Which way to go 2.0 or 2.3?

[damnslowtsi]

With his blower choice a 2g would be sufficient and would do the job more efficiently so to speak - spool faster, more low end grunt etc. That's what his agenda is. If he goes with a 65 then 1g is ok I 'd say. Still there would be some merits to a 2g but seeing that he rethought it later to 52 then a 2g head is a much more logical choice IMHO. With medium sized cams it would flow what a 52 can throw at it with relative ease.

 

[nightspeed87]

a quick irrelevant question but do 2g stock camshafts have less lift then stock 1g cams?
Like is there any difference in the camshafts? Because if the 1g cams are better like I heard from somewhere wouldnt using the 1g cams with the stroker benefit more ( as in using the completely 1g head )

 

[andymoraitis]

Any stock cam sucks on a stroker. I wouldn't pull a 2G cam to install a 1G cam for the minor amount of difference it provides and the amount of work it takes. Considering how much air the stroker can ingest, aftermarkets are a definite must have. Most stock cammed 2G 2.3's run upwards of 210-215 compression with an 8.8:1 C/R. Have shitloads of fun tuning that without Link or a custom chip.

Regarding the head issue, the 1G is better stock for stock but the 2G offers a more efficient design when ported. I'll stick with my 2G head.

 

[nightspeed87]

but it is true that the 2g cams are "weaker" than the 1g cams... ( couldnt think of a different word to use for that. )

 

[andymoraitis]

Yes, the 2G cam has less lift than the 1G variety but it's not that much of a difference. There are certain years of 1G cams that were pretty awful and I'm not sure if it was the 90 or 91 cams. The general concensus was that the 93-94 were the preferred ones to use.

 

[damnslowtsi]

You can't really say that 2G cams are weaker. Yes they have a bit less lift but they also have a bit more duration. I think they are just better suited to a 2g head/manifold. I 've heard people swapping a 2g cam for a 1g and not noticing any difference. I guess in this case you also need a fast datalogger A '90 turbo exhaust cam is smaller on 1Gs, the rest is the same deal for turbo cars.

 

[nightspeed87]

Reason I ask is because I got a rebuilt new head on my car and before I had dc cams ( i think thats what they were ) were they had the best intake/ exhaust cam from the best yrs of a 1g car... Well now the guy who rebuilt the head when rebuilding the engine for the 2nd time, made a mistake and put some 2g turbo cams in my head and its already back together now and Im not going to rip it apart for that... Thats why I ask.
His simple reply to his mistake is that later 1g and 2g cams are identical even though Ive heard different. So what can I expect with the 2g cams? For example, do they produce more overlap, more torque, less hp or torque, more midrange, less top end... what ?

 

[krummel21]

Andy do you recommend just getting the 2g head port and polished, or did you upgrade the valves and springs at all?

If I were to see if I had no signs of crankwalk and have 140,000 on my engine would it be safe to do the stroker upgrade in my engine?

Is it possible to get the revised thrust bearing installed on my engine during the rebuild or is the extra cost of getting the bearing and installing not offset the cost of just buying a 6-bolt?

This a great thread since this guy has the same goals for his engine I do, and am looking at getting a stroker now too on my next rebuild.

Thanks,
Krummel21

 

[damnslowtsi]

His simple reply to his mistake is that later 1g and 2g cams are identical even though Ive heard different. So what can I expect with the 2g cams? For example, do they produce more overlap, more torque, less hp or torque, more midrange, less top end... what ?[/QUOTE]

They are not identical. They do have a little more overlap due to duration but all in all you 'll be hard pressed to feel any difference. Do not tear it apart especially if you can't do it yourself and have to pay somebody. I 'd save for a set of real cams and then do it all at once.

 

[twinkiemobile]

Ok guys here's the estimated costs for parts:
2.0L Block - 200

Block components:
Pistons - 399
Rods - 360
Main Bearings - 33
Rod Bearings - 21
Main Studs - 59
Head Studs - 89

Cylinder Head:
Valves - Si 1mm O/S Valves
Springs/Retainers - 250 Manley Valves w/ Retainers
Locks - Manley - 90
Lifters - Revised 3g - 85
Rockers - Stock
Stem Seals - 40
Guides - 100
FP2 Cams - 429
Fidanza Adjustable Cam Gears - 209

Drivetrain:
SBR 4000 Clutch Kit: 789

Turbo + Fuel:
FP3065 - 1349
O2 Housing + Dump tube - 315
1000cc PTE Injectors - 300
DNP Manifold - 470
44mm Tial Gate - 360

OE Maintenance Parts: Approximately 600
Front Case
Water Pump
Timing Kit
Gasket Set

Misc:
Metal Head Gasket - ?

Estimated Machining costs: 1000


Total: Approximately 8000 dollars.. yikes..

Now take into consideration this does not include the crank yet. for approximately another 400 dollars i can get the stroker crank from SBR.
Don't let the figure above discourage you guys from building a stroker like me, i'm looking at an expensive 3000 dollar turbo setup + 1000 dollars for head parts as well.

let me know if you guys notice anything missing.

