Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[TurboAnything]

You guys this is not a new idea. Its been done many times before i talked to a guy that had one on a GVR4 and from like 4-5 years ago there was a HKS typeR-and just recently a 350z. Every one of them had the supercharger mounted in the intake manifold and the turbo plumbed into the supercharger inlet and sometimes they have a air-water intercooler under the roots blower in the intake manifold. That is the best way to route it no one way valves or swithing valves

 

[LaN-]

You guys this is not a new idea. Its been done many times before i talked to a guy that had one on a GVR4 and from like 4-5 years ago there was a HKS typeR-and just recently a 350z. Every one of them had the supercharger mounted in the intake manifold and the turbo plumbed into the supercharger inlet and sometimes they have a air-water intercooler under the roots blower in the intake manifold. That is the best way to route it no one way valves or swithing valves

That would be the ideal way to set this up. But you tell me how to have the turbo go into the supercharger and not out flow it? If you shut the S/C off you need someway to bypass around it.

Trust me i'm open for ideas but right now i think the 2 pipes with 1 valve is a fairly easy setup.

 

[turbo addict]

You guys this is not a new idea. Its been done many times before i talked to a guy that had one on a GVR4 and from like 4-5 years ago there was a HKS typeR-and just recently a 350z. Every one of them had the supercharger mounted in the intake manifold and the turbo plumbed into the supercharger inlet and sometimes they have a air-water intercooler under the roots blower in the intake manifold. That is the best way to route it no one way valves or swithing valves

I know it's not new. HKS had a kit for the 89 mr2 factory supercharged version that came with a HKS garrett full T4 turbo and was twin charged way back then.

 

[turbo addict]

Ray what does your boost curve look like (how much boost at what rpm)? And is there any way to look at your intake air temps at the intake manifold or at least after the supercharger and turbo both?

 

[turbo addict]

That would be the ideal way to set this up. But you tell me how to have the turbo go into the supercharger and not out flow it? If you shut the S/C off you need someway to bypass around it.

Trust me i'm open for ideas but right now i think the 2 pipes with 1 valve is a fairly easy setup.

All you need to do is have a turbo that can flow more than the supercharger. For Ray's set up he is looking for instant boost for rallying that is why his turbo and supercharger are so close in size. Also I think that he has to pull all that through a restriction plate (could be wrong on that).

But if you use a M62 or similar SC than just size your turbo on the big side (60-1 would be a good start) or bigger. The turbo does not know that the supercharger is there, the engine will just flow more air than a normal DSM. when sizing your turbo instead of using the air flow numbers of the engine without the turbo like you would normally you use the airflow numbers that the engine and supercharger flow together to pick your turbo.

 

[LaN-]

All you need to do is have a turbo that can flow more than the supercharger. For Ray's set up he is looking for instant boost for rallying that is why his turbo and supercharger are so close in size. Also I think that he has to pull all that through a restriction plate (could be wrong on that).

But if you use a M62 or similar SC than just size your turbo on the big side (60-1 would be a good start) or bigger. The turbo does not know that the supercharger is there, the engine will just flow more air than a normal DSM. when sizing your turbo instead of using the air flow numbers of the engine without the turbo like you would normally you use the airflow numbers that the engine and supercharger flow together to pick your turbo.

I understand what your saying. I think one peice of confusion me and Ray are looking at this from 2 different views.

He wants to run both Turbo and S/C to be on at the same time for rally.

I want the S/C just to spool a big turbo really fast. I'd be looking to get a 60-1 and have the S/C spool it lik a 16g

Thanks for you input keep it coming.

 

[turbo addict]

I understand what your saying. I think one peice of confusion me and Ray are looking at this from 2 different views.

He wants to run both Turbo and S/C to be on at the same time for rally.

I want the S/C just to spool a big turbo really fast. I'd be looking to get a 60-1 and have the S/C spool it lik a 16g

Thanks for you input keep it coming.

Lan, If you run the the turbo and supercharger both at the same time you should have the 60-1 spool like a 16g with no ill effects but you would want to run the SC a around 5-7psi and feed the turbo into the SC. This way you will not have all the complexity of the valve and extra intercooler. Like the jackson racing SC kit for hondas. I have also seen a miata also with a SC that runs a frontmount just like a turbo, you could do this but is more piping. Feeding the supercharger the boost from the turbo doesn't hurt anythin, if you really need to run 12 or more psi just run a intercooler after it, (also a liquid intercooler is a good option). the supercharger is not a restriction as long as it is after the turbo.

 

[LaN-]

Lan, If you run the the turbo and supercharger both at the same time you should have the 60-1 spool like a 16g with no ill effects but you would want to run the SC a around 5-7psi and feed the turbo into the SC. This way you will not have all the complexity of the valve and extra intercooler. Like the jackson racing SC kit for hondas. I have also seen a miata also with a SC that runs a frontmount just like a turbo, you could do this but is more piping. Feeding the supercharger the boost from the turbo doesn't hurt anythin, if you really need to run 12 or more psi just run a intercooler after it, (also a liquid intercooler is a good option). the supercharger is not a restriction as long as it is after the turbo.

