Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

[heavypedalmuzic]

eliminates knock causes better timing etc. sounds good. what kind power gains have you guys experienced since adding your WI kit?

 

[97TSIAWD]

The problem arises when you start runing straight methonal and realying on it for 20% or more of you fuel.

I would assume, any problems would be 99% of the installers fault. Myself I have run my alky kit for 2 years no problems, and my buddy with a kit on his GN and other cars has run them no problems for 6 years. As long as you do it right, it shouldn't be a problem. He also ran a 10.xx with a basically stock GN by turning up the boost. I also run stright denatured alcohol, which is composed mostly of methanol. Nothing should ever make the injector clog, unless the person who is putting the alcohol in some how got dirt or other debris in the tank, even then it has a filter on it so nothing bigger then a dust speck could get through. These kits are well engineered against any sort of failing.

As for my experience with the alcohol kit, higher boost, 4 degrees more timing and no knock. It is excellent. And I am able to use it on the street, and at the track even with race gas.

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

fuel pump won't cut it. Local guy tried and the insides of the pump rusted to shit.

As for fuel injectors, they would require a much fancier setup. Water injectors only require a drill/tap of the intercooler piping and run the water line. Thats it. Fuel injectors require a rail and machined holes on both ends, supply and return and electrical.

denso pumps are stainless and even stock dsm pumps work, i ran alcohol/water for 2 years with a stock dsm pump it even sat disconnnected an entire winter frozen in a water/alcohol mix and fired right up that summer when i put it back together. i also used 2 89 tpi camaro injectors to spray a nice mist pattern in the pipe.

 

[trick engine]

Well... i am thinking of just using straight fuel like methanol , or alky instead of water/mix .
but if i do this what type of air fuel ratio should i be looking for if running the denatured alcohol. should i still tune for 12.0 - 11.5 like i do now on high boost most likley running 22-25 psi on the street on 93 octane if possable. also what is a the price range for the denatured alchol and were can it be bought? I will try this and see how it works out .

 

[97TSIAWD]

Well... i am thinking of just using straight fuel like methanol , or alky instead of water/mix .
but if i do this what type of air fuel ratio should i be looking for if running the denatured alcohol. should i still tune for 12.0 - 11.5 like i do now on high boost most likley running 22-25 psi on the street on 93 octane if possable. also what is a the price range for the denatured alchol and were can it be bought? I will try this and see how it works out .

You can buy denatured at any DIY store. Home Depot is where I get mine, at about 9 dollars a gallon. Remember to add an ounce of uplon to lubricate the pump. After that tune for the same air fuel ratio, remember your adding basically more fuel and supressing knock, so go ahead and turn the boost up a pound at a time, do a log and then continue. Once you have the boost selected, tune at that specific boost with the alcohol. I noticed that going too higher boost wise on the small 16g didn't net any benefits to the car, didn't make it faster. But keeping it at the same levels that I normally ran on the street with pump gas, this time with alcohol also netted a much better and faster car. Good luck with it, and check out my installation and review of the smc kit in the tech articles.

 

[trick engine]

9 dollars a gallon kind of alot ... but i guess it all depends on how long it lasts . how offen did you have to fill up the akly tank? Also what is uplon and where do i get that ? and do i need to run it if i am using a fuel pump instead of a water pump? I am going to try to use a fuel pump and fuel injectors. does anyone know of a recommend size injector to use . I am running two extra injectors for this ... i figure i will start small say 250cc... and go bigger if needed.

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

9 dollars a gallon kind of alot ... but i guess it all depends on how long it lasts . how offen did you have to fill up the akly tank? Also what is uplon and where do i get that ? and do i need to run it if i am using a fuel pump instead of a water pump? I am going to try to use a fuel pump and fuel injectors. does anyone know of a recommend size injector to use . I am running two extra injectors for this ... i figure i will start small say 250cc... and go bigger if needed.

i used 2 camaro injectors which i think are 280's but i worked out the calculation for mix vs fuel i was using i can't remember it off the top of my head but it was somewhere around 450cc's i was to use. i also used a stock dsm pump for 2 years even through winter twenty5psi can prob comment on the setup too

 

[97TSIAWD]

9 dollars a gallon kind of alot ... but i guess it all depends on how long it lasts . how offen did you have to fill up the akly tank? Also what is uplon and where do i get that ? and do i need to run it if i am using a fuel pump instead of a water pump? I am going to try to use a fuel pump and fuel injectors. does anyone know of a recommend size injector to use . I am running two extra injectors for this ... i figure i will start small say 250cc... and go bigger if needed.

