Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

[compression]

If the ecu retards for every 3 counts of knock over 7 and still includes that 7 then

24 counts of knock / 3 counts of knock per degree of timing pulled = 8 degrees of timing pulled

That's where I got 8 from

ah ha! i knew something was wrong,

1-6 knock there is no timing being pulled

so even at 24 knock 6 counts doesnt count because it wasnt pulling then.

so technically

24-6= 18


because timing didnt start being pulled until 7* so for every 3 counts AFTER 7 1* of timing is pulled.

18/3=6

so my timing would have been pulled down by 6* ='ing 18* of timing advancement

 

[Slippi84]

and 24-8= 16, so at that situation my timing would have been pulled to 16 , i misunderstood before. i though you ment it was pulled all the way down to 8* of timing

I don't think you understand how the safc and knock are related. Your ecu will not advace timing if knock is present. So your would timing would never have made it to 24. Timing advance only accurs when knock isn't present and your car didn't just go straight to 24 counts of knock. This could all be solved with just a uploaded log. If you have a logger which I hope you do go do a WOT pull and log it and tell us where timing and knock are so we can end all this guessing.

 

[compression]

rpm..................knock.................timing....................tps

3062.................0..........................27*..................100%
3218.................0..........................29*..................100%
3406.................0..........................27*..................100%
3937.................0..........................27*..................100%
4250.................12........................18*..................100%
4593.................18........................15*..................100%
5250.................18........................15*..................100%
5812.................24........................13*..................100%
6375.................23........................12*..................100%
6625.................23........................11*..................100%
6906.................22........................10*..................100%
7093.................23........................10*..................100%

 

[compression]

I don't think you understand how the safc and knock are related. Your ecu will not advace timing if knock is present. So your would timing would never have made it to 24. Timing advance only accurs when knock isn't present and your car didn't just go straight to 24 counts of knock. This could all be solved with just a uploaded log. If you have a logger which I hope you do go do a WOT pull and log it and tell us where timing and knock are so we can end all this guessing.

i dont think i ever specified at what rpms i started to knock , so for all you know i could have started knocking at 6k rpms while i has allready shot up to 30* of timing without knock. and i have made it to 30*. i do it quite often. but i run race gas quite often. i usually put 5-6 gallons when i go to the track and that lasts me a week , (gets diluted with some 93 octane) .

 

[compression]

That means nothing. I have to tighten my clamps with the finger of God for my water injection setups. Who's to say that the pressure it take s to blow off your hose is enough to blow off mine (that cound be take n the wrong way ). Besides, presure and flow are two totally different tthings.

despite what i say , you are right, i hooked up the injector to a stock fuel pump and it misted, so i do not think the cavalier windshield washer pump is putting enough pressure to mist properly, but the angle of the injector sprays right into the other side of the tb elbow so i think it hits the wall and then splatters and mists off of that, which in this case poor design seemed to work out .

i will get pictures of my setup and do a write up of it , so if anyone wants to do this great mod for under 30$ (given you have the proper materials) they will know how.

 

[compression]

Who's to say that the pressure it take s to blow off your hose is enough to blow off mine

WTF

what are you trying to say?

 

[Slippi84]

rpm..................knock.................timing....................tps

3062.................0........................27*.....................100%
3218.................0........................29*.....................100%
3406.................0........................27*.....................100%
3937.................0........................27*.....................100%
4250.................12.......................18*....................100%
4593.................18........................15*...................100%
5250.................18........................15*...................100%
5812.................24.........................13*..................100%
6375.................23.........................12*..................100%
6625.................23.........................11*..................100%
6906.................22.........................10*..................100%
7093.................23.........................10*..................100%

I wouldn't doubt that SOMETIMES you make it to 30 degrees of timing but if I was a betting man most of your pulls will look like this. It did exactly what I thought and said it would. Timing advanced stopped as soon as you went over 7 counts of knock. Using what we already agreed on before you timing should have only been pulled 1 or 2 degrees with the 12 counts of knock, but it dropped 9 degrees. That's because your timing went back down to what it would be without timing advance and then retarded the 1 or 2 degrees. You keep talkin like your timing will just keep advancing and then when it sees so much know it will stay that high and retard from there it doesn't work that way. The timing advance stopps and you return to what base timing should be at that given rpm and then retards from there.

