Vacuum Pumps

[MNGSX]

Suck in a good way

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http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=17200

They have many advantages including ring seal and dramatically reduced windage losses.

Only negatives are when a high vacuum is used splash fed areas get less oil.. With forced pin oiling.. Oil squirters check, Good rods check, it is'nt a problem. Engines with worn or lessor oil systems may have oil pressure drops. A properly built 4g with no balance shafts and a new (or good) case and gears should be just fine.

The power put into the pump is MUCH MORE than made up for when combined with low tension rings.


And no you dont need a dry sump to run one..

It just draws a strong vacuum in the crankcase an dumps all the vapor and crud into a catch can.

It really can take care of alot of potential problems at once and make a good amount of power across the board as the primary benefit.

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I'll post more later because I need some sleep.. Anyone with real info and experience feel free to post it in my absence.

 

[Defiant]

Only negatives are when a high vacuum is used splash fed areas get less oil..

I'm not sure I go along with that..... but how much is still splash-lubricated anyway? I'd wonder if you might get more splashing with fewer air molecules in the way. Even with a wiper, you'd be getting plenty of bleed-off above it from the rod bearings.

 

[blue1]

There was an exhaust vacuum system around which i thought would possible work really well in the top of a surge system tank! has anyone heard of the Bill millions or the edelbrock Vacupans. they were suppose to stop "ring flutter" to give a lot better seal in the bores due to less pressure in the crackcase. This way it is done freely with no extra drives required its all done by the exhaust which has been a proven benefit. (TURBOCHARGING) is another free horsepower gain and that works.

 

[GRNDSM]

There is another alternative: run an electric vacuum pump. In the early 80’s a few GM cars had such poor idle vacuum, that factory added a vacuum pump to run their power brakes. I am now hearing that people are using those pumps for this purpose.

I always wanted to hook one of them up at the dyno and do simple before and after comparison. Should be pretty easy to do, I just have to come prepared (one of my friends has one of those pumps in his garage) and plug it into the PCV system.

I know that mechanical parts usually can provide better capacity (just take a look at electric superchargers), but this Moroso part is intended for larger crank case volume of a V8 motor, who knows, the electric pump might be all that our little 4 banger needs .

 

[blue1]

Possibly better to hook it straight on the breather pipe since thats its purpose!

 

[GRNDSM]

Possibly better to hook it straight on the breather pipe since thats its purpose!

Huh? Half of PCV system IS the breather pipe... That is what I am talking about doing.

 

[MNGSX]

The forced pin oiler came about due to concerns of a lack of oil due to splash.

Alot of the negatives I have found simply don't apply to our engines. Since circle track, car craft, hot rod and the like are the only places I can find information..

Electric pumps can work but in order to achieve the full benefiets it has to be a quite large pump. The type of vaccum pump used to compensate for a big cam on a V8 is'nt enough.

They make a 3 vane and a 4 vane pump.. You can run a 3 if you want to.. There is also a pro-mod model for huge engines.. Honestly i think the 4 vane improved model is just fine.

To actually be reliable and produce the right amount of vacuum that kind of pump is the only thing that will do it..

 

[MNGSX]

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html
Best info so far.

Covers electric and modded oe MFG pumps ETC... Basically only a couple professionally modified OE pumps can make enough vaccum and the vast majority of electrics are too small..

What is the highest vacuum you should run?
Our opinion is around 15" with a wet sump oiling system, over that and I understand the oil mist is reduced to the point where you can lose lubrication to the wrist pins and cylinder walls. I think 15" is fine in a drag race application because the engine is at that RPM for such a short period of time. We highly recommend installing a vacuum relief valve that mounts to your valve cover and can be preset between 12" and 20" of vacuum.

Pin oiling is done via the oil ring and a passage to the pin.. With squirters blasting the bore and pistons ass I don't think we have a problem.

These will do the job at DSM shopper prices. $199 for the sportsman.

