ECMlink Wacky ECMLink MAFComp - Log Attached

[thejollyrancher]

Hey guys,

After installing my wideband ages ago I didn't have much time to tune. But recently I got tired of the crappy mileage and running rich so I decided to fix my cruise and idle tune. I took a log and got some wacky results. My WBFactor and AirFlowPerRev are all out of wack. The problem is Ive been reading up on how to get these in check, but my MAFComp sliders wont do anything. Adjusting that table has no effect on my AFRs at all. Adjusting my injector deadtime has some effect but that's only temporary. If I adjust my deadtime I can have the car idling around 14.7 for a few min but it eventually just accounts for what Ive done and falls back to around 13.5 again.

Whats going on? Am I doing something wrong? Check out my log.

 

[bmxfelon420]

I had a friend describe a similar problem. If you have changed things in DirectAccess that have corresponding settings in the normal screens, changes to those wont have any effect. I had a friend who had the same issue with his fuel sliders. His car runs very lean on idle (e85) and maxing the fuel slider did nothing. If that isnt the case, i'm not sure. Perhaps someone with more DA tuning experience can chime in. I'm still pretty new to V3.

 

[thejollyrancher]

Interesting. I wonder if i messed with anything in direct access I shouldn't have. What would correspond with MAFComp?

 

[talontd92tsi]

DA tables are 100% stock for your car in this log. Why are you messing with the fuel sliders anyway? Your timing sliders are through the roof as well.

These sliders make changes to the commanded timing, not what timing values you are looking for... you are adding 12 degrees at 7000 rpm which would command 30 degrees of timing (the DA table is requesting 18 degrees, and you are adding 12 on top)! put those back to stock before you blow this thing to kingdom come.

I think you simply have the wrong idea about what you are supposed to be doing here.

Set everything back to stock. (fuel, MAFcomp and timing sliders)

Set your global and deadtime for your injectors. (you have 660's listed in the profile, and I am assuming stock 37.5psi of fuel pressure)

You should set global at ~32.4 via the link calculator if this is accurate, dead time should start around 180 usecs.

Start the car, start a log. let it idle..... for ~60 seconds... Run the MAFcompadj tool. This will start to get you close. Keep tweaking your mafcomp until your AirflowPerRev is ~.25. Being on a 3" gm maf, you may have to make some pretty drastic adjustments.

 

[thejollyrancher]

Open Loop Tuning (WOT) Fuel & Timing:
1. Choose a desired fuel/octane level.
2. Choose a desired boost level that you want to run. Dial your boost in at a lower boost setting to begin with, depending on turbo size, probably no more than 1 bar.
(An alternate to the previous method is to start at your target boost level with conservative settings, i.e. low timing and rich mixture. Make a few pulls before tuning to ensure safe operation before continuing with this method).
3. Choose a proper A/F Ratio to shoot for in the entire RPM range – Some common A/F ratios are 10:1, 10.5:1, 11:1, 11.3:1, 11.5:1. The proper A/F ratio will depend on your specific vehicle and its setup. While there are too many variables to list when determining a proper A/FR, some of the common ones are fuel octane, intercooler efficiency, and turbo size. In most cases, on a properly running DSM, on pump gas with an efficient intercooler, an 11:1 A/FR is a common and safe ratio to make good power with.
4. Ensure that all values you want to log are set. (The following are recommended).
a. Wideband
b. Boost sensor
c. EGT
5. After warming the car properly (warm car, drive at cruise for 10 min., idle for 5 min.), data log a 3rd gear pull from 2000 RPM to redline. Keep a very close eye on Knock, A/FR, and EGT's for anything that might spell trouble.
• If you see ANY Knock, increase fuel sliders. If A/FR is already richer than your target, reduce timing by a degree instead of increasing fuel.
• If no Knock is present and your A/FR is leaner than your target, increase fuel to desired level. If A/FR is richer than your target, and you're at your target boost PSI, decrease fuel.
6. Allow car to cool down between runs. (Number of runs between cool down periods will be dependant on intercooler efficiency and boost level, among other things. Not doing this will result in inconsistent results).
7. Continue logging runs in this manner until you reach your target A/FR with no Knock.
8. Once you reach your target A/FR with no knock, raise boost by 5 PSI or less. Repeat steps 5 through 7 until you reach your target boost PSI.
9. Once you've reached your target boost PSI and desired A/FR with no knock, increase timing by one degree and log another 3rd gear pull from 2000 RPM to redline. Again, keep a close eye on Knock, A/FR, and EGT's.
10. Repeat step 8 until you see one degree of knock retard. At that point, reduce timing by one degree. (Aim for high teens to low 20s for timing advance. Higher is better.)
11. Finally, do a full run from 1st through 4th gear, watching Knock, A/FR, EGT's, and boost. Watch knock especially closely. Ensure you run the car very hard. If you see any Knock, you may need to reduce timing. If you see that your A/FR's are off, you may need to adjust your fuel.

