Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[RayPeters]

There isn't enough room to put 1 air/air intercooler a liquid intercooler and the heat exchange for the liquid intercooler.

1 big liquid intercooler will be enough for my needs. I'll just get a heat exchanger that is the same size as my FMIC. That way i get to keep the look

Keep dreaming, SC's are very much heat generating devices, intake temp +100 to 150 deg depending on pressure ratio.

 

[RayPeters]

By doing that the turbo will outflow the s/c.

The entire purpose of the valve is it allows the turbo to pump more air into the engine once it outflows the s/c.

So i'm at a lack of understand on how you would set this up.

Also if i use the clutch on the supercharger and disengage the S/C i need an alternate path for the air.

Show me what S/C you would use and how you would pipe everthing if you were in my shoes.

Wrong, the SC will flow the higher pressuer air just like the engine will. It only recompresses whatever comes in. Call Eaton if you need conformation of this.

No need for alternate path either, it will continue to rotate and pass air just fine. Maybe some gains could be seen with a bypass but not a "requirement". I can take the belt off my SC and trun the turbo up to 20 psi and it only adds a little lag to the system but once spooled I see 20 psi at the manifild just the same.

 

[eclipsh]

Ray, thanks for clearing up so much of the BS that landed in this thread with you absent for a few days.

Sounds like the car was fun as hell to rally with all that new low-end torque and instant throttle. How did you do? Any complaints, unexpected benefits?

 

[LaN-]

i also agree, thanks for answering all my questions / setting everything straight.

Some of the things i stated before were not correct, so i appologize.

Thanks to you guys I understand everything about how the S/C will flow and this setup will work.

As far as the heat issues. You don't think a 300 cubic inch water intercooler is enough to cool?


You mentioned you ran rally this weekend. Which setup are you using on the car now? Do you still have the FMIC and the side mount?

 

[RayPeters]

i also agree, thanks for answering all my questions / setting everything straight.

Some of the things i stated before were not correct, so i appologize.

Thanks to you guys I understand everything about how the S/C will flow and this setup will work.

As far as the heat issues. You don't think a 300 cubic inch water intercooler is enough to cool?


You mentioned you ran rally this weekend. Which setup are you using on the car now? Do you still have the FMIC and the side mount?

No worries, as long as the discussion stays on topic I'll stay involved.

I need to do some calcs to see if 300 cubes is enough. First where are you measuring that? Is that the Hot air side volume? If so how much radiator are you planning on having for that? Or do you want me to give you some suggestions? Remember water to air intercooling has twice as many transfer layers: air to metal, metal to water, water to metal, metal to atmosphere. Effiencies above 70% are unrealistic. Hence the reason I'm still using air to air tube and fin type. better cooling at the expense of a little max flow. A good tube and fin intercooler can approach 85% with good airflow to cool it.

RallyX in Ridgecrest CA. Using the turbo first SC second setup with dual intercooling. 22psi max and no methannol right now. No problems and torque was dripping out the tailpipe Need to look into solid engine mounts though wrecked my rear again. I'll link to times and try putting some video up, no in car stuff (way too rough for my mount) but it's still video of the car throwing dirt.

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

Sweet, looking forward to the video(s).

 

[LaN-]

No worries, as long as the discussion stays on topic I'll stay involved.

I need to do some calcs to see if 300 cubes is enough. First where are you measuring that? Is that the Hot air side volume? If so how much radiator are you planning on having for that? Or do you want me to give you some suggestions? Remember water to air intercooling has twice as many transfer layers: air to metal, metal to water, water to metal, metal to atmosphere. Effiencies above 70% are unrealistic. Hence the reason I'm still using air to air tube and fin type. better cooling at the expense of a little max flow. A good tube and fin intercooler can approach 85% with good airflow to cool it.

RallyX in Ridgecrest CA. Using the turbo first SC second setup with dual intercooling. 22psi max and no methannol right now. No problems and torque was dripping out the tailpipe Need to look into solid engine mounts though wrecked my rear again. I'll link to times and try putting some video up, no in car stuff (way too rough for my mount) but it's still video of the car throwing dirt.

I just threw out a number as far as the liquid intercooler. As far the radiator, i thought why not get one thats the same size as my front mount now. It would be fairly large and should help cool everything very well.

I was under the impression that liquid intercoolers are better then air to air ones, just more expensive.

I'm not sure how much space i have to work with yet. So far i've found a 200 cubic inch that should fit where the battery and charcoal canister are.

If i take out my ABS that will give me more space and i could angle the intercooler. Either way i can get a custom liquid intercooler made pretty cheap.

Give me some numbers on what you think would work. You'll see in the posts above the intercooler and radiator i was looking at.