Well depends, you can find it cheaper sometimes. Also you can use rubbing alcohol either the 90 or 70 percent, but remember that has water. You can get uplon at any hardware or even parts store, that is not very expensive a few bucks for a quart. You have to put the uplon in to keep the pump lubricated, so it doesn't become corroded. Now, I don't use too much alcohol. Over all of driving the car 3-4 months in the summer I probably use 2-3 gallons of it. Remember your going to use more the more you boost, but just driving around the ocassional boost the alky will probably last a few weeks. It also depends how much your injecting at one time. I sometimes turn it off if I don't want to use it up.

 

[trick engine]

Have any of you tryed methanol/alcohol that you can buy at the drag strip . will it be the same as the stuff at home depot or better... not sure of price but i can not see it being anymore then 9 bucks a gallon....

 

[97TSIAWD]

Have any of you tryed methanol/alcohol that you can buy at the drag strip . will it be the same as the stuff at home depot or better... not sure of price but i can not see it being anymore then 9 bucks a gallon....

Actually I just posted this up on my tech article. The methanol that you can buy at the drag strip or race fuel supplier who carries vp fuels is powerful stuff. About 124 octane, but the best part is the price $2.00-5.00 dollars compared to the denaturd at home depot which runs around $7.00-9.00. Also, the problem is the pump. Methanol is very corrosive, Steve the builder of my smc kit indicated that the new external pump kits are able to handle it no problem, but the original was designed for only denatured. However, he indicated that if you were to add 1oz/1gal of Klotz fuel lubricant the pump will be okay.

 

[Bohrn]

couple of things to be careful of with methanol tho.

1.) health risks, its linked to some nasty things. Look it up, I forget all of it, but its bad. If you have to use some very good PPE.

2.) it burns easily and it burns with an invisible flame. You can't see the fire, but you see its effects.

 

[97TSIAWD]

couple of things to be careful of with methanol tho.

1.) health risks, its linked to some nasty things. Look it up, I forget all of it, but its bad. If you have to use some very good PPE.

2.) it burns easily and it burns with an invisible flame. You can't see the fire, but you see its effects.

Please post up the information on the effects linked to health if you are going to post a statement. It's not that I don't believe you but I thought it to be safer, although still harmful like other fuel type substances. Methanol though is usually mixed with some sort of dye so that it burns in color and is noticeable.

 

[Bohrn]

We had a discussion on this very thing just in the last couple of day in our local DSM club. One of our members is an engineer and pointed out some of the health risks.

It will be ok if you handle it proplery, I just wanted to make sure you know what might happen if you get it on your skin. Its not like gas.

 

[97TSIAWD]

We had a discussion on this very thing just in the last couple of day in our local DSM club. One of our members is an engineer and pointed out some of the health risks.

It will be ok if you handle it proplery, I just wanted to make sure you know what might happen if you get it on your skin. Its not like gas.

Oh of course, I probably have never gotten the denatured on me either, be safe use a funnel and pour from a light weight can. Becareful of splashes, if you go slowly you should never get any on you at all, however we know it can still happen. But there are different kinds of methanol and I think the type you mean may be wood methanol which is very toxic, racing methanol you see people splashed with sometimes at races, so I'm not sure if it is as toxic as you can readily buy it at racing fuel depots without major safety equipment or warnings.

 

[trick engine]

I also heard that methanol is very corrosive and gels up if not used up quickly... not sure if there is any truth to this ? if this is the case is it the same for denatured alky? I am also thinking of just running 116 race fuel and injecting that instead of methanol. But i do not think that it will cool the air as good but i would think it would cool just as good as water would, and there would be less risks with 116. anyone ever tried 116 like this ?

