Welding V/C or Center diff opinions, and welded diff handling...

[Black_Bullet]

My main points of interest in doing this-
for one I believe my current V/C is worn out due to a tow incident I had couple months back. ( Long story )
Regardless of that, I have the old stock center diff setup in this car and I will likely in the future make enough power to start breaking them, and I dont want to break mines and screw anything else up in the tranny with it nor do I want to dish out the cash for a 4 spyder center diff.

From what Ive read cons of welded diff cars-
lose in handling, rear tire skipping, drop in gas milegage, "said" additional drivetrain stress, and low speed turning difficulty.

But none of those things exactly scare me away from doing it either.

For the benefits-
Improved launching, and overall straight line traction improvement,
and hopefully wont have to worry about blowing out stock center diff at 400+ hp with hardcore launching.

I know/knew of 2 dsmer's with welded diffs, one who didnt mind it, another who loved it, plus Drew at Darkside performance has owned welded diff dsm's for several years and he finds them to be more predictable? He claims handling is at least more consistent then stock diff car's.
Its likely just a biased matter of personal opinion...

Though, with all said, truely my main point of concern is trying to take stress off the stock center diff spyder gears, though Im not welding the diff itself, Im thinking welding the V/C still significantly reduces chances of breaking stock 2 spyder, but now Im hearing it will make it worse for the 2spyder and that welding the center diff is better to do
( just harder/takes longer/ more expensive.)

 

[samnumba1]

Hmm all I remember is Drew giving me a ride in his blue 1g with welded diff and his launch sent us into a sideways 4 wheel peel untill it caught traction, which is when the thing took off like a fighter jet!!!!!! If you want hardcore launches weld it! Tell Drew, Sam sold you the idea!!!

 

[Black_Bullet]

Hmm all I remember is Drew giving me a ride in his blue 1g with welded diff and his launch sent us into a sideways 4 wheel peel untill it caught traction, which is when the thing took off like a fighter jet!!!!!! If you want hardcore launches weld it! Tell Drew, Sam sold you the idea!!!

Wow.
I recall he used to launch that blue car at 7k though, but somehow he was pulling 1.5 60s. .

 

[TurboDSM90]

The past month Ive been thinking about having my friend Drew at Darkside performance ( local dsm shop )
do a welded vicous coupler for me, for only 100bucks.
Easy for him to do, would only take a hour w/o dropping tranny and theoretically it gives the exact same effects as welding center diff.

It does give the same effects as a welded CD, BUT the stress on an unwelded center diff (the stock 2 spider) is brutal. You are putting more stress on them while doing a sharp turn, or a hard launch. This is just asking, no begging for trouble. I could see it lasting on a 4 spider, but why spend 450 on a 4 spider, when its cheaper to weld it. Then why run a welded VC to have the same effect of a welded CD? Anywho, I would not do just a welded VC on the stock CD.

My main points of interest in doing this-
for one I believe my current V/C is worn out due to a tow incident I had couple months back. ( Long story )

Perfect! It's worn and it will serve its purpose just fine as Tcase output shaft retainer.

Regardless of that, I have the old stock center diff setup in this car and I will likely in the future make enough power to start breaking them, and I dont want to break mines and screw anything else up in the tranny with it nor do I want to dish out the cash for a 4 spyder center diff.

Again, if you weld the VC alone, the CD will grenade faster than with a stock VC in good working order. If you plan on making power, just weld it. Its very simple, even with a mig. Just make sure it is aligned damn near perfect.

From what Ive read cons of welded diff cars-
lose in handling, rear tire skipping, drop in gas milegage, "said" additional drivetrain stress, and low speed turning difficulty.

I do the 1/4 mile thing, and never really try to get sideways, take turns hard, etc. I could see the additional stress/friction coming from tight turns, under or over inflated tires on different sides, or opposite corners. Just be ready to lose some turning radius. Don't lock your steering wheel all the way if and when you decide to weld the diff or VC.

But none of those things exactly scare me away from doing it either.

Good.

For the benefits-
Improved launching, and overall straight line traction improvement,
and hopefully wont have to worry about blowing out stock center diff at 400+ hp with hardcore launching.

As long as its welded right, you will never have a problem.