Thanks for everything Ray

 

[LaN-]

Also i decided to take a jump and i purchased one of the SLK superchargers on ebay.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=280088555566&rd=1&rd=1

All else fails i'll just sell it on ebay again. Hell i'm just spending the money i've earned by selling 1g intercooler kits

 

[LaN-]

So i did some quick searching and found this about liquid intercoolers.

THIS MIGHT BE INCORRECT, so i posted it to get your opinion


This is from another post

there are 3 reasons i choose the route of water/air intercooling.

1.) Liquid/Air intercoolers are super efficient espicially when ice is used in the resivoir. it allows you to get very close to ambient or even below ambient charge temps. this is something that even the largest FMIC cannot do.

2.) because they are so efficient the overall area/size of the intercooler is much smaller than an Air/Air. Coupled with the fact that the intercooler is usually located inside of the engine bay, the amount of piping is cut in 1/2. These 2 factors allow for a lower pressure drop through the system, allowing for faster spool time.

3.) The last reason is for stealthyness. not everyone is into this, but without a huge fmic in your bumper most people just pass by unsuspecting.

 

[turbo addict]

Lan, For a liquid2air look for one that will flow the air that you need, after that the heat exchanger in front is a benefit of the L2A, you draw the heat into the water and always have cool water going into the intercooler. If you do heat soak the entire system you can just add to the cooling system, either a watertank or more heat exchangers in addition to what you already have. The downside of the L2A is price complexity and weight, but is very efficient.

 

[LaN-]

Lan, For a liquid2air look for one that will flow the air that you need, after that the heat exchanger in front is a benefit of the L2A, you draw the heat into the water and always have cool water going into the intercooler. If you do heat soak the entire system you can just add to the cooling system, either a watertank or more heat exchangers in addition to what you already have. The downside of the L2A is price complexity and weight, but is very efficient.

Thanks

 

[RayPeters]

So i did some quick searching and found this about liquid intercoolers.

THIS MIGHT BE INCORRECT, so i posted it to get your opinion


This is from another post

there are 3 reasons i choose the route of water/air intercooling.

1.) Liquid/Air intercoolers are super efficient espicially when ice is used in the resivoir. it allows you to get very close to ambient or even below ambient charge temps. this is something that even the largest FMIC cannot do.

2.) because they are so efficient the overall area/size of the intercooler is much smaller than an Air/Air. Coupled with the fact that the intercooler is usually located inside of the engine bay, the amount of piping is cut in 1/2. These 2 factors allow for a lower pressure drop through the system, allowing for faster spool time.

3.) The last reason is for stealthyness. not everyone is into this, but without a huge fmic in your bumper most people just pass by unsuspecting.

1. This is great for drag racing, but who wants to look for ice all the time for a DD? Do some more research, most drag intercoolers like that don't even have a radiator up fromt, they just dump the heat into a cooler full of ice water. Great for 15 sec run, useless for a 3 hour drive into the mountains.

2. They are NOT more efficient if you are only using air to cool the radiator. Get your physics book out. This can work, but it isn't as good as you think.

3. If you have a air to air FMIC that is 28x12x3, you will need to be able to dissipate that much heat in your water to air setup. Many times the advantage is in packaging and the fact that the water has a lot of thermal mass. This means you can dump a bunch of heat into it for a short period, then the Radiatir takes 10 min to get the water back to near ambient temps but it is ok because you aren't using the supercharger then. Man keep doing your research. You can make this work but you need more details worked out.

 

[RayPeters]

Ok everyone, here's a semi crappy video of the car running the rallycross. It is most of my third run, posted a reasonable run but the 4th was the fast one. Enjoy!!

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Also look for a full write-up later this week.

Ray

ps Lan if you end up not wanting that slk m62, let me know I have another wild hair. growing.

 

[LaN-]

1. This is great for drag racing, but who wants to look for ice all the time for a DD? Do some more research, most drag intercoolers like that don't even have a radiator up fromt, they just dump the heat into a cooler full of ice water. Great for 15 sec run, useless for a 3 hour drive into the mountains.

2. They are NOT more efficient if you are only using air to cool the radiator. Get your physics book out. This can work, but it isn't as good as you think.

3. If you have a air to air FMIC that is 28x12x3, you will need to be able to dissipate that much heat in your water to air setup. Many times the advantage is in packaging and the fact that the water has a lot of thermal mass. This means you can dump a bunch of heat into it for a short period, then the Radiatir takes 10 min to get the water back to near ambient temps but it is ok because you aren't using the supercharger then. Man keep doing your research. You can make this work but you need more details worked out.

If you think they are only good for drag setup then why do some cars come with the from the factory? Like the Typhoon or the cyclone?