 

[Slippi84]

i dont think i ever specified at what rpms i started to knock , so for all you know i could have started knocking at 6k rpms while i has allready shot up to 30* of timing without knock. and i have made it to 30*. i do it quite often. but i run race gas quite often. i usually put 5-6 gallons when i go to the track and that lasts me a week , (gets diluted with some 93 octane) .

unless it's phantom knock it won't usualy just appear at max knock at a given rpm it will build up so you didn't have to tell me i knew from experience that your knock started earlier

 

[compression]

I wouldn't doubt that SOMETIMES you make it to 30 degrees of timing but if I was a betting man most of your pulls will look like this. It did exactly what I thought and said it would. Timing advanced stopped as soon as you went over 7 counts of knock. Using what we already agreed on before you timing should have only been pulled 1 or 2 degrees with the 12 counts of knock, but it dropped 9 degrees. That's because your timing went back down to what it would be without timing advance and then retarded the 1 or 2 degrees. You keep talkin like your timing will just keep advancing and then when it sees so much know it will stay that high and retard from there it doesn't work that way. The timing advance stopps and you return to what base timing should be at that given rpm and then retards from there.

oh. sorry i missunderstood. i feel stupid..

 

[Slippi84]

oh. sorry i missunderstood. i feel stupid..

Naw man don't feel stupid I wasn't out to prove you wrong just show you how it works. Trust me I don't knwo everything about it either just trying to help and contribute. Like i didn't think that cars could survive that many counts of knock you tought me something too.

 

[Baron4406]

no.

injector size x # of cylinders x injector duty cycle = fuel flowing at that giving time


flowing fuel x 20% ( water to fuel ) = max allowed water to spray .

so you are 550x4x70%=1540cc's


1540x20%=308cc's of water allowed to inject into your engine at 70% injdc or higher.so by injecting 500cc's you would probably hydro lock your engine

Well that's for straight water right?? I plan on using Smurf Piss (50/50). Also I assume it would be better to get a few nozzle sizes, to account for future mods.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes. You should provide a much larger nozzle for a 50/50 water alky mix. Most who find succes with straight methanol (what's in washer fluid) endup running a total nozzle flow that would be 3 times that which would be recommended for pure h2o injection at the same hp level. Keep in mind that it's not that the alky makes the injection less efficient. The larger nozzle is needed to get the most from the different/ benefits meth and other alcohols provide. Methanol has a 50% oxygen content by weight !

Don't forget that only "winter mix" is 50/50. . .

 

[Baron4406]

Yes. You should provide a much larger nozzle for a 50/50 water alky mix. Most who find succes with straight methanol (what's in washer fluid) endup running a total nozzle flow that would be 3 times that which would be recommended for pure h2o injection at the same hp level. Keep in mind that it's not that the alky makes the injection less efficient. The larger nozzle is needed to get the most from the different/ benefits meth and other alcohols provide. Methanol has a 50% oxygen content by weight !

That was what I was thinking. The 300cc he figured out would be great for straight water, but I'm gonna be running 50/50. If I was running straight Methanol I'd need an injector 3 times as big (900cc). So I thought 500cc was a nice comprimise. However you seem to be saying I should go bigger, if I'm too big then I can just lower the psi of the pump. However I'm all over Cooling Mist's web site and can't see if their pump is adjustable.

 

[sk8shorty01]

After reading all this i was wondering because i was kind of in a toss up whether to go with the methanol injection or nitrous fogger on my intercooler with nitrous express' N-tercooler kit. Based on my mods which would you say is better for my setup? I already have the N-tercooler kit but i could always sell that and go with the methanol if that is the better way to go.


