Formula1 period. We don't recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water.( if the italians can do it...)

More reading:

Combustion Chemistry
Water Injection Thermodynamics
Maximum Vaporized Mass of Water
alcohol injection
Hardware

 

[Slippi84]

Here's the big point though I see a lot of guys on here with smic and small fmic that are doing great things don't get me wrong but what about someone that has a big fmic and is lookin for a race gas effect. Is there anyone with a big turbo using water injection AND a good fmic that still uses water injection to help them run big boost. I myself am pretty much sold on water/alky injection but I want to see if it's more a smic guy kinda upgrade. I saw someone say that they got better results from just water then they did from the windshiled stuff is this the consesus or more just one guys experience?

 

[Slippi84]

I've already posted this elseware recent'y but it's probably good to post it here being that this is a water injection thread:

Take a look at some points from http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html:

1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio. (try to achieve this with pump gas)
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.(transitional fueling is water injection, propane, nitrous, methenol, etc.)
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol mixture.(cheap winter mix wiper fluid is typically 49% water, 49% methenol, 2% blue dye)
4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available.(except in non-soap wiper fluid)
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95%, is cheap and is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content. (i use isopropyl: if you buy it at walmart you can get a 4 quarts for about $4. Often, it is untaxed because it is a HBA product.)
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.(injecting based on boost achieves this. Boost comes on somewhere around torque peak and remains consistant as airflow increases)
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don't flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.( no one i know does this. I inject at the tb elbow. Rule of thumb if you inject before the tb, mostlikely you'll have a decently disstributed mixture i.e. throttle body fuel injection, carburetors, etc.)
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It's always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. It cuts it with our low compression cars. As i said it's like running 108 all the time.)
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.(but now there are practical setups that deliver safe consistant results. My kit has run on two different cars now for about 4 years)
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.(sureflow pums are cheaper anyway)
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT's will peak.
27. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980's Formula1 period. We don't recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water.( if the italians can do it...)

More reading:

Combustion Chemistry
Water Injection Thermodynamics
Maximum Vaporized Mass of Water
alcohol injection
Hardware

DOes this mean that if your using water/alky injection and pump you want your a/f ratio to be around 12:5:1 and if your just pump gas you want 13:12:1?

 

[dsm-onster]

Here's the big point though I see a lot of guys on here with smic and small fmic that are doing great things don't get me wrong but what about someone that has a big fmic and is lookin for a race gas effect. Is there anyone with a big turbo using water injection AND a good fmic that still uses water injection to help them run big boost. I myself am pretty much sold on water/alky injection but I want to see if it's more a smic guy kinda upgrade. I saw someone say that they got better results from just water then they did from the windshiled stuff is this the consesus or more just one guys experience?

No intercooler, no matter how large, can come close to cooling hte aircharge like water/alky injection. Cooler air = denser air =more air = more power.

No intercooler, no matter how large can take the heat out of the combution chamber as much as water when it vaporizes.

No intercooler, no matter how large can slow the burn rate down anywhere near as much as water/steam.

So if one car is running 50 psi with an intercooler the size of a mac truck radiator, he can turn the boost up (proviided the turbo flows enough) if he were to add water injection. It is for anyone who wants to get the most out of their setup no matter what that setup is. I am running a decent sized fmic and water/alky injection. Needless to say, after a pull, my whole intake manifold is ICE cold to the touch. It's for anyone who wants to get the most out of their setup. Not just for a band-aid over a small and/or poorly located intercooler.

 

[dsm-onster]

DOes this mean that if your using water/alky injection and pump you want your a/f ratio to be around 12:5:1 and if your just pump gas you want 13:12:1?

No, it is stating that maximum torque occurs at around 13.2:1 A/F ratio. and that no one in their right mind would try loading an engine at such an a/f ratio running pump gas. . . unless in fact they were looking to melt a piston, burn a ring, bend a rod, put a hole in their block, lift a head, or any combination thereof.

12.5:1 is considered ideal for most race gas octanes. This is still not optimum but close. It is stating that water/alky injection gets you in this area, in effect turning your pump gas into race gas for FAR cheaper.

 

[Slippi84]

I'm gonna start a poll cause there are a lot of guys using water/alky injection and I want to find out what people on here find to work the best. If your running or running come take the poll.

 

[Bohrn]

very good stuff, love it, thank you.

some of my theories are proving out.

 

[dsm-onster]

very good stuff, love it, thank you.

some of my theories are proving out.

Not to be a rep-point-hooker, but i'll take 'em. They're free . And my fingers hurt from typing .

What have been your theories? are they in this thread? Do tell. . .

 

[DSM PERFORMANCE]

12.5:1 is considered ideal for most race gas octanes. This is still not optimum but close. It is stating that water/alky injection gets you in this area, in effect turning your pump gas into race gas for FAR cheaper.

I'm interested to run WI (windshield washer) and I've got 3 questions :

1) (Sorry to ask the same question, I preffer double check) With windshield washer injection I can tune to a A/F ratio of 12.5:1 instead of 11:1 ?? Is that right ?

2) How much more boost I could normally expect ?

Knock don't seems to be a big issue for me, but leaning. I run daily driven (FP3052 + big FMIC) 23psi without knock (11:1) on 94 and I did run 26psi this winter on 94, I was lean but I had no knock... could it be possible to run 26psi or more without running too lean ?

3) I do Roadracing, but had a hard time with overheating after 10-15mins, could it help ?

Thank's a lot, I've read all the thread, and appreciated people sharing their experience.