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/vacuum-pumps.html

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[lambertvr4]

In 2001 the Honda(s) they tried it on would suck quite a bit of oil out of the engine at high RPMs. I believe the pulley ratio was not correct for the high revving 4-cylinders. I don't know if this has been worked out since then or not. Jeff Hill did have one on his car at the Shootout in 2002. I don't remember if he had similar issues. I asked, but don't remember the answer.

Big block v8's have shown 40+HP on the engine dyno with a pump compared to without it. I've never measured crankcase pressure at WOT under boost. That would be interesting.

 

[MNGSX]

Everybody I talk to who has done it recomends it. Brian at wiseco.. The guy who will be making my pulls on his superflow...

I think the small "sportsman" pump should do it.

The relief valve should help.. See that.. Like a MBC but a MVC manual vacuum controller.... I'd still look closely at pully size but spinning the pump a bit quicker (within reason) will help get vaccum sooner w/o too much up top..

With our boosted cylinder pressures plus low tension rings it will be over 40hp gains... Any time boost is involved and the friction of ring tension goes down the gains are more.

 

[greycar]

I run a electric one so no drag on the engine. Makes roughly 4-5 lbs of vac to keep your crankcase and rings happy. You can find these off a certain GM car/truck. but I don't know which one. Be a man and weld some damn fittings on you valve cover. AN lines are way cooler than crappy rubbers hoses. Way cooler "A"

 

[Defiant]

I run a electric one so no drag on the engine.

No free lunch. The drag's just been moved to the alternator. You can gain a slight cheat in time at best, but the energy's still gotta come out of the gas.

 

[GRNDSM]

No free lunch. The drag's just been moved to the alternator. You can gain a slight cheat in time at best, but the energy's still gotta come out of the gas.

In this case, you DO get a bit of a free lunch! You will get most of that extra energy from the battery!

Leon

 

[Tevenor]

Good discussion. Let's keep the ellipses to a minimum shall we? One "." is enough.

 

[lambertvr4]

I run a electric one so no drag on the engine. Makes roughly 4-5 lbs of vac to keep your crankcase and rings happy. You can find these off a certain GM car/truck. but I don't know which one. Be a man and weld some damn fittings on you valve cover. AN lines are way cooler than crappy rubbers hoses. Way cooler "A"

Have you ever dyno'ed with and without the pump for comparisson?

What about exhaust scavenging? I've never heard of a comparisson between that and a pump.

 

[MNGSX]

You cant run the exhaust powered vaccum pump with a turbo or even a muffler.


It was in one of my links..

Where it all began, at least in the NHRA Sportsman ranks, was with the introduction of mufflers to the racing class. Once the cars started running mufflers traditional pan evacuation systems (pan-evacs) no longer worked properly.

Racers started using vacuum pumps because air pressure in the pan started blowing oil out the gaskets and oil was leaking all over the place. That's when GZ Motorsports got involved.

Our first goal was to provide a pump to evacuate the pan and stop the leaks...the horsepower gains were simply a nice byproduct of that.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/0304_381/index1.html

This dyno test gave us a chance to really test the function of a Moroso vacuum pump for crankcase evacuation. The system is a racing air pump driven by a belt from the crank; the pump draws about 10 inches of peak vacuum through the crankcase and spits any oil fog that it picks up into a vented puke tank. By inducing a vacuum in the crankcase, which would otherwise have some positive pressure, it helps the compression rings seat against the ring lands on the pistons rather than warble in the grooves. Ring-to-piston sealing is as important as ring-to-wall. The resulting improvement in combustion-pressure retention proved to be worth 25-30 hp on this small-block; see the graph to note that the improvement is consistent throughout the curve.