Im going by this guide, specifically the bolded area. Should I not be adjusting the timing through those sliders? Ill set everything to stock and back at this today, I thought I had a grasp of what I was doing. If Im not to adjust the timing sliders here then how do I adjust timing? Im seeing no knock and a decent AFR throughout a pull which is why I figured what I was doing was working .

You should set global at ~32.4 via the link calculator if this is accurate, dead time should start around 180 usecs.

I referenced a chart on the ECMLink Site which said I should set deatime to 210 and global to ~31.[DOUBLEPOST=1413314189][/DOUBLEPOST]Also Im messing with the fuel sliders because of the guide as well. It was working out pretty well and I had an AFR of ~11 throughout a pull. Is that not the proper way to tune fuel either?

 

[talontd92tsi]

You really want to be using the direct access tables to tune your fueling and timing. The sliders make a global adjustment for all load areas in that rpm range.

Once you get your maf calibrated properly, your AFREstimate will match your wideband, and if you want to target a different afr, change the necessary cells in DA.

I'm not sure where you got that guide from, but it surely looks to be dated information. You get a MUCH more solid tune using the DA tables.

I cant think of ANY way you would be running a 16g on 30 degrees of timing without a butt-f*** of knock (unless you are on race fuel)

Edit: -31 and 210 is appropriate for FIC 650's. Your profile stated 660's, hense why I assumed they were not FIC650's.

Your deadtime is currently dialed in at 400 usecs. Not that it is a bad thing, but your configuration just seems off to me.

 

[thejollyrancher]

You really want to be using the direct access tables to tune your fueling and timing. The sliders make a global adjustment for all load areas in that rpm range.

Once you get your maf calibrated properly, your AFREstimate will match your wideband, and if you want to target a different afr, change the necessary cells in DA.

I'm not sure where you got that guide from, but it surely looks to be dated information. You get a MUCH more solid tune using the DA tables.

I cant think of ANY way you would be running a 16g on 30 degrees of timing without a butt-f*** of knock (unless you are on race fuel)

Edit: -31 and 210 is appropriate for FIC 650's. Your profile stated 660's, hense why I assumed they were not FIC650's.

Your deadtime is currently dialed in at 400 usecs. Not that it is a bad thing, but your configuration just seems off to me.

Okay makes sense. I should set the tables first and use the sliders as secondary adjustment if need be? Am I understanding this right?

Im running the settings I posted. Are you sure about the 30 degrees of timing? I was under the impression that the timing I was running was the timing sliders alone (12 degrees) and I was getting no knock. If youre right about the 30 degrees Im not sure how I could be getting no knock (under 1 degree) throughout my pull.

 

[talontd92tsi]

The biggest thing you need to do is calibrate your maf compensation. Getting the maf calibrated is the most important thing you need to worry about right now.

Yes, I am certain this is what is going on with the timing sliders... Let me elaborate:

at 3,000 RPM you have the timing slider @ 14*

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In the DA table (using the track datalog button), the ECU is commanding 38* for that load cell.