 

[97TSIAWD]

I also heard that methanol is very corrosive and gels up if not used up quickly... not sure if there is any truth to this ? if this is the case is it the same for denatured alky? I am also thinking of just running 116 race fuel and injecting that instead of methanol. But i do not think that it will cool the air as good but i would think it would cool just as good as water would, and there would be less risks with 116. anyone ever tried 116 like this ?

I believe that info has pointed that denatured alcohol cools better then water (methanol would probably be best, and is cheaper). I use denatured with 110 leaded now and love it, I imagine it would do the same for 116. Also, not sure about gelling up, I've had some denatured around for a few years without any problems, and down the street from me a guy owns a funny car and buys methanol by the 55 gal drum and stores his for long periods of time including winter without problems. It is corrosive to metal and so forth why I hinted that the Klotz lube would be needed to protect the pump from serious damage. I found that 110 leaded with the alcohol is all that is needed really, what turbo are you running? Also on the subject of gelling, on the Buick boards many buy 5 gallons and don't use in one season so they safe it for the next year, which is not using it very quickly, again it could be another form of methanol, not sure.

 

[trick engine]

I believe that info has pointed that denatured alcohol cools better then water (methanol would probably be best, and is cheaper). I use denatured with 110 leaded now and love it, I imagine it would do the same for 116. Also, not sure about gelling up, I've had some denatured around for a few years without any problems, and down the street from me a guy owns a funny car and buys methanol by the 55 gal drum and stores his for long periods of time including winter without problems. It is corrosive to metal and so forth why I hinted that the Klotz lube would be needed to protect the pump from serious damage. I found that 110 leaded with the alcohol is all that is needed really, what turbo are you running? Also on the subject of gelling, on the Buick boards many buy 5 gallons and don't use in one season so they safe it for the next year, which is not using it very quickly, again it could be another form of methanol, not sure.

Do you run 110 and denatured in a secondary tank ...... and pump gas in regular tank or 110 in the regular tank? not sure exactly what you meant?

I am running a turbonetics T66 ball bearing turbo looking to run 25 psi on the street if possable ....what i meant in my last post was i am thinking about runing 93 octane in the regular tank and 116 secondary without a intercooler for now just to do some testing on intake air temps with different secondary fuels/water etc . I was going to use methanol but it seems like there are alot of drawbacks to using it seeing that i will be using a fuel pump and fuel injectors.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Do you run 110 and denatured in a secondary tank ...... and pump gas in regular tank or 110 in the regular tank? not sure exactly what you meant?

I am running a turbonetics T66 ball bearing turbo looking to run 25 psi on the street if possable ....what i meant in my last post was i am thinking about runing 93 octane in the regular tank and 116 secondary without a intercooler for now just to do some testing on intake air temps with different secondary fuels/water etc . I was going to use methanol but it seems like there are alot of drawbacks to using it seeing that i will be using a fuel pump and fuel injectors.

Well I'm injecting the alcohol, and running 110 leaded in my tank at the track. Listen an alcohol kit may be just what your looking for to run that on the street. With methanol it would very possible. You may have to go with a bigger nozzle, but many GN guys are running up to 25-26 pounds of boost on bigger turbos. Running two sperate tanks seems a bit extreme especially with the added weight. Go to www.smcenterprises.com and email Stever to see what he would recomend, I think he has a kit that would allow you to run that boost on the street without a complex setup of two tanks.

 

[Jehu]

Hmm..many questions here that could have been answered with a quick search.

1. Some characteristics of Methanol...
http://www.advancedenergyresearch.com/hydrogen-economy.htm

Namely that methanol is QUICKLY absorbed through the skin, where it, unlike ethanol, doesn't get broken down by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase. It instead decomposes into formaldehyde and formic acid. This is why methanol is more toxic than ethanol. Seriously, make sure you at least take a quick glance at the MSDS before handling any chemicals.

2. AFAIK, the octane rating of methanol is ~98, using the R+M/2 method.

3. Methanol does not cool "better" than water. Water's latent heat of vaporization is almost TWICE that of methanol. Methanol DOES evaporate more rapidly, thus giving the impression of a greater localized temperature drop, but water WILL absorb almost twice as much heat.