By doing that the turbo will outflow the s/c.

The entire purpose of the valve is it allows the turbo to pump more air into the engine once it outflows the s/c.

So i'm at a lack of understand on how you would set this up.

Also if i use the clutch on the supercharger and disengage the S/C i need an alternate path for the air.

Show me what S/C you would use and how you would pipe everthing if you were in my shoes.

 

[Mikael SS]

You need to pull out all the piping and just go with the clutch setup. There is no need to have hte S/C on once the turbo is spooled. There is no power increase.


You need the turbo to pull all the air in. Send it normally to the intake mani, but Y the UICP and have it go to the S/C also. Hook a clutch up and have it hooked up to a boost solenoid.

If you got all the fuel maps and timing fixed within the ECU since its not use to seeing boost so low thats by far the best way to install this setup.

If you don't know what you are talking about, keep your advice to yourself. You yourself have said you really don't know much about superchargers. Have you ever seen a diesel truck twin series turbochargers?

 

[Mikael SS]

By doing that the turbo will outflow the s/c.

The entire purpose of the valve is it allows the turbo to pump more air into the engine once it outflows the s/c.

So i'm at a lack of understand on how you would set this up.

Also if i use the clutch on the supercharger and disengage the S/C i need an alternate path for the air.

Show me what S/C you would use and how you would pipe everthing if you were in my shoes.

Its not a matter of flow with the supercharger, its compression. All it is doing is taking air on one side, compressing it, and pushing it out. If the air on one side is at 0psi or 20, the supercharger doesn't know the difference. Its similar to running a supercharged car at sea level vs elevation.

 

[Mikael SS]

The math says the supercharger is rated at 565 CFM@ 16,000 rpm and the turbo 590, so 'theroretically' you are correct. However that happens so close to my target of 584 cfm (30 psi at 6800 rpm) that I can raise the supercharger ratio a touch (custom pulley) and get the added flow by over revving the supercharger a few percent. With the new engine it will be some time before it is ready for 30 psi IF it is even possible on 8.5 pistons. My discussions with the engineers at Eaton prefer this method over the setup I had before. Either will work, it is a question of efficiencies and space. Now that everything is intercooled, I like the packaging of this better. I can always change it just more plumbing.

On another note, the old engine is out, broke the insulators off the spark plugs, I'll post some pics of the carnage.

I figured this would be an issue, but it sounds like it'll be simple enough for you to rearrange things. Hope it goes well.

 

[turbo addict]

By doing that the turbo will outflow the s/c.

The entire purpose of the valve is it allows the turbo to pump more air into the engine once it outflows the s/c.

So i'm at a lack of understand on how you would set this up.

Also if i use the clutch on the supercharger and disengage the S/C i need an alternate path for the air.

Show me what S/C you would use and how you would pipe everthing if you were in my shoes.

Mikael SS has got it right. You can't out flow the SC if it is after the turbo. I think that is ware you are having truoble. and since you can't out flow the SC that makes all of your problems you are trying to figure out go away.

I also think that Ray is heating the air too much because his turbo is too small. the turbo will make 400hp but not at the point on the compresser map that he is at (close to the choke line)

 

[LaN-]

Thanks guys, i have a more firm understanding of all this now.

I see what your talking about now as far as just having the turbo feed straight into the S/C but unless you have a way to resolve the heat issues i don't see how you could leave the S/C on without causing an insane amount of knock. Thats where the alternate air path, valve and clutch came into play.

I was thinking a liquid intercooler but not sure if that would resolve the issue.

Please give me your take.


Sorry if i as misleading people with previous posts.............i'm just trying to learn

 

[topnotchgsx]

Why not run the turbo through a FMIC like normal, have the supercharger mounted on the intake manifold, with a cooling plate or whatever it is that the roots style SC on V8's use in between the SC and the intake manifold? The air would be compressed twice and also cooled twice. Just and idea, and since it is the size of the SC and would mount under it, your woulnt need any extra pipe or any more room really.

 

[turbo addict]

Why not run the turbo through a FMIC like normal, have the supercharger mounted on the intake manifold, with a cooling plate or whatever it is that the roots style SC on V8's use in between the SC and the intake manifold? The air would be compressed twice and also cooled twice. Just and idea, and since it is the size of the SC and would mount under it, your woulnt need any extra pipe or any more room really.

Most of the V8s have an water2air intercooler in the V of the motor, that is what I was talking about.

As for ware you are putting the SC you can use different intercooler set ups. If you are putting after the throttle body then I would try the water2air if you are placing it before than you could either do a air3air water2air or meth.
At low boost (from the SC) you can get away with out running an intercooler my mirage came stock without an intercooler and was running 8-9psi.

 

[LaN-]

Most of the V8s have an water2air intercooler in the V of the motor, that is what I was talking about.

As for ware you are putting the SC you can use different intercooler set ups. If you are putting after the throttle body then I would try the water2air if you are placing it before than you could either do a air3air water2air or meth.
At low boost (from the SC) you can get away with out running an intercooler my mirage came stock without an intercooler and was running 8-9psi.

