Upgrade from s16 to evo3?

[fwdeclipse]

I recently got screwed by a member on this board and I thought I was getting an evo3 16g. Well I got a s16g. I have had an evo3 before and it seemed to romp alot better ecspecially over 22psi. I am just wondering if it would be dumb to sell this and try and get an evo3 or would it not be worth the hassle. I know the butt dyno seems to feel a difference. I have not logged the s16g but on a cold day i logged 38lb/min with the evo3. I am going to be switching to e85 over the winter and want to get as far as I can on a 16g. Any input is appreciated.

 

[architechnik]

Which brand is that s16g? The only ones I have come across were intended for crossover from NT to a low psi system, which is a HUGE difference from the E3.
If this is the case, sell that thing to someone looking to fill that platform and try to get your hands on the E3.

 

[fwdeclipse]

No its an mhi s16g.

 

[420a-t]

I noticed a huge difference between the two, and my track times did too. With the s16g i was able to get a 13.8 and i steped it up to the e316g and a little different tuning and got a 12.3 (meth injection was a mod as well)

 

[architechnik]

I don't think that's much of a comparison for benchmarking with the addition of the meth injection. There are too many variables to consider if you are trying to match one setup without injection to another without.
The amount of tuning and capability of the turbo pressure and flow to match the avoidance of knock with meth injection is tremendous.

 

[420a-t]

True, I just thought I'd put in my .02

 

[keltalon]

True, I just thought I'd put in my .02

seem more like you put in 10 dollars

 

[NATAS]

A lot of people aren't aware that the s16g is really not much more potent than a 14b. Obviously it flows more, but that's because of the 7cm housing and a slightly more efficient dual fin compressor wheel. The fact of the matter is that the compressor wheel of an s16g and the compressor wheel of a 14b both have the exact same diameter. Of course they both have the TD05H turbine wheel like all the 16g's do, so they really are similar. That's why you're feeling it fall on its face at 20+psi.

Now the E316G still may be a TD05H turbo, but the compressor wheel is notably larger, even to the naked eye it's bigger than a b16g wheel and basically dwarfs an s16g or 14b compressor wheel. I'd put the e316g compressor wheel a lot closer to an 18g (seriously within 1-2mm) or even the venerable 20G. If you're going to be seeing a constant boost pressure of over 20psi you may as well step up to an e316g, but seriously for higher boost levels no matter how you slice it any 16g is too small IMO.

 

[Steve93Talon]

The fact of the matter is that the compressor wheel of an s16g and the compressor wheel of a 14b both have the exact same diameter.

Where do you people get this misinformation??

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm#c

TD05H-14B 14B 1.695 2.285

TD05H-16G "small" 16G small 1.830 2.365

 

[pboglio]

I recently got screwed by a member on this board and I thought I was getting an evo3 16g. Well I got a s16g. I have had an evo3 before and it seemed to romp alot better ecspecially over 22psi. I am just wondering if it would be dumb to sell this and try and get an evo3 or would it not be worth the hassle. I know the butt dyno seems to feel a difference. I have not logged the s16g but on a cold day i logged 38lb/min with the evo3. I am going to be switching to e85 over the winter and want to get as far as I can on a 16g. Any input is appreciated.

You could get 35-36 lb/min on the s16g on a normal day, maybe 37 lb/min on a cold day.
I loved my small 16g with a 10* clip, man the top end was nice, but then again I'm not coming off of an EVO3 16g either.

You answered your own question though, your not happy with the top end so just sell it and buy the turbo "you" want, not what somebody just handed to you in a screwed up deal.

 

[dsm-onster]

Where do you people get this misinformation??

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm#c

TD05H-14B 14B 1.695 2.285

TD05H-16G "small" 16G small 1.830 2.365

Thank you for getting in there and straightening that out.

The small 16g inducer diameter is twice as close to an evo3 16g (1.902") than a 14b. The inducer is a clear indicator of potential flow.

I've tuned a 14b w/ a 7cm^2 housing and then swapped to an small 16g. . . I was utterly shocked by the difference.

I've jumped from a small 16g to a td05h 18g and noticed more up top only when I turned the boost up (above that 22 psi threshold). If you want much more hp than what 22 psi w/ a small 16g can yield, then yes you'll want to upgrade. However, below that number you'll likely yield the same results w/ ANY unclipped tdo5h 7cm^2 turbo.

Cheap options:
1. Cam upgrade: more flow at lower boost. Give your small 16g compressor wheel a fighting chance.
2. Clipping: more flow at lower boost. A "safe" clip had done well with the td05h turbine for years.
3. Be happy w/ 36 or so lbs/min. If you're not logging this number, you've not pushed it hard enough. This is about 20hp less than your evo3 16g. Is that a big deal to you?

 

[JusMX141]

A lot of people aren't aware that the s16g is really not much more potent than a 14b. Obviously it flows more, but that's because of the 7cm housing and a slightly more efficient dual fin compressor wheel. The fact of the matter is that the compressor wheel of an s16g and the compressor wheel of a 14b both have the exact same diameter. Of course they both have the TD05H turbine wheel like all the 16g's do, so they really are similar. That's why you're feeling it fall on its face at 20+psi.

14B = 405cfm
Small 16G = 505cfm
Big 16G/EvoIII 16G = 550cfm

When you compare the numbers, it seems that a Big 16G isn't much more potent than a Small 16G instead of what you have said above.

I've serviced a TON of Small 16G's in my years of rebuilding turbos....at least as many as I have Big/EvoIII 16G's, if not more. There are more out there than you think.