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Flipping back over to the log at the exact same moment. Actual ignition timing is 51.1* (AHHH)

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38+14=52.....


Do you have a log of a WOT pull?! If so please share... I wouldn't suggest trying that again though!

 

[thejollyrancher]

The biggest thing you need to do is calibrate your maf compensation. Getting the maf calibrated is the most important thing you need to worry about right now.

Yes, I am certain this is what is going on with the timing sliders... Let me elaborate:

at 3,000 RPM you have the timing slider @ 14*

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

In the DA table (using the track datalog button), the ECU is commanding 38* for that load cell.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Flipping back over to the log at the exact same moment. Actual ignition timing is 51.1* (AHHH)

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38+14=52.....


Do you have a log of a WOT pull?! If so please share... I wouldn't suggest trying that again though!

Youre completely right. Gosh Im glad you pointed that out. I went out today and fixed everything up, and wow is it ever easier to tune. I have a rough tune since the laptop died half way but I got it most of the way there. The AFRs are a little rough still and need tweeking and I loaded an EVO map as a base. Out of curiosity I started to pull timing via the sliders again and Im getting the same values as before. Im at some crazy timing numbers with very little knock. Im running 16-17 psi with 93 octane. But this thread is getting a little off topic so Ill make a new thread and link it below, Id appreciate if you could check it out. Ill post a log of my pull.

For now, I have it mostly set and I went through and idle/cruise tuned it again and Im still crusing at 13.5. WB factor was roughly at 0 and I adjusted my injector settings as you said. Still no change. When I adjust the injector settings I can make the car idle at 14.7 for like 10 seconds then it adjusts itself back to 13.5. How do I run leaner?

EDIT: Here's the other thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/lots-of-timing-no-knock-log-attached.486239/

 

[talontd92tsi]

I will need a log to see what's up with the AFR's being off at idle. Is it link reporting the 13.5, or is it your actual wideband display?

I looked at that log in the other thread. Holy crap.... its reading 38 degrees of timing @ 7000 rpm.

Are you sure your base timing is correct at 5*BTDC?

 

[thejollyrancher]

Ill post another long with some idle time. With WBFactor at 0, they both read ~13.5.

When I was tuning the other day I made it a lot more conservative than it was. I can feel the car is significantly less powerful now than it was before. I wonder whats happening. With my old timing sometimes reading 51 like you pointed out, the car would HAUL. And yes, before I started tuning I corrected base timing to 5*

 

[talontd92tsi]

I am sure it did haul, more timing = more power (generally), but timing that high is straight dangerous.

if WBfactor = 0 and you are reading 13.5AFR, that means that you are targeting 13.5afr.

 

[thejollyrancher]

How is it dangerous? Does it create dangerous temperatures? Im wondering if a good way to keep timing in check would be to keep a closer eye on my EGTs

Also Ill post a log later today so we both have something to go off of rather than my memory.

 

[talontd92tsi]

Yes, increased ignition timing creates higher EGT's and leads to engine destroying detonation because the cylinder is too hot and the gasoline ignites before it is supposed to.

 

[thejollyrancher]

Ya and that occurs in the form of knock which im not seeing. I get that people with E85 can control knock to the point that cylinder pressure alone is the limiting factor if not reaching MBT, but I dont see how my timing is so far advanced with pump gas. I should be seeing knock. But hey Im not, and Ive been running an insane timing map for the past year with a lot of WOT pulls and no determent. I think Ill just pull timing, keep an eye on EGTs and keep going till I start seeing depreciated gains like everyone is suggesting. As unnerving as that sounds, Ive been doing it for a long time and my motor is perfectly healthy still.

 

[talontd92tsi]

If I were you I would give all your timing components/CAS/etc/etc/etc a GOOD once over. There is NO way you can really be running almost 40* of timing and not knocking on pump gas.

Most guys on e85 dont get past 22-25 degrees of advance, and when they do, it sometimes results in the head melting.

 

[thejollyrancher]

What should I look over exactly? So far I have looked over my base timing, and adjusted it, and Im not skipped a tooth.