4. Methanol is methanol. It could be pure or impure, or misnamed, but strictly speaking, it's CH3OH.

5. Methanol does not "gel". It'll evaporate away, but it won't gel, not at room temp or for that matter above -98 C.

 

[97TSIAWD]

So your information includes methanol used in Sprint cars, race methanol including nitromethane have a different chemical makeup and equation? Because how do they run it in Fuel cells that are metal or fuel pumps if it is so corrosive (fuel lubrication will help this problem, as I pointed out)? It is harmful no doubt but I've never spilled any denatured on myself, and I imagine if I spilled methanol I wouldn't die from it, unless I fell in a whole pool of it. I don't think something so dangerous would be readily available at local racing fuel distributors if it was going to kill you with one little drop, so I think that info is being a little slippery, it probably takes a lot of exposure to kill. Ahh nevermind it says if enough is ingested, so don't drink it, that is simple enough (did not say absorbtion through the skin will cause harm at all, also several other sites say 7.8mg a day of ingesting is fine). Also the site you provided is a research article against a hydrogen economy, so the information is biased. Also I've read that Methanol is similar to 110 octane, at least in characteristic.


Number one on this list is questionable, how do you run it in a car, plastic fuel cell, that's fine, what about pump? My injection kit is a plastic tank, as most are and with Klutz lube it won't hurt the pump. Also, although you state and it is known that water dissipates heat better, have you ever messured this? If you spray enough methanol which the injection kit offers, more so then a water kit, the effects are greater (plus you have octane unlike water, less chance of detonation). I would also be weary of too much water casuing hydralock.

If you are trying to lead people away from methanol please include the benefits or at least the fact that a lot of the Buick community is using methanol, if it was as dangerous as you are leading us to believe, it wouldn't be used by so many people. (And they prefer any alcohol over water injection (and now methanol over denatured), what reason? 15 years of developement is leading them away from water, there must be some reason, because it is better perhaps?)

To be fair I will say using gloves when pouring or mixing is probably safe if you think it will absorb quickly, so I will at least say to be careful and take precautions, consult material safety data sheet if you need to or ask the distributor of the fuel on the safest handling methods.

1. Methanol is acidic and corrodes metal. That includes fuel tanks, fuel lines, fuel injectors and carburetors.


2. Methanol passes easily through the skin and into the blood, where methanol acts as a poison. The intermediate step is blindness and nerve damage, and if sufficient amount is ingested, death occurs. The body's metabolism converts methanol into formaldehyde, which kills ("preserves") the cells.


3. When spilled, methanol is a liquid that pools on the ground. If methanol catches fire, the flame is invisible. If the flame is breathed, the nose, throat, and lung tissues are burned. It is so difficult to fight a methanol fire that the National Fire Protection Association puts out maximum effort to prevent methanol being adopted as a common fuel.

 

[coolingmist]

Number one on this list is questionable, how do you run it in a car, plastic fuel cell, that's fine, what about pump? My injection kit is a plastic tank, as most are and with Klutz lube it won't hurt the pump. Also, although you state and it is known that water dissipates heat better, have you ever messured this? If you spray enough methanol which the injection kit offers, more so then a water kit, the effects are greater (plus you have octane unlike water, less chance of detonation). I would also be weary of too much water casuing hydralock.

There is alot of mis-information about water/alcohol injection. It is a fact that water is better at preventing detonation than alcohol. Running 100 pct methanol in an alcohol injection kit is superior to running pump gas and prevents detonation better than pump gas. Methanol is rated at 118 octain.

Running 100 pct water is superior than methanol for preventing detonation. Its not only the latent evaporation of the water, but its the fact that methanol is a fuel and fuel burns. This leads to heat in the engine. Water doesn't burn it cools.

About hydrolock, there is almost no way you are going to hydrolock an engine. sure in theory its possible but I have never, ever heard of anyone doing this. If your kit comes with a high quality checkvalve or a solenoid such as our kits you will have 0 chance of hydrolock. The only way I can see it happening is if you have it wired wrong and have the injector going directly into the engine and you empty the tank into the engine.