As an experiment, we disconnected the vacuum line from the valve cover, but left the belt on the pump. In this configuration, it was revealed that the pump itself drew about 6-9 hp. Hence the beauty of the new electric pumps. Finally, note the oil-pressure curve at the bottom of the power graph. As the vacuum pump drew 10 inches of vacuum from the crankcase, it also dropped the oil pressure by 10-15 psi. No big deal if you know what to expect.

 

[MNGSX]

In this case, you DO get a bit of a free lunch! You will get most of that extra energy from the battery!

Leon

You can get a delayed lunch. Alternator Charge after the drag run.. I don't think it will have really drained the battery and started charging during a fast run.

With road racing or continuous use -The alternator is on the car already and even if pumping forces cost the same at the crank it is simpler to install..

I'm still looking for electric pumps large enough to pull the full 15" of vacuum...

 

[dynatos]

as far as a 'free lunch', it's being more efficient. Just like a supercharger.. Sure it takes hp to run the thing, but the gains are better.

 

[MNGSX]

as far as a 'free lunch', it's being more efficient. Just like a supercharger.. Sure it takes hp to run the thing, but the gains are better.

I don't know if I'd trust an electric on the street or road racing.. For the same reason as the dowfalls of electric water pumps.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

You cant run the exhaust powered vaccum pump with a turbo or even a muffler.


It was in one of my links..

That doesn't really tell me that much. I was running an exh. vac. setup last season on my silver car (w/ full exh. and muffler). I did alot of experimenting in the spring w/ the vac. pipe in the down pipe and got a design to actually pull some vac. at idle. Unfortunately, I was sucking all of the oil out of my engine just driving down the road because I had tried (unsucessfully) making my own baffles to put the AN vent lines in the spark plug valley of the valve cover. Mainly did this for hood clearance. Anyways, I had enough gremlins at first so I pitched the whole deal til' later. But, later never came because God is angry with me and threw a dear at my car with a mid-100mph pitch.

We used to run this same setup on my dad's sand rail and picked up some hp. The problem was that when the discs were on the Supertrapps there was to much backpressure and the check valves kept wrecking. I didn't have this problem with my 3" system even at full length. Mine will now be side exit so I'm especially exempt. I hope to get some actual numbers from an in-car gage this spring and could then be of much more value to this conversation. Until then, I think this way is still feasible.

Andy

 

[MNGSX]

I guess post turbine housing there is less pressure so it could be made to work..

I have seen pumps on alot more engines. I think they can pull more vaccum more reliably.

 

[greycar]

Oh its all about free lunch considering the car gets a full charge off of my Duramax inbetween rounds. If you consider what a 15amp draw eclectric pump puts on your alternator its peanuts to a belt driven one. Even so you can wire it to only come on at say 80% throttle or on a switch before you race. You are only going to need a vacuum pump with high revs and high boost/no2 so if you are running a 16g with 20psi buy something else for the $$$.

I have never done a dyno comparison on my car, but I know of a NA big block chevy that makes mid 900hp and he got 22hp to the crank on a engine dyno.

Quiz..... What is the main purpose of running a vacuum pump??????

 

[thegreatms]

I remember hearing that a mod on dsmtalk advocated using the A/C compressor to draw a vacumm on the block. (Obviously the rest of the AC system was removed)

 

[MNGSX]

Not so.

If you build the engine with the pump in mind you can use much thinner rings and an low tension oil control ring..

On lower compression ratio non forced induction engines they gain about 15hp with standard rings. On a high compression ratio engine with a low friction/tension ring pack its 30hp or more.

The higher the cylinder pressure and the greater the risk for flutter the more the gains will be. I honestly think any 2.3/2.4 is better off with one. More stroke = more ring flutter.

Looking at my high rpm, high compression ratio, high boost, std stroke, long rod alcohol motor it makes a BIG difference. Leakage with 30psi on top of 11.5:1 or so is drastically different without the pump as opposed to with it.

 

[VRC Racing]

Where are you mounting the pump? Got any pictures? I'm running out of ideas for hanging the pump and picking up the drive point.

-Russ