I know/knew of 2 dsmer's with welded diffs, one who didnt mind it, another who loved it, plus Drew at Darkside performance has owned welded diff dsm's for several years and he finds them to be more predictable? He claims handling is at least more consistent then stock diff car's.
Its likely just a biased matter of personal opinion...

I love mine as far as function goes. When you start spinning all 4 tires in 1st and 2nd, you will take all the traction you can get, as long as nothing breaks.

Though, with all said, truely my main point of interest is trying to take stress off the stock center diff spyder gears, though Im not welding the diff itself, Im thinking welding the V/C still significantly reduces chances of breaking stock 2 spyder?

Weld the center diff. With a basic mechanical understanding you can pull it out yourself, while its in car. It will just take you a little longer. Set aside a weekend, a drip pan, tons of rags, brake cleaner, nitrile gloves, rtv silicone, and a decent set of tools.

Good luck.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ok thanks alot man, wish I could give you rep.
Thats why I made a thread first to get other opinions, as one of my friends said welding the V/C would take all the stress off of the 2 spyder diff and that was my main concern.

So how long does it take to weld the center diff in car?
I really wouldnt want that transmission pulled out again.

What will be the next weak link in the tranny after one has a welded center diff?
Ive always heard/seen myself that the 3rd and 4th gears are weak.
Or would a welded center diff tranny put up with the 400-450awhp & ft/lbs torque Im looking to make with no troubles?

 

[TurboDSM90]

Ok thanks alot man, wish I could give you rep.
Thats why I made a thread first to get other opinions, as one of my friends said welding the V/C would take all the stress off of the 2 spyder diff and that was my main concern.

So how long does it take to weld the center diff in car?
I really wouldnt want that transmission pulled out again.

Would take at least a few hours. Set aside a weekend just incase anything "happens". Drain the oil, pull out the diff, clean it, wire wheel the inside of it, heat it up with a propane torch and weld it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Im sure I know the answer to this but want all possible questions covered, does it affect shifting, gear durability any?

 

[JayRolla]

Well they guys I know with welded center diffs are stripping the gears off of third gear but its not from the diff, but since the diff is welded the next weak link is the 3rd gear.

The drivablity is horrible at low speeds and turning sharp. Gets kind of annoying. My main reason against it is Jack as Jacktransmissions.com said the drivetrain parts get double the stress when cruising. He said it wears out the drivetrain parts at double the rate.

 

[TurboDSM90]

Well they guys I know with welded center diffs are stripping the gears off of third gear but its not from the diff, but since the diff is welded the next weak link is the 3rd gear.

The drivablity is horrible at low speeds and turning sharp. Gets kind of annoying. My main reason against it is Jack as Jacktransmissions.com said the drivetrain parts get double the stress when cruising. He said it wears out the drivetrain parts at double the rate.

Is this on his website? Got a link to that post if its not? I HIGHLY doubt it will wear out drivetrain parts at a "double" rate. Wear them out when put under stress, yes. By stress I mean the typical hard driving, launching, high speeds for extended periods of time. Funny everyone I know (including me) are killing 4th gears. 3rd gear doing out is a bit tougher to do. When I stripped 4th, I was using amsoil tranny fluid which is very thin. I went back to thicker fluids, and now with a bit more power these gears seem to take the abuse.

 

[JayRolla]

Is this on his website? Got a link to that post if its not? I HIGHLY doubt it will wear out drivetrain parts at a "double" rate. Wear them out when put under stress, yes. By stress I mean the typical hard driving, launching, high speeds for extended periods of time. Funny everyone I know (including me) are killing 4th gears. 3rd gear doing out is a bit tougher to do. When I stripped 4th, I was using amsoil tranny fluid which is very thin. I went back to thicker fluids, and now with a bit more power these gears seem to take the abuse.

This is info he personally told me, we have known each other for about 8 years. Anyways he said it wears the drivetrain components down while crusing since no energy is being taken from the center diff. I think thats what he told me, this was awhile back when I almost went with a welded diff and he talked me into the 4 spider gear diff.

Found a link on his website that does state what Im talking about.

DSM Welded Center Differentials

 

[TurboDSM90]

"4-spider differentials are highly recommended for all DSM's up to 600 HP. A welded differential becomes more appealing with over 600, partially because 600 HP cars are rarely driven on the street." Sounds right.