A good water/methanol injection kit will inject water while under stress (either boost or vacuum) and then close the valve when your car is at idle or not boosting. Under these circumstances it would not be possible to hydrolock a car.

3 years ago I installed our kit on our Rx7. I had a problem with a ground connection and it pressed against the hood of the car activating the relay. This cause my 1 gallon tank of water to inject into the engine during the 30 minute drive home. after it emptied I noticed a bit of hesitation and slugishness. Not even close to hydrolock.

We recommend a mix of 50/50 for those that want to use alcohol, but you can use 100 pct if you wish.

 

[97TSIAWD]

There is alot of mis-information about water/alcohol injection. It is a fact that water is better at preventing detonation than alcohol. Running 100 pct methanol in an alcohol injection kit is superior to running pump gas and prevents detonation better than pump gas. Methanol is rated at 118 octain.

Running 100 pct water is superior than methanol for preventing detonation. Its not only the latent evaporation of the water, but its the fact that methanol is a fuel and fuel burns. This leads to heat in the engine. Water doesn't burn it cools.

About hydrolock, there is almost no way you are going to hydrolock an engine. sure in theory its possible but I have never, ever heard of anyone doing this. If your kit comes with a high quality checkvalve or a solenoid such as our kits you will have 0 chance of hydrolock. The only way I can see it happening is if you have it wired wrong and have the injector going directly into the engine and you empty the tank into the engine.

A good water/methanol injection kit will inject water while under stress (either boost or vacuum) and then close the valve when your car is at idle or not boosting. Under these circumstances it would not be possible to hydrolock a car.

3 years ago I installed our kit on our Rx7. I had a problem with a ground connection and it pressed against the hood of the car activating the relay. This cause my 1 gallon tank of water to inject into the engine during the 30 minute drive home. after it emptied I noticed a bit of hesitation and slugishness. Not even close to hydrolock.

We recommend a mix of 50/50 for those that want to use alcohol, but you can use 100 pct if you wish.

For some reason, the Buick guys just swear against the water and go stright for the alky. I merely read what they are posting after years of research, I believe I have read one post of hydralock, but apparently it takes a lot to do so. But you are saying that straight methanol is going to be better, but because of the octane properties (compared to water, sure water will cool lessen detonation, but so with methanol with actually improving octane making more boost with no knock or detonation occuring, also cooling as well). I know it still cools a lot, but you keep saying water is better, and a one to one injection this is probably true but with some kits injecting more methanol then a water kit wouldn't the cooling get greater with the methanol since you are injecting more? Just a theory, I've have overly good success with the alcohol kit so that is what I am preaching, and you have great knowledge of the water kits so it is good to discuss it like this.

 

[Jehu]

So your information includes methanol used in Sprint cars, race methanol including nitromethane have a different chemical makeup and equation? Because how do they run it in Fuel cells that are metal or fuel pumps if it is so corrosive (fuel lubrication will help this problem, as I pointed out)?

Uhhh...nitromethane is CH3NO2. When was nitromethane ever methanol??? There are different materials you can use to contain methanol. SS for example. Additionally, a little water with methanol also greatly reduces the corrosiveness.

It is harmful no doubt but I've never spilled any denatured on myself, and I imagine if I spilled methanol I wouldn't die from it, unless I fell in a whole pool of it. I don't think something so dangerous would be readily available at local racing fuel distributors if it was going to kill you with one little drop, so I think that info is being a little slippery, it probably takes a lot of exposure to kill. Ahh nevermind it says if enough is ingested, so don't drink it, that is simple enough (did not say absorbtion through the skin will cause harm at all, also several other sites say 7.8mg a day of ingesting is fine). Also the site you provided is a research article against a hydrogen economy, so the information is biased. Also I've read that Methanol is similar to 110 octane, at least in characteristic.

Methanol is more toxic then other alcohols because it gets absorbed quickly through the skin. I'm not saying it'll kill you right away, but it is a chemical you want to minimize your exposure to, just like many other chemicals, eg drano, acetone etc.