-T25bb turbo
-injection block with 2 injectors
-injection/boost controller
-light weight flywheel
-SPEC racing stage 2 clutch
-Greddy FMIC
-Greddy type rs BOV
-Full turbo back Greddy evo2 exhaust (2.5 inch)
-Greddy high flow cat

 

[2-0turbo]

Yes. You should provide a much larger nozzle for a 50/50 water alky mix. Most who find succes with straight methanol (what's in washer fluid) endup running a total nozzle flow that would be 3 times that which would be recommended for pure h2o injection at the same hp level. Keep in mind that it's not that the alky makes the injection less efficient. The larger nozzle is needed to get the most from the different/ benefits meth and other alcohols provide. Methanol has a 50% oxygen content by weight !

Don't forget that only "winter mix" is 50/50. . .

Unless they sell some other stuff where you are at, I doubt it is a50/50 mixture. Anything above a 33% solution of water/methanol is flammable, so caution should be used. A typical "winter" blend of windshield washer fluid would be rated at -20*F (at least in my neck of the woods). Amazingly, that works out to a 33% solution. See http://nugentec.com/FAQ/Freezing%20Point%20Flash%20Points.htm for a list of mixtures. Find the "freezing point" on the jug and this will tell you what proportion you are dealing with. Happy boosting!

 

[dsm-onster]

Unless they sell some other stuff where you are at, I doubt it is a50/50 mixture. Anything above a 33% solution of water/methanol is flammable, so caution should be used. A typical "winter" blend of windshield washer fluid would be rated at -20*F (at least in my neck of the woods). Amazingly, that works out to a 33% solution. See http://nugentec.com/FAQ/Freezing%20Point%20Flash%20Points.htm for a list of mixtures. Find the "freezing point" on the jug and this will tell you what proportion you are dealing with. Happy boosting!

Great points. But, I was under the impression that since the water in the mix is not "pure" as it contains glycol, soap(in some cases), and small percentages of other products), the percentage of methanol is increased from what would be neccesary for simple water. There was information on "ice nuclei" and that webside you're referring to somewhere on the aquamist forum. . . Though I cannot find the thread right now . It explains this far better than I would.

 

[Slippi84]

After reading all this i was wondering because i was kind of in a toss up whether to go with the methanol injection or nitrous fogger on my intercooler with nitrous express' N-tercooler kit. Based on my mods which would you say is better for my setup? I already have the N-tercooler kit but i could always sell that and go with the methanol if that is the better way to go.


-T25bb turbo
-injection block with 2 injectors
-injection/boost controller
-light weight flywheel
-SPEC racing stage 2 clutch
-Greddy FMIC
-Greddy type rs BOV
-Full turbo back Greddy evo2 exhaust (2.5 inch)
-Greddy high flow cat

Do you really have a ball bearing t25. I hope that's not the same t25 that comes with the 2g's stock just ball bearing .

 

[Baron4406]

Well Cooling Mist's 100 psi pump isn't adjustable, and both them and BeCool want HP estimates to figure injector size. Well I'm not a Supra guy I could care less what HP my car has, I want 1/4 mile times. So Should I just get a couple of sizes of injectors??

Also they rate their injectors in Gallons per hour, not cc's.

 

[compression]

Well Cooling Mist's 100 psi pump isn't adjustable, and both them and BeCool want HP estimates to figure injector size. Well I'm not a Supra guy I could care less what HP my car has, I want 1/4 mile times. So Should I just get a couple of sizes of injectors??

thats who i got my boost activated switch form , for the main ingredient in my own water injection kit, i will try to use all of this stuff first and then since i have a 240cc injector i will try to fill my resivoir with water and ice will this fluck anything up?

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

So, who on here is running straight H2O?