I understand the concept but i have no idea where you would route everything.

There is no way you could run the S/C without an intercooler if your pushing 20 psi outta the turbo.

I think a liquid intercooler would work the best but still imagine the setup and tell me how you think everything should be routed.

Only way to have an intercooler is to have the S/C off the intake mani like my idea with it where the A/C compressor would go.

I was thinking you could run the turbo on the FMIC like normal run it straight into the S/C under the intake mani have a pipe come up to where the battery would be, but instead make a custom liquid intercooler then route it back into the thorttle body.

This is why i wanted to implement the clutch system on the S/C. You would use it for spool then let it shut off, but then you have to find an alternate air path when it is off.

So like i said how would you make everything work if you where going to jump on this project?

 

[LaN-]

So i went to my buddies to help him put his engine in and i took some measurements while i was there.

The SLK supercharger will fit under the intake mani. As for the heat issues. this is what i came up with

I'm going to run a liquid intercooler in place of my battery / charcoal canister.

The piping will route like this

Intake - turbo - custom J pipe that will route around the engine to the back where the intake of the supercharger is. - Supercharger to the liquid intercooler - intercooler to the thorttle body.

The intercooler will sit vertically and can be fairly big with the battery bracket out of there.

I'll have a heat exchanger in the front where my FMIC is now for the liquid intercooler.

Since this will resolve the heat issues i'll just leave the s/c on and forget about my clutch idea.


Any thoughts?

 

[eclipsh]

Yes, weight and cost. How much with the water to air setup weigh and cost? Why not just use the stock SMIC for the super charger after routing the turbo to a FMIC? The stock sidemount should easily handle the 6-10 psi off the supercharger. It should weigh less and have less things that can go wrong with it, plus it is free minus the piping.

I'd cut the small pipes off and use bigger elbows etc turned for the most convenient direction too.

 

[turbo addict]

Lan, so you are getting rid of the front mount and just using the liquid2air correct. that should work fine. You could also keep the front mount and route the turbo to the SC and up to the front mount.

After doing more research on the eaton SCs I was correct in that the SC does not compress in the supercharger it just pushes air into a intake manifold faster than the engine can take it and that's where the compression comes from.

Lan what size is the supercharger you are going to use.

 

[turbo addict]

Also if I remember right the 2g mr2 that sport compact (I think it was sport compact car) did that had a lexus 3.0l V6 with the TRD SC and a T76 turbo they said that when the turbo started to make boost since the pressure was higher on the intake side of the SC that they were putting power back in through the SC belt.

 

[LaN-]

So here is "the plan"

this supercharger will fit behind the engine i place of the A/C compressor

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/98-0...emQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ003QQitemZ130083297122

I can use this liquid intercooler for both the S/C and Turbo

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Drag...017QQitemZ270095428371QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I will use this for in place of the FMIC for the liquid intercooler

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-...1QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Possibly this water pump for the liquid setup

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD...6QQihZ001QQcategoryZ33604QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I haven't done enough research to figure out how that works yet.




I'd rather not use the side mount just because of how much more piping it would add.

The liquid intercooler setup would cost 500ish which i don't mind, it would flow a lot more then the side mount anyway.

 

[turbo addict]

Lan if you wanted to you could use 2 of the intercoolers one between the turbo and SC and another between the SC and the manifold.
Also I have a liquid2air on my mirage now and I have a shurflo water pump from here.(http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=20066&tab=spec)

I have used this for over 2 years on my daily driver with zero problems. I found out about it on the syty forums and works perfectly.
You are going to have to have some place for a water filler either a tank or just a little water neck like a surge tank works well.
everything looks good though.

 

[LaN-]

There isn't enough room to put 1 air/air intercooler a liquid intercooler and the heat exchange for the liquid intercooler.

1 big liquid intercooler will be enough for my needs. I'll just get a heat exchanger that is the same size as my FMIC. That way i get to keep the look

 

[turbo addict]

One water2air should be fine. What I meant was if you wanted to you could use 2 water2air intercoolers one by the battery and maybe one in the sidemount location.
I strongly recommend the shurflo pump that thing is great and much more quiet anything thing I have seen or heard about. A local shop had a civic turbo in the 9s and had a centripuppy from spearco and said it was so loud he couldn't hear himself think. And after seeing mine in action wanted to trade.

 

[RayPeters]

Ray what does your boost curve look like (how much boost at what rpm)? And is there any way to look at your intake air temps at the intake manifold or at least after the supercharger and turbo both?

Intake temps at 22 psi total are ambient plus 40 right now. No methanol.

Boost curve isn't really a curve, think box. Seriously though the SC makes 8 psi at 1000 rpm, I have 15 by 2000 and 22 before 2500. By the time the engine is running fast enough so it doesn't sound like it is lugging I have almost full boost available. I ran a rallyX this weekend (Ridgecrest) and it pulls out of corners spinning all 4 wheels from 2000 rpm.