Lastly - Can someone look over the machining list i've come up with
Clean
Clean Threads
Bore/Hone
Line Hone Mains??
Deck (Head and Block)
Magnaflux
Polish Crank Shaft
Fit Main and Rod Bearings
Clearancing

thanks guys

 

[paper_clip_boy]

Well one thing on that list that your for sure not going to need is the O2 Dump. If your going to have you wastegate off the manifold, an O2 dump is pointless and is just costing you more in the long run. Get yourself a ported EVO III O2 or and Tubular O2 and call it a day.

If you are going to heed our warning about High revving past 7500rpm-8000rpm than you really dont need a lot of those component in that head.

I would suggest getting rid of the Manley spring, retainers and locks. Also 1mm O/S valves are not really going to help you unless you plan on breaking 8000rpm often. They do flow SLIGHTLY more but its not worth the extra 200 to spend on them. Mitsu valves with a good valve job is fine. Guides are up to you, Bronze will last longer as they canm stand more heat but the tock Iron Guides are also quite fine for this application. Also take a look at FFWD's cams, You send them you old cams and they regrind them for you. The DKS 272/272 is fine for that engine. I know a lot of people are skeptical on regrind cams, but the part that I look at is how many company's offer you a warranty on cams, FFWD warrants them for a full year, Cant go wrong there. Adjustable cam gears are nice but not necassary. If you want to spend 5+ hours on a dyno dialing them in then i suggest you buy them.

In my opinion, Just clean the head up nicely and get a good valve job and even look into getting your head Extrude Honed, as it will clean up minor imperfections in the head and is well worth the money if you are on budget and cant afford a full blow port job.

Also this one is coming from experience, Scrap that SBR clutch and spend the extra moola on the PTT Twin Disk Clutch. It literally is that good. Engagement is soooooo much smoother than a single disk heavy clutch and it is so much easier on your Drivetrain. Also it will last significantly longer than a single disk clutch. Ive driven a car with the proven ACT 2900 and then a different car with the PTT and the difference is night and day. The PTT will take about a week to get down pack but after that its smooth sailing.

I also noticed something significant missing from you list. ECU.

Two words, AEM EMS. It really is worth it. Find yourself a used one if your on a budget, and you will never go back. That capabilities of it are far beyond what DSMLink can provide, And to be honest its really not that hard to tune. Its the most user friendly StandAlone on the market. Convert to MAP, control you boost from in the car with the click of a mouse. Say you run into a guy on the street that is really messing with you, you can open your laptop, click you boost up like 4psi and the EMS will richen everything up so that you will run without issues. I dont think DSMlink can do that.

You also might want to look at upgrading your fuel system to SS braided lines from the tank to rail, -6an should be ok for you but if you going to want to break into the 450whp+ area, look into -8an.

I hope I've given you some good insight as to your project.
Best of luck

 

[drivemusicnow]

I have a couple differences in opinion with the above from paper clip boy.

1) AEM EMS is not easy to use, and for the money is not a good purchasing decision. If you have the money to spend on a standalone EMS, buy the Autronic. If not, DSMlink will be fine. For whatever reason the DSM crowd only sees AEM as the option for a standalone, when I personally think it is not even close to the best option. When a standalone's technical support comes in the form of a user based forum, you know you've made a bad decision.
2) I am not aware of any actual data, however it would seem that the oversized valves would in fact help in all RPM ranges. The stroker motor is air hungry, and this is something that would seem to help. Also, if you're using a very aggressive camshaft, I would recommend upgraded valve springs.
3) I have nothing against FFWD or the DKS 272s, however I think with this kind of motor, you'd be better off with the FP3, or FP4 cams. If you want to go a little cheaper route, the BC 280s would be a good choice. Especially with the FP4, or FP3x cams, the spings are needed just because of the crazy valve acceleration rates.

 

[twinkiemobile]

- The O2 housing and dump has to accompany the FP turbo system.
- I have DSMLink and i believe that for now it's sufficient for what i want to do, later on when i've really got down how to tweak the car maybe i'll upgrade.
- I thought that upgrading to larger sized valves would be a good idea as well, because more air is more air. but at the same time, i'm starting to believe that i should just sell my 1mm o/s valves and scrap building the head except for cams and gears. I'm looking forward to the new ffwd heads anyway.
as for the cams, i really don't know which is "best" for stroker motors, but i've seen a lot of success with FP2's and 272 grind cams, so i think i'll stick with those for now, maybe i can upgrade when the heads come out from ffwd.

 

[Spool'n Spyder]

As far as the cams and cam gears, I have done quite a bit of research. Personally, I am going to run Crower 64414's in my 2.4 which I heard is kinda like a 280. I read that I need to run a more aggressive cam in a 2.4.

I called Crower and they said install them straight up with no cam gears. They said that you can only gain a few hp out of the cam gears and its not worth the extra money.