I believe they're a popular choice because they're an excellent upgrade for someone who wants more power than a 14B has to offer, but doesn't really want to fool with fuel control and tuning to get there. Depending on your intercooler's efficiency, you can run 16 or 17psi on a Small 16G with your stock injectors and ECU. You won't make as much power as you would if you tuned, but maybe that's how some guys want it to be....maybe their emission laws don't allow ECU mods or something. Who knows?

The Small 16G compressor wheel's small OD allows it to spin at a faster RPM than a Big/EvoIII 16G, and the fact that the compressor is smaller and lighter it is also able to start building boost at a lower RPM.

 

[FonZ454]

The Small 16G compressor wheel's small OD allows it to spin at a faster RPM than a Big/EvoIII 16G, and the fact that the compressor is smaller and lighter it is also able to start building boost at a lower RPM.

I heard that the evo 3's compressor is made out of a diferent material and is lighter than the big or small 16's compressor wheel.

I'd say just stick with the small 16g. Thier cool. Thier old school I've logged ~37lb min on my big16... I think evo'3 will flow up to 40.

 

[NATAS]

Ok well that's the last time I eyeball a compressor wheel. Sorry.

 

[JusMX141]

I heard that the evo 3's compressor is made out of a diferent material and is lighter than the big or small 16's compressor wheel.

I know for a fact that the EvoIII's compressor has thinner blades which make it lighter than a plain Big 16G compressor, but as far as being made of a different material I believe that's faux.

As far as the EvoIII weighing less than a Small 16G compressor, I find that a little hard to believe. I have new Small 16G and Big 16G compressors at my shop, so the next time I have an EvoIII apart I'll take all three wheels to work and weigh them on the paint scale which can measure down to thousandths of grams.

 

[JusMX141]

Ok well that's the last time I eyeball a compressor wheel. Sorry.

You cannot "eyeball" compressor wheels and have an accurate understanding of their size or how efficiently they work. Eyeballs lie.

Your eyeball was also wrong in telling you that "the E316G still may be a TD05H turbo, but the compressor wheel is notably larger, even to the naked eye it's bigger than a b16g wheel." They're the SAME SIZE. They both have the exact same efficiency- the only difference is that the EvoIII 16G's compressor is lighter in an attempt to make it a quicker-spooling turbo, and the EvoIII's exhaust housing is also lighter, thinner, and has a 2.5" outlet to mate to the EvoIII o2 housing, instead of a Big 16G's 2" outlet. An EvoIII 16G also has a slightly stiffer spring in the wastegate actuator than a standard Big 16G does.

I don't want to sound ignornant; I just don't want false information to be spread about these turbochargers.

 

[fwdeclipse]

Wow this was a little late. I went ahead and bought a 20g that is being rebuilt right now by jsmux. This is good info for anyone in the future searching for this same topic.

 

[JusMX141]

Your 20G is in good hands, fwdeclipse. I should take pics of how the project is going and email them to you.

 

[fwdeclipse]

Yeah man do that for sure I would like to see how its coming along.

 

[dsm-onster]

You cannot "eyeball" compressor wheels and have an accurate understanding of their size or how efficiently they work. Eyeballs lie.

Your eyeball was also wrong in telling you that "the E316G still may be a TD05H turbo, but the compressor wheel is notably larger, even to the naked eye it's bigger than a b16g wheel." They're the SAME SIZE. They both have the exact same efficiency- the only difference is that the EvoIII 16G's compressor is lighter in an attempt to make it a quicker-spooling turbo, and the EvoIII's exhaust housing is also lighter, thinner, and has a 2.5" outlet to mate to the EvoIII o2 housing, instead of a Big 16G's 2" outlet. An EvoIII 16G also has a slightly stiffer spring in the wastegate actuator than a standard Big 16G does.

I don't want to sound ignornant; I just don't want false information to be spread about these turbochargers.

The big 16g wheel does NOT have the same inducer diameter as an evo3 16g. The evo3 16g compressor flows more air, consequently. They do have the same exducer diameter.

The evo3 16g turbine is made from Inconel, a steel alloy. Other td05h turbines are not.

You're right from what I've seen of the evo3 16g compressor. It has thinner compressor blades.

 

[JusMX141]

My apologies for not wording that a little better.

I DO, in fact, know that the EvoIII's compressor has a larger inducer than a Big 16G....by .010". That's essentially the thickness of two sheets of notebook paper.

My initial post was in response to the fellow who claimed his naked eye saw that the EvoIII Compressor was bigger than the Big 16G's compressor, which is horsesh!t. Even superman couldn't visibly tell the difference by looking at their inducer/exducer diameter.

On a similar note, I wonder if all the EvoIII knockoffs that are swarming eBay have their turbines made from Inconel, too? If they did, I highly doubt as many would snap in half.

 

[dsm-onster]

My apologies for not wording that a little better.

I DO, in fact, know that the EvoIII's compressor has a larger inducer than a Big 16G....by .010". That's essentially the thickness of two sheets of notebook paper.

My initial post was in response to the fellow who claimed his naked eye saw that the EvoIII Compressor was bigger than the Big 16G's compressor, which is horsesh!t. Even superman couldn't visibly tell the difference by looking at their inducer/exducer diameter.

On a similar note, I wonder if all the EvoIII knockoffs that are swarming eBay have their turbines made from Inconel, too? If they did, I highly doubt as many would snap in half.

No big deal at all. I know you're a competent and knowledgeable contributor. I just want to insure noone is confused when looking for turbo specs.

I don't know about the ebay turbos personally. I DO know Inconel is hard as he!! I have seen an evo3 16g turbine put back together, unbalanced and ran. It ate blades and seals. The shaft bent slightly, but did not break.

Then again, I've never had a problem completely wringing out my small 16g of which the turbine is not made of Inconel.

fwdeclipse, this is a td5h 20g, right? You should have excellent spool and a bit more topend .