I'm on stock internals, and don't feel like grenading the motor, but I really feel that the motor is healthy enough and will handle 450awhp or a little more on a pump gas/water injection setup at whatever boost needed to reach that goal. I suppose it is time to get a bare block and start piecing together a forged motor and all to run real boost and make big numbers, but this will have to hold me over.

/rambling

So, I suppose what I want to know is, will my goals be reachable on pure H2O? I mean, guys put down these numbers on pump gas alone, so I suppose I should be pretty well off, but I might as well ask now.

I will be following this guide with a few exceptions.

Any thoughts?

 

[dsm-onster]

So, who on here is running straight H2O?

I'm on stock internals, and don't feel like grenading the motor, but I really feel that the motor is healthy enough and will handle 450awhp or a little more on a pump gas/water injection setup at whatever boost needed to reach that goal. I suppose it is time to get a bare block and start piecing together a forged motor and all to run real boost and make big numbers, but this will have to hold me over.

/rambling

So, I suppose what I want to know is, will my goals be reachable on pure H2O? I mean, guys put down these numbers on pump gas alone, so I suppose I should be pretty well off, but I might as well ask now.

I will be following this guide with a few exceptions.

Any thoughts?

Not that I condone operating your vehicle in this fashion (and I'm sure you're wise enough to know better), but I got a way with over 20 psi on pump gas w/ a stock IC stock fuel (rewired pump) w/ a small 16g overrunning a stock 1G maf. I ran pure water, in the summer months. My maf was fluctuating horribly and I regret the risk. But only occasionally recorded knock. 90% of the time I saw 0-3 counts.

I prefer the mix because I feel more throttle response. Besure you up your nozzle size. I attribute the enhanced throttle response from the 50% oxygen content by weight of the methenol. AND the heightened aircharge cooling effect of alcohol vs. water. Alcohol can cool the aircharge quicker because it atomizes into finer droplets. So the air is denser entering the combution chamber. The nozzle increase (from my point of view) is to maintain the proper water volume to do it's job in the combustion chamber itself (where the meth would burn).

Nevertheless, many have had great success w/ pure H2O. Aquamist states in their FAQ page that running pure water is ideal.

 

[compression]

so my switch broke, air leaks out everywhere and isnt triggering the switch, and the throttle body elbow i was using leaks. ( dejon tool , ) i think its warped or has something because i see no apparent reason why it would leak, i tried straigh gasket and i tried rtv nothing works, so i am getting another switch and fabbing anothing way to mount my injector into my intake system.

 

[dsm-onster]

Great points. But, I was under the impression that since the water in the mix is not "pure" as it contains glycol, soap(in some cases), and small percentages of other products), the percentage of methanol is increased from what would be neccesary for simple water. There was information on "ice nuclei" and that webside you're referring to somewhere on the aquamist forum. . . Though I cannot find the thread right now . It explains this far better than I would.

. . . I found it it is a sticky on the waterinjection.info (aquamist) forums. In the Injection Mixtures forum headed "Freezing Point - Best Mixture".

 

[compression]

being only 17 years old i feel i can keep up to most of the technical discussions you have. if im wrong about something i will blame it on my age and what ever lack of experience i may have .

almost hit 350 posts and my repuatation is still unknown, i believe i have helped out in at LEAST one post ive made.

back on topic, you can purchase pressure switches from worldmagnetics.com for $14.00 if you wanted to fab up your own water injection kit like me.

 

[Slippi84]

being only 17 years old i feel i can keep up to most of the technical discussions you have. if im wrong about something i will blame it on my age and what ever lack of experience i may have .

almost hit 350 posts and my repuatation is still unknown, i believe i have helped out in at LEAST one post ive made.

back on topic, you can purchase pressure switches from worldmagnetics.com for $14.00 if you wanted to fab up your own water injection kit like me.

I have over 400 post and I have only been a member for like a year maybe not even. It's just how much of a tuners adict you are.