I will do more research but i've heard of some people using these as DD with no issues. I'll try to come up with 2 different senarios 1.) using the liquid intercooler other with air to air.

Obviously the air to air is going to be harder to route but i'll figure it out. mabye i can run a pipe under the engine to the inlet of my FMIC now, but idk yet.

I'll go and take some more measurements tonight.

 

[RayPeters]

If you think they are only good for drag setup then why do some cars come with the from the factory? Like the Typhoon or the cyclone?

I will do more research but i've heard of some people using these as DD with no issues. I'll try to come up with 2 different senarios 1.) using the liquid intercooler other with air to air.

Obviously the air to air is going to be harder to route but i'll figure it out. mabye i can run a pipe under the engine to the inlet of my FMIC now, but idk yet.

I'll go and take some more measurements tonight.

They use the engine coolant so intake temps are at water temp. Limited boost as well they are running a total of 8-12 maybe 14 lbs. I'm all for a liquid IC, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I want you to do your research now and not engineer yourself into a corner. I want you to suceed and I am only being difficult now so you have to think it all out on paper. I went air to air because I had the room for the piping and I already have a few fmic's laying around.

Please don't go under the engine. There is room on top. Nothing sucks worse than ripping the piping off on something and filling the intake with dirt/rocks etc from whatever you just hit.

I have drawings for our next rally car that will use a rear mounted cooling system and a water to air IC with everything in the trunk area for durability. It is amazing how fast you can go if you never have to worry about crushing a FMIC on a dip or jump .

here's a link to some of the best info put in one spot. I have had several IC's from these guys and their engineers are very experienced and helpful. http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5

 

[RayPeters]

Before I get burned for this, this assumes very good frontal airflow and a big enough radiator for the water system. Email their tech dept for application specifics before you take this as gospel. I've been down this path. It CAN work, but it may not be easily optimized.

What ranges of efficiency can be expected from an intercooler?
A typical air-to-air intercooler for a street application achieves between 60% and 70% efficiency, an excellent/optimum design for road racing can approach close to 90% efficiency, but requires an adequate "budget!"

Typically, a liquid-to-air intercooler achieves higher efficiencies than an air-to-air intercooler, starting at 75% efficiency and reaching peaks of 95% efficiency. Another advantage is the optional use of ice as a coolant, which is the only way to reduce the charge-air temperature below the ambient air temperature.

 

[LaN-]

They use the engine coolant so intake temps are at water temp. Limited boost as well they are running a total of 8-12 maybe 14 lbs. I'm all for a liquid IC, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I want you to do your research now and not engineer yourself into a corner. I want you to suceed and I am only being difficult now so you have to think it all out on paper. I went air to air because I had the room for the piping and I already have a few fmic's laying around.

Please don't go under the engine. There is room on top. Nothing sucks worse than ripping the piping off on something and filling the intake with dirt/rocks etc from whatever you just hit.

I have drawings for our next rally car that will use a rear mounted cooling system and a water to air IC with everything in the trunk area for durability. It is amazing how fast you can go if you never have to worry about crushing a FMIC on a dip or jump .

here's a link to some of the best info put in one spot. I have had several IC's from these guys and their engineers are very experienced and helpful. http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212621&highlight=water+intercooler

Above is a thread i was looking about the liquid intercooler. Read it and let me know what you think.

I would be using a 700 cubic inch radiator (same size as my FMIC) for the setup.

I will send an email to bell intercoolers about our application and let you know what they say.


As far as going on top for the piping. I doubt i'll have room. I need one pipe to go from the turbo to the S/C (it will wrap around the engine) and then i'll have to go all the way back to the inlet of the FMIC.

I think i'll start a post on people that use water I/C's for DD, maybe i'll get some good info there.

Thanks

 

[RayPeters]

That is a great thread. I like how neat that all fits, not sure if there will be more or less room with the IC mounted in the engine compartment like that, but it sure does make the tubing runs short.

 

[LaN-]

That is a great thread. I like how neat that all fits, not sure if there will be more or less room with the IC mounted in the engine compartment like that, but it sure does make the tubing runs short.

You'll also see in that thread they talk about using the water I/C for DD with no problems. Just food for thought.

 

[RayPeters]

It can be used for DD, but just think about it all, that 10 gal tank in the trunk is nice, but leave the car sitting in the phoenix sun all day at work and it will get the water up to 130+. I'm all for you trying it, heck I might even look into it again for my DD, I already have specs for the Rally car, the trunk mounted IC requires the use of water.

In the end you can't get somethign for nothing. If you have 3000 Watts of heat to get rid of, it will take X radiator with Y airflow if you want to system to be stable. If you only are concerned with burst performance then the IC needs to be big enough to flow the compressed air, and hold enough cold water for the run time, then a small radiator spends the time you aren't demanding IC to dissipate that heat into the passing air.