 

[paper_clip_boy]

drivemusicnow, I do understand what you are saying, but have you read what this guy will be using his car for. Have you ever physically heard what the idle of the FP3 and FP4 cams are like, they are NOT street cams. Ya sure they are quite streetable, to a straightline racer but other than that they are not a good cam for what twinkie wants to do with his car.

Honestly, try being at a stoplight and not let the cop beside you give you the weirdest look ever running those cams. They even have a profound effect on how the car starts. Its much harder to start up the car with those cams.

 

[sunflashx]

Ok guys here's the estimated costs for parts:
Total: Approximately 8000 dollars.. yikes..

thanks guys

Yikes? Wait until you add up what you really spend once that's all done and on the car.

 

[twinkiemobile]

Yikes? Wait until you add up what you really spend once that's all done and on the car.

Yeah i figure it's going to be a lot more including things like oils, coolants, etc. etc. i'm seriously considering not doing anything to the head and just getting cams for now, until ffwd comes out with their new cylinder head system. that'll take out another grand. haha

 

[GVR4592]

drivemusicnow, I do understand what you are saying, but have you read what this guy will be using his car for. Have you ever physically heard what the idle of the FP3 and FP4 cams are like, they are NOT street cams. Ya sure they are quite streetable, to a straightline racer but other than that they are not a good cam for what twinkie wants to do with his car.

Honestly, try being at a stoplight and not let the cop beside you give you the weirdest look ever running those cams. They even have a profound effect on how the car starts. Its much harder to start up the car with those cams.

Then why is he going with a 3065? Starting the car with those cams is just like stock unless you installed them incorrectly. FP3 and FP4 cams in a stroker can idle like stock with a little tuning.

 

[GVR4592]

Yeah i figure it's going to be a lot more including things like oils, coolants, etc. etc. i'm seriously considering not doing anything to the head and just getting cams for now, until ffwd comes out with their new cylinder head system. that'll take out another grand. haha

Usually you just take your current estimate of the cost of the buildup and double it, it holds true about 99% of the time. There's a pretty good reason why FFWD isn't selling cylinder heads anymore, with a little research you'll figure it out. I'd try Mitch at Engintecs if you want a really nice cylinder head.

 

[GVR4592]

I have a couple differences in opinion with the above from paper clip boy.

1) AEM EMS is not easy to use, and for the money is not a good purchasing decision. If you have the money to spend on a standalone EMS, buy the Autronic. If not, DSMlink will be fine. For whatever reason the DSM crowd only sees AEM as the option for a standalone, when I personally think it is not even close to the best option. When a standalone's technical support comes in the form of a user based forum, you know you've made a bad decision.

I learned this the hard way, I've been looking into Autronic for about a year now. As soon as I finish building me engine and drivetrain, I'm selling the AEM and going with Autronic.

Just talking to a few Autronic dealers I've received more support for a product I don't even own, than I ever did with AEM.

 

[GVR4592]

Two words, AEM EMS. It really is worth it. Find yourself a used one if your on a budget, and you will never go back. That capabilities of it are far beyond what DSMLink can provide, And to be honest its really not that hard to tune. Its the most user friendly StandAlone on the market. Convert to MAP, control you boost from in the car with the click of a mouse. Say you run into a guy on the street that is really messing with you, you can open your laptop, click you boost up like 4psi and the EMS will richen everything up so that you will run without issues. I dont think DSMlink can do that.

Actually AEM has a feature called Hi/Lo boost switch. You wire a toggle switch to an input on the ems, set the desired boost level into the software, and just flip the switch. No need to play with the laptop. The downside is AEM is 99% hype, it appears to be user friendly, but it's really not. The reason it's so popular is the low price and the list of features, most of which are either BS or not available with the DSM box.

 

[biglady112]

The AMS shop Evo uses a 2.0l. The customer cars use strokers. Oh yea. I vote for 2.0L.

Steven

 

[drivemusicnow]

Which AMS shop evo are you talking about?

The 8 second drag Evo that is track only and is a 2.0 liter
Or the Road course only Evo that is also track only... and a 2.3 liter

When talking about a daily driver car, neither example seems to hold much water.

 

[biglady112]

Sorry. I assumed we were talking about the silver drag car. 2.0L still gets my vote.

Steven

 

[damnslowtsi]

Yeah i figure it's going to be a lot more including things like oils, coolants, etc. etc. i'm seriously considering not doing anything to the head and just getting cams for now, until ffwd comes out with their new cylinder head system. that'll take out another grand. haha

Good call as fas as the head work. For FP2/272 flavor and your rev. limit you don't really need much in the head. Springs are the only thing I 'd consider. Either aftermarket or just shimming stockers.

Oversized valves are pointless without proper port/bowl work. It is like that famous example with a hose. Either you close it with your thumb or with a palm of your hand it doesn't matter. It will still flow the same when you let go.

For cams I 'd look into FP's x-series. Since you don't plan on revving to the moon they would be a good choice. They will fatten your midrange, exactly what you want. 2x won't be any lumpier than a regular two and the driveability shouldn't suffer. With those you do need good springs though. Some more fuel for thought