 

[99gst_racer]

My main reason against it is Jack as Jacktransmissions.com said the drivetrain parts get double the stress when cruising. He said it wears out the drivetrain parts at double the rate.

I've never heard of this before. Not even when Jon at TRE was welding mine up for me, did he ever mention it causing a higher rate of stress for other drivetrain components. And truthfully - he probably would have mentioned it if it were true.

I'm not calling you out or anything, but I'd need to see proof or hear an explanation from a few other knowledgeable people before I ever even remotely believed that.


OP - I have a welded center and I can't even get my tires to chirp while turning sharp on pavement. I love my welded center. Well worth every bit of $50.

 

[jjgrizz73]

I've never heard of this before. Not even when Jon at TRE was welding mine up for me, did he ever mention it causing a higher rate of stress for other drivetrain components. And truthfully - he probably would have mentioned it if it were true.

I'm not calling you out or anything, but I'd need to see proof or hear an explanation from a few other knowledgeable people before I ever even remotely believed that.


OP - I have a welded center and I can't even get my tires to chirp while turning sharp on pavement. I love my welded center. Well worth every bit of $50.

Very true, and i second that I have tried to get it to hop and chirp turning sharp pulling into a parking spot, etc and never could it runs great. I also recommend it

 

[JayRolla]

Welded Center Differentials
We can weld center differentials here at Jacks Transmissions. We TIG weld them properly preheating all parts first, use an infrared thermometer to make sure we are not over heating the housings, and then let the assembly slowly cool.

Our welds are strong and we have NEVER had an issue with a welded center coming apart.

Problems using a welded center instead of an LSD/VC unit include wearing out tires, drive shaft, CV shafts, and engine mounts more quickly, and slipping or chirping of the tires when turning in tight areas.

The advantage is that you never have to worry about breaking spider gears again.

4-spider differentials are highly recommended for all DSM's up to 600 HP. A welded differential becomes more appealing with over 600, partially because 600 HP cars are rarely driven on the street.

This is straight from Jacks website. Not saying he is the most knowledgable coming to dsm trannys, but I would say he is in the top 3. Seems to be tires, driveshafts, cv shafts and engine mounts that take the hit. Also I dont know if this issue would be that big of an issue. I was just throughing info I was told.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Some decent information from a old thread, post number 14 http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/193255-welded-center-diff-daily-driver.html

I've daily driven, autocrossed, and drag raced on my welded diff for over 5 years now with no problems.

Besides giving you a better launch, a welded diff will elimintae the thrust washers that inherently go bad and fubar the output shaft and x-fer case. I went through two of each before I decided to weld it and eliminate the problem. I think a 4 pinion diff still needs those thrust washers.

My tires don't skip. Why? Because I run sticky Azenis tires on the street and their grip is more than the torque required to differentiate the rear LSD, so the axles spin at different speeds like their supposed to. With my little street tires the inside tire would skip rather than differentiate the rear axles. This does not cause any more stress or wear on the axles or bearings.

For the money you can't beat it.

Rick - '91 GSX

You guys are claiming that your tires dont skip in this thread also, Im thinking that the tire skipping and hoping is only on guys with crap tires. With really sticky tires I think the welded diff effects would be less noticeable in terms of tire skipping or lose of handling.

This is straight from Jacks website. Not saying he is the most knowledgable coming to dsm trannys, but I would say he is in the top 3. Seems to be tires, driveshafts, cv shafts and engine mounts that take the hit. Also I dont know if this issue would be that big of an issue. I was just throughing info I was told.

I dont see how the welded diff will be causing more stress going in a straight line, especially while cruising.
It should essentially be no different than the open diff car at that point? The wear and tear you'd think would theoretically mainly come from hard sharp turning.
I dont care if the motor mounts have more stress, they are prothanes anyway, but I can picture the driveshaft carrier bearings failing sooner, and the tires wearing a little quicker, maybe the axles being under more stress?