As for Octane rating of methanol, as I said, average of research and motor octane, gives 99. Quite a few sources indicates this, like http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/auto/m/m.htm

Number one on this list is questionable, how do you run it in a car, plastic fuel cell, that's fine, what about pump? My injection kit is a plastic tank, as most are and with Klutz lube it won't hurt the pump.

Methanol is compatible with lots of plastics/rubber, like BunaN, Nitrile, Nylon. Insides of a very popular diaphragm pump used for water/alcohol injection are made of EPDM valves and Santoprene diaphragm, which, is surprise surprise, compatible with most alcohols.

Also, although you state and it is known that water dissipates heat better, have you ever messured this?

It's not about heat dissipation, but latent heat of vaporization. It's well established...do you need to measure the boiling point of water to know it boils at 100C at standard conditions?

If you spray enough methanol which the injection kit offers, more so then a water kit, the effects are greater (plus you have octane unlike water, less chance of detonation). I would also be weary of too much water casuing hydralock.

If you are trying to lead people away from methanol please include the benefits or at least the fact that a lot of the Buick community is using methanol, if it was as dangerous as you are leading us to believe, it wouldn't be used by so many people. (And they prefer any alcohol over water injection (and now methanol over denatured), what reason? 15 years of developement is leading them away from water, there must be some reason, because it is better perhaps?)

To be fair I will say using gloves when pouring or mixing is probably safe if you think it will absorb quickly, so I will at least say to be careful and take precautions, consult material safety data sheet if you need to or ask the distributor of the fuel on the safest handling methods.

I'm not trying to stop people from using methanol, heck, I'm going to be using a 25/75 water/methanol mix myself. But it doesn't hurt to make sure they know the dangers and to take precautions when handling it.

Look, you are using a whole bunch of anecdotal evidence, to argue what point, I don't even know. As coolingmist points out, methanol adds fuel, hence energy, and fights knock by lowering your AF ratio. For pure heat absorption though, no alcohol will beat water.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Uhhh...nitromethane is CH3NO2. When was nitromethane ever methanol??? There are different materials you can use to contain methanol. SS for example. Additionally, a little water with methanol also greatly reduces the corrosiveness.



Methanol is more toxic then other alcohols because it gets absorbed quickly through the skin. I'm not saying it'll kill you right away, but it is a chemical you want to minimize your exposure to, just like many other chemicals, eg drano, acetone etc.

As for Octane rating of methanol, as I said, average of research and motor octane, gives 99. Quite a few sources indicates this, like http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/auto/m/m.htm



Methanol is compatible with lots of plastics/rubber, like BunaN, Nitrile, Nylon. Insides of a very popular diaphragm pump used for water/alcohol injection are made of EPDM valves and Santoprene diaphragm, which, is surprise surprise, compatible with most alcohols.


It's not about heat dissipation, but latent heat of vaporization. It's well established...do you need to measure the boiling point of water to know it boils at 100C at standard conditions?



I'm not trying to stop people from using methanol, heck, I'm going to be using a 25/75 water/methanol mix myself. But it doesn't hurt to make sure they know the dangers and to take precautions when handling it.

Look, you are using a whole bunch of anecdotal evidence, to argue what point, I don't even know. As coolingmist points out, methanol adds fuel, hence energy, and fights knock by lowering your AF ratio. For pure heat absorption though, no alcohol will beat water.

Wow, someone took a philosophy course in college, anecdotal evidence . I'm not trying to fight you at all, this is a good discussion. My point about water was in injecting do the properties for vaporization remain the same if more methanol is injected then water (would it increase if you increase the ratio of methanol to water, considering we used two different systems, a water and a methanol kit and I increased my methanol)? Also, let's not bring up the arugement of Methanol octane, because it seems that it varies wherever you go. Your point about the methanol absorbtion is valid, just that your post made it seem more toxic then it really is.

Alcohol sprayed directly into the charged air stream has a substantial cooling effect and acts kind of like an inter-cooler. Alcohol’s cooling ability reduces detonation and allows higher boost levels to be run with low octane fuel. Cylinder temperatures can drop as much as 300 degrees. Alcohol injection may be added to your recipe at any point as it works well from a stocker to a full racer.

This is more then a significant amount, 300 degrees. Even if water can do better, adding octane as in methanol is in my books one of the best injection means available.