Also keep in mind my systen needs CONSTANT cooling because the compessor runs all the time. This necessetates a larger IC than drag racing or the clutch based idea, but the performance is nice. I keep my temps down two ways: 1st Intercooling both stages neans temps are minimal to begin with, second under low load conditions I bypass at least 1.6 times the amount of air the engine needs at a given rpm at low pressure so there is little heating anyway. I'm looking into adding the clutch to my system, LAN, let me know when you get that SLK unit so I can request a couple of measurements off the clutch.

 

[LaN-]

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/A_107760/cms/article.html

I think you might like that.

I states the issues with letting your car sit for awhile with the liquid intercooler. The water will just get hot.

I think i'm going to go this route anyway and i'll have 2 slim fans on back of the heat exchanger that will activate depending on the water temp. This should help if the car just sits.

I can fit a liquid intercooler with a core that is 10x7.5x5. - Overall size (with end tanks) will be 12x15x5

The heat exchanger will be 26x8x3.5
Some type of Sprayer would be nice also.

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

Thats a lot of plumbing. Plus if you have the fans run depending on water temp. that will drain the battery quickly. At least you do not live in AZ like Ray. Good luck with the setup though. Sounds complex.

 

[Mikael SS]

There isn't enough room to put 1 air/air intercooler a liquid intercooler and the heat exchange for the liquid intercooler.

1 big liquid intercooler will be enough for my needs. I'll just get a heat exchanger that is the same size as my FMIC. That way i get to keep the look

You still really aren't understanding the dynamics of what you're planning to do. Right now you're setting yourself up for a big disappointment.

Not cooling the air from the turbo entering the supercharger is almost defeating the purpose of a twin charged system- its not for intake temps or reducing the possiblity of detonation, its to create a denser air charge for the supercharger to grab.


You really need to do a lot of research before you just start trying to put this together- unless you don't care about the money. I also dont' understand why anybody would want the complication of shutting one power adder down.

 

[turbo addict]

They use the engine coolant so intake temps are at water temp. Limited boost as well they are running a total of 8-12 maybe 14 lbs. I'm all for a liquid IC, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I want you to do your research now and not engineer yourself into a corner. I want you to suceed and I am only being difficult now so you have to think it all out on paper. I went air to air because I had the room for the piping and I already have a few fmic's laying around.

Please don't go under the engine. There is room on top. Nothing sucks worse than ripping the piping off on something and filling the intake with dirt/rocks etc from whatever you just hit.

I have drawings for our next rally car that will use a rear mounted cooling system and a water to air IC with everything in the trunk area for durability. It is amazing how fast you can go if you never have to worry about crushing a FMIC on a dip or jump .

here's a link to some of the best info put in one spot. I have had several IC's from these guys and their engineers are very experienced and helpful. http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5

The syclones use antifreeze but it is not part of the cooling system they have their own pump and heat exchanger. I have a L2A in my mirage and works great. Every one of my friends told me the exact same thing that you are saying and told me I was a dumba$$ for doing it. But I am the type of person that will do something just to prove people wrong.
so I went ahead with the project. I have a syclone intercooler a 92-95 civic radiator under the trunk (=no airflow) with the stock fan and the pump I mentioned earlier. And the system works great I have it set up so that I turn a switch on and the pump and fan come on at the same time. I have also added a fuel cell (just because I had an extra) in the mix for ice. The car never had a problem with heat soak and this is in a 4g61t (1.6l) with a e316g which i run 20-22psi on pump and about 32-33psi on race, with almost no knock.

 

[RayPeters]

The syclones use antifreeze but it is not part of the cooling system they have their own pump and heat exchanger. I have a L2A in my mirage and works great. Every one of my friends told me the exact same thing that you are saying and told me I was a dumba$$ for doing it. But I am the type of person that will do something just to prove people wrong.
so I went ahead with the project. I have a syclone intercooler a 92-95 civic radiator under the trunk (=no airflow) with the stock fan and the pump I mentioned earlier. And the system works great I have it set up so that I turn a switch on and the pump and fan come on at the same time. I have also added a fuel cell (just because I had an extra) in the mix for ice. The car never had a problem with heat soak and this is in a 4g61t (1.6l) with a e316g which i run 20-22psi on pump and about 32-33psi on race, with almost no knock.

Sorry on the mis info on the cyclone, it has been a few years since my father had one, and by the time he was done with it, only the shell was the same, man that thing hauled. I've said several times it should work, just be sure you have everything sized properly and you'll be good to go.

Race fuel = I wish I could run it all the time.