My friend Kris used to have a 1g gsx w/ welded diff and he liked it because it locked power 50/50 and he could slide the back end out like a RWD. He liked that feeling so it worked for him. On the other hand, he ate two rear axles, most likely because of the bind. You can't just order one of those from raxles or discount auto or something- nobody has any cores. He lucked out and found an old friend at Mike's Drivelines who rebuilt them for cheap, but it was going to be expensive otherwise so that could be a little bit of a con if the rear axles do go out faster.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Is this on his website? Got a link to that post if its not? I HIGHLY doubt it will wear out drivetrain parts at a "double" rate. Wear them out when put under stress, yes. By stress I mean the typical hard driving, launching, high speeds for extended periods of time. Funny everyone I know (including me) are killing 4th gears. 3rd gear doing out is a bit tougher to do. When I stripped 4th, I was using amsoil tranny fluid which is very thin. I went back to thicker fluids, and now with a bit more power these gears seem to take the abuse.

Yea Im trying to avoid stripping gears etc, I plan on limiting my future max power to 400-450 with no desire to go any higher, which I think is on that fine point of safety for these stockish trannies, but I have read and been told to use thicker fluids, I talked to some local tranny guy who was against thin fluids and also others on this site were as 400awhp up all the drivetrain issues typically start to occur. I used to run straight syncromesh and was told thered be a good chance I could damage or eventually eat up a gear with it since it doesnt provide very good gear protection with hard racing.
Right now Im running Redline shockproof light weight, and I think it should keep my gears alive longer, despite it being a little notchier to shift.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea Im trying to avoid stripping gears etc, I plan on limiting my future max power to 400-450 with no desire to go any higher, which I think is on that fine point of safety for these stockish trannies, but I have read and been told to use thicker fluids, I talked to some local tranny guy who was against thin fluids and also others on this site were as 400awhp up all the drivetrain issues typically start to occur. I used to run straight syncromesh and was told thered be a good chance I could damage or eventually eat up a gear with it since it doesnt provide very good gear protection with hard racing.
Right now Im running Redline shockproof light weight, and I think it should keep my gears alive longer, despite it being a little notchier to shift.

Yea I use shockproof or oem mitsu fluid only. That syncromesh will eat up synchros also.

Black Bullet I say if your on a budget and cant afford the extra $400 for the 4 spider gear and you dont mind your car being that perfect DD than go for it. Shit I have just an maft/safc, 1200cc injectors, 255lph without FPR and was at 0* base timing for my DD and its fine when everyone says its only good for WOT.

Plus the 4 spider dont help traction when the welded diff does. Thats a real good feature.

 

[sbiggi]

I have a welded center. I think it blows for daily driving, at least compared to a open diff.

Cant make a uturn for shit.
The car hops/skips on tight turns (hate having to explain to a date why the car seems like a pos when its "normal")
Car understeers bad unless you are on it
When I drive it in the snow, you have to get use to the back end coming out in turns..... thats a bit scary the first couple times when you horse it a little and are turned to the lock trying to go straight down the road

I'd only go with a welded over a 4spider if you:
1) Only drag race
2) just cant afford it
3) too much power for a 4 spider to be reliable

I went with one because I couldnt afford the 4 spider

 

[JayRolla]

sbiggi knows his stuff. I agree with the 3 reasons he said. I know you cant afford it Black so its now up too you. Remember do it right the first time. I regret I bought the safc and maft instead of just buying dsmlink. But I will be getting V3 for christmas I hope.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I have a welded center. I think it blows for daily driving, at least compared to a open diff.

Cant make a uturn for shit.

Guess I will have to get used to this, or adapt my driving.

The car hops/skips on tight turns (hate having to explain to a date why the car seems like a pos when its "normal")

Most people who know me or go for a ride in my car think its just some beast ass car anyways, wouldnt make it seem anymore crazy/ or un normal than it already is.

BTW, what tires do you run? Read the part of my earlier post, and others posts in this thread were they are saying they actually CANT get the tires to skip or hop.
I run Falken Azenis RT 615s and these bitches are sticky, and they are the same tire referenced by the guy I quoted who said he doesnt skip his tires in turns.
Perhaps you should look into that.

Car understeers bad unless you are on it

Yea another thing Id have to get used to.
Good thing for me though is that I have a Suspension techniques rear sway bar.
This makes the car a little less prone to understeer, therefore it will counter some of the handling lose Id get from welded diff.