As I said mixed with Klotz fuel lubricant the wear on any metal parts associated with the injection process is nearly non-existant (pump, injector, lines and so forth).

There have also been cases of people running methanol injecting before a bov, without causing a fire.

The point I'm trying to argue, although not really trying to argue with you is, methanol or alky is adding fuel, lowering knock and detonation and still cools while the water is just cooling, to me that makes it a much better means (yes water reduces knock or detonation also, we can say perhaps that methanol does it more effectively). Also, your entire argument is anecdotal, as you have merely observed other scientific data (which although probably very accurate, anything found on the internet can be cause for worry, don't always believe what you read especially on the internet, although the information is more than likely correct) without providing any of your own, unless of course you are a scientist? I'm just asking that you not blatantly criticize my comments, although observations when for the most part I have run alcohol for two years and know first hand the effects and those are my real world observations. I have also had Buschur explain that his kit has powered his Evo to 400+ hp on pump gas, acting better then it does on 110 octane fuel. Please if you wish to further this debate pm me. As for the facts on methanol I think it has been well explained here, and since this thread is not about it I move to further dicuss it in another thread if it is needed. Sometimes I feel like giving up trying to show benefits of alky/methanol over water because people just don't run it to realize the difference (although not trying to convince them not to go with water). If you want search turbobuick.com for more information on why others go with it over water.

Only if you add boost. Spraying water does not create power. It allows higher cylinder pressures to be run and not detonate. Dropping the nozzle size creates a much finer mist, fine mist is needed for atomization to occur. And you dont try to get tooo aggressive with water.

This is where alcohol differs.. shooting straight alcohol not changing boost.. the motor will pickup RWHP cuase it burns. And one can run way coarser nozzles and really pump the liquid in.

Water allows additional boost, but not a lot. I would say 20 % more boost. Your knock sensor wont lie.

 

[Jehu]

I agree, this is definately starting to go off on a tangent, but bear with me here for one last post.
You criticize me for referencing information on the internet, yet you put down quotes that you've come across in some forum, mailing list etc . The methanol octance numbers I've found are from university/government/alternative fuel related sites, and usually from the electronic form of a published paper, not a typed in number on a company/enthusiasts homepage. IMO that's probably as trust worthy as you can get on the net.

Again, referencing PUBLISHED information is not anecdotal evidence. Word of mouth "yeah, this guy said methanol decreases cylinder temperatures by 300degC" IS, which, btw I don't believe. You don't WANT lower cylinder temperatures. For maximum power generation, you want cylinder temperatures as high as possible w/o detonation or preignition. A low temperature combustion event generally means you're running too rich.

I wasn't aware that I stated anything other than facts regarding methanol's toxicity. I did ask that you refer to the MSDS for handling instructions, and that would certainly state NOT to contact with bare skin.

Only if you add boost. Spraying water does not create power. It allows higher cylinder pressures to be run and not detonate. Dropping the nozzle size creates a much finer mist, fine mist is needed for atomization to occur. And you dont try to get tooo aggressive with water.

This is where alcohol differs.. shooting straight alcohol not changing boost.. the motor will pickup RWHP cuase it burns. And one can run way coarser nozzles and really pump the liquid in.

Sure, dropping nozzle sizes creates a finer mist, and you regain your flow by going with multiple nozzle setups. Remember, the injection point is usually prior to the TB. You want a really fine mist that will stay entrained in the airstream. Big droplets will drop out of suspension when the air flow makes sharp turns, and you will not get an even distribution across the cylinders.

Besides, I don't agree with the statement that adding alcohol automatically increases WHP. Let's look at this objectively. Alcohol obviously has an advantage to H2O in the sense that it adds fuel. Now, through dropping the charge air temperature and hence increasing the VE of the engine, H2O is superior. So any power gains from cooling will be in water's favor. Now, if you have a well tuned engine at the optimal A/F ratio, and you dump a bunch of fuel in via methanol injection, you're telling me you'll make more power? Why is everybody trying to lean things out to make more power? Again, I'm not arguing that methanol injection is not a good thing, but your quoted statements do not make sense.