 

[talontd92tsi]

Did you ground the timing connector in link while adjusting your base timing?

Did you check your crank sprocket on the timing belt to make sure its not off there either?

 

[thejollyrancher]

Im pretty sure I grouded the timing connector. Ill recheck it today. And yes I checked the lower timing marks too

 

[jim95redgsx]

What should I look over exactly? So far I have looked over my base timing, and adjusted it, and Im not skipped a tooth.

First, make sure that the rubber in your harmonic balancer hasn't deteriorated and let the timing notch slip to the wrong position. Probably, the easiest way to do this is to remove the #1 spark plug and insert a piece of dowel or a pencil until it hits the piston. Rotate the engine (by hand, with a 1/2" ratchet in the front crankshaft bolt) until the piston is at it's highest point (measure it). Make sure that the notch on the front pulley lines up with the T on the timing belt cover. If this is off, it will throw off your base ignition timing adjustment (with a timing light).

With the engine still at TDC. remove the top timing belt cover and take a look at your cam timing marks (it doesn't matter if the cam dowel pins are straight up or straight down for this test). Mark the exact centers of your cam gear bolts. Run a straightedge between these 2 marks. Try to look at this straight on, not at an angle. Don't let parallax throw you off. The 2 center timing marks should line up with each AND with the top of the straightedge. If the timing marks appear to line up but are above or below the top of the straightedge (1/8'-3/16") it means at least one cam is 1 tooth off.

One tooth off on the intake cam will throw off your logged timing by 15 degrees.

Jim

 

[thejollyrancher]

First, make sure that the rubber in your harmonic balancer hasn't deteriorated and let the timing notch slip to the wrong position. Probably, the easiest way to do this is to remove the #1 spark plug and insert a piece of dowel or a pencil until it hits the piston. Rotate the engine (by hand, with a 1/2" ratchet in the front crankshaft bolt) until the piston is at it's highest point (measure it). Make sure that the notch on the front pulley lines up with the T on the timing belt cover. If this is off, it will throw off your base ignition timing adjustment (with a timing light).

With the engine still at TDC. remove the top timing belt cover and take a look at your cam timing marks (it doesn't matter if the cam dowel pins are straight up or straight down for this test). Mark the exact centers of your cam gear bolts. Run a straightedge between these 2 marks. Try to look at this straight on, not at an angle. Don't let parallax throw you off. The 2 center timing marks should line up with each AND with the top of the straightedge. If the timing marks appear to line up but are above or below the top of the straightedge (1/8'-3/16") it means at least one cam is 1 tooth off.

One tooth off on the intake cam will throw off your logged timing by 15 degrees.

Jim

Done and done. Checked timing marks, they line up. I also checked my base timing which was a little off but I set that back to 5 Degrees. Ill post pictures from my phone to verify with you guys.

EDIT: Here's the pics

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[talontd92tsi]

You can't set timing on a DSM with an adjustable timing light. They don't read properly on a waste spark ignition system. You need to set your timing with a non-adjustable timing light!

 

[thejollyrancher]

You can't set timing on a DSM with an adjustable timing light. They don't read properly on a waste spark ignition system. You need to set your timing with a non-adjustable timing light!

So I went back at it today and redid the timing without the adjustable light. It wasnt too off but it was a little. Im at 5* now. I didnt get an idle log today but I retuned the car and boy am I surprised. I tuned using the DA Tables only (didnt touch the sliders) and I started to see knock a LOT earlier. I am running much lower timing now, and getting much less power before I knock. But I cant wrap my head around it. When I advance timing using only the sliders I can give the car so much more timing without knocking as much and get much more power. I emailed Tom about this at ECMLink to see if he can give me some sort of explanation

 

[talontd92tsi]

The reason you are getting much less timing before you knock is that you are seeing the actual timing numbers now. They were grossly inflated before.

 

[thejollyrancher]

Im fairly certain i Was pulling more timing before. The cars a lot slower.