When I drive it in the snow, you have to get use to the back end coming out in turns..... thats a bit scary the first couple times when you horse it a little and are turned to the lock trying to go straight down the road

Good thing I dont have snow... Rain is a different story though, but I dont push this car hard into corners on the street anymore, not worth crashing or hurt anyone else.
I drive like a old lady most of the time to be honest.

BUT, with considering what I just said about the rear sway bar, I may have on power over steer like a bi***... On some back roads, or empty lots, sounds fun

I'd only go with a welded over a 4spider if you:
1) Only drag race
2) just cant afford it
3) too much power for a 4 spider to be reliable

I went with one because I couldnt afford the 4 spider

I definitly dont only drag race but I like to go every once in awhile.
I cant afford a 4 spider and I am trying to finish this car with least amount of money spent possible at this point. I am not trying to build the perfect car by any means, nor am I trying to be like the typical dsmer thats making a lot of power that always has some kind of drivetrain headache constantly forking out cash to keep a car running for a couple months out of a year just to race it a few times. If the welded diff is stronger and will prevent me from grenading a tranny from a broken center diff, then thats my route...
So thats why this is my stand point.

 

[Black_Bullet]

sbiggi knows his stuff. I agree with the 3 reasons he said. I know you cant afford it Black so its now up too you. Remember do it right the first time. I regret I bought the safc and maft instead of just buying dsmlink. But I will be getting V3 for christmas I hope.

Soon as you get V3 and cams your sending me a video of your car in action

 

[JayRolla]

Im actually getting a cheap cam from my work and a cheap window mount from ebay so I can make videos. Im hitting the dyno in two weeks I hope.

 

[sbiggi]

BTW, what tires do you run? Read the part of my earlier post, and others posts in this thread were they are saying they actually CANT get the tires to skip or hop.
I run Falken Azenis RT 615s and these bitches are sticky, and they are the same tire referenced by the guy I quoted who said he doesnt skip his tires in turns.
Perhaps you should look into that.

I drive mine year round in Colorado, so I'm running Continental ExtremeContact All Season tires. With slicks on the car, it doesnt skip the tires.

Yea another thing Id have to get used to.
Good thing for me though is that I have a Suspension techniques rear sway bar.
This makes the car a little less prone to understeer, therefore it will counter some of the handling lose Id get from welded diff.

I have a RMDSM rear swaybar and 450 lbs/in springs on all 4 corners. Its a pretty noticable difference in understeer.

I definitly dont only drag race but I like to go every once in awhile.
I cant afford a 4 spider and I am trying to finish this car with least amount of money spent possible at this point. I am not trying to build the perfect car by any means, nor am I trying to be like the typical dsmer thats making a lot of power that always has some kind of drivetrain headache constantly forking out cash to keep a car running for a couple months out of a year just to race it a few times. If the welded diff is stronger and will prevent me from grenading a tranny from a broken center diff, then thats my route...
So thats why this is my stand point.

I haven't broken a diff yet. I did strip third gear which damaged the center diff and I've stripped first gear. Still havent broken my 22spine transfercase or any axels... I'm sure thats gonna happen soon though.

-Seth

 

[Black_Bullet]

I have a few questions for you. For one since you drive your car yr around in Colorado, what kind of premature wear or tear or undue stress do you get on your drivetrain, tires etc with that welded CD?

Did you already have the rear sway bar when you welded the diff?
Now that you've gotten used to welded diff and learned how to drive with it properly, how do you feel your handling is in comparison to when it was open diff. Some people say its not that bad, and that its more consistent since the VC isnt playing around with your power bias thru the tires in a corner.

Yea sucks you broke that stuff, what power were you seeing when you broke 3rd gear?
And Ive never heard first hand of first gear breakage, though i know its happened in plenty of high powered cars. I take it you were in a launch?

 

[dontfeedphils]

I ran a TRE Center spool for about half a year in my DD and I hated it. It was horrible for driving slowly and even thinking about turning, it hopped all over the place and I'm pretty sure that it helped destroy my center shaft and transfer case from all the extra stress (stripped the center shaft and input gear of the transfer case.

I just got a new TRE stage 3 with a 4 spider center diff and I couldn't be happier that my car is normal again.