Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[turbo addict]

Sorry on the mis info on the cyclone, it has been a few years since my father had one, and by the time he was done with it, only the shell was the same, man that thing hauled. I've said several times it should work, just be sure you have everything sized properly and you'll be good to go.

Race fuel = I wish I could run it all the time.

Just use as big as you can fit in there. The nice thing about the L2A is you can put the heat exchangers anywhere as long as you have a fan. And you can add to what you already have if your setup is heat soaking.
I have some videos of my $hit box here( http://www.1320video.com/videos.php) with the intercooler doing its thing. http://www.1320video.com/vids/MayJuneQuickImports2.wmv
And if you look around on that page you will see the blue turbo truck that also has a L2A, the last time that I talked to him he was on his way back from the dyno and made 1054whp at 22psi. And he has a heat exchanger in front. and drives it all the time.
you can see how hot everything got in there but the intercooler and the intercooler pipe going to the throttle body was the coolest part of the bay.
in the races with the mustang we (our robots) didn't lift until 130mph each time. engine very hot
P.S. fwd=no traction until 4th gear.
all racing done by robots.

 

[LaN-]

Hey Ray,

How do you regulate the boost on your S/C? What makes it from not boosting at idle or on the highway? I know there is a bypass valve built into it but i'm just curious.

 

[RayPeters]

Hey Ray,

How do you regulate the boost on your S/C? What makes it from not boosting at idle or on the highway? I know there is a bypass valve built into it but i'm just curious.

I am not actually using the internal bypass valve in this installation. It really isn't in the right spot now. I have an external bypass that is open until ~ 0psi manifold pressure, then it closes and off it goes 8psi instantly and the rest in very short order. IF you look closely at some of the pics, you will see the 1G BOV in the pipe right before the GM MAFS. That has been heavily modified to be a bypass valve not a BOV anymore.

So at adle and off boost times the system bypasses LOTS of air. Sounds interesting for the first 10 min but on a 6 hour trip to california it gets a little old. This also keeps the charge air cool because it is always fresh air being pumped through the system.

 

[LaN-]

I am not actually using the internal bypass valve in this installation. It really isn't in the right spot now. I have an external bypass that is open until ~ 0psi manifold pressure, then it closes and off it goes 8psi instantly and the rest in very short order. IF you look closely at some of the pics, you will see the 1G BOV in the pipe right before the GM MAFS. That has been heavily modified to be a bypass valve not a BOV anymore.

So at adle and off boost times the system bypasses LOTS of air. Sounds interesting for the first 10 min but on a 6 hour trip to california it gets a little old. This also keeps the charge air cool because it is always fresh air being pumped through the system.

I figured it was something like that. So if that BOV is a bypass for the S/C where is your normal BOV?

Also what did you do to change it over?

I think i'll use a pressure switch that will activate the S/C......what do you think, its the same as yours but i'm just using the clutch. My only concern is how well will the car run with the S/C off? Would it just spin freely allowing air to go through?


Could you draw up a diagram like the ones we did earlier in this thread to show you you have everything setup in your car. I would like to see that for reference.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Rob10_99]

you said you were still using the AC right?

why not rig something inside the resivior tank and chill the water?
there you have a DD with a flip of a switch or temp sensor you can turn the pump on or off!

Ive been daydreaming about some sort of AC system for intake cooling for years now,
but water cooling(with antifreze) seems like the way to go.
get a big AC radiator and slap it on,

whatcha thinkin now!

 

[LaN-]

you said you were still using the AC right?

why not rig something inside the resivior tank and chill the water?
there you have a DD with a flip of a switch or temp sensor you can turn the pump on or off!

Ive been daydreaming about some sort of AC system for intake cooling for years now,
but water cooling(with antifreze) seems like the way to go.
get a big AC radiator and slap it on,

whatcha thinkin now!

No i no longer have my A/C. Its not that bad of an idea, i'm not sure how well it would work.

 

[turbo addict]

No i no longer have my A/C. Its not that bad of an idea, i'm not sure how well it would work.

It works pretty well there used to be a shop that made these but is very complex and takes up a lot of space. I will look to see if the shop is still around as this was about 4-5 years ago.

 

[wishihadatalon]

you said you were still using the AC right?

why not rig something inside the resivior tank and chill the water?
there you have a DD with a flip of a switch or temp sensor you can turn the pump on or off!

Ive been daydreaming about some sort of AC system for intake cooling for years now,
but water cooling(with antifreze) seems like the way to go.
get a big AC radiator and slap it on,

whatcha thinkin now!

I read in a magazine that they were going to use a system like this for the lightning. I don't know if it made it to production before they shut down the SVT project but it sounded pretty cool.

 

[Mikael SS]

Hey Ray,

How do you regulate the boost on your S/C? What makes it from not boosting at idle or on the highway? I know there is a bypass valve built into it but i'm just curious.

Its called a throttle body.

 

[RayPeters]

If you would of read his other post you'd notice he was not using the throttle body on this. Its a modified 1g BOV.

it still has a TB on it, it is under the SC.

Ok guys,
The discussion has been interesting, but Mike, you're asking me to spoon feed you stuff that I've spent hours or weeks figuring out how to do. I'm not inclined to do this. I have a working bypass for my system, are you sure you'll even need one with the SC on a clutch?? You are asking me to work out your design problems. I'm more than happy to do this, but generally I get paid to do this. If you propose a solution to your problem, I will offer suggestions and ideas to make it better, but I'm not going to hand over my design for you to try. You'll notice I'm not on the board here to ask others how to build the system; I brought a working solution for others to look at. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I've spent years getting to this point, what I'm after is for you to UNDERSTAND WHY you need a certain part or WHY W2A is better/worse than A2A for a particular application. That is called an education, once you have that, you can design a system for any car, not just bolt parts together from someone else’s ideas.

Ok, now that I have that off my chest, here's what I WILL tell you about bypass valve design versus BOV design. A BOV is designed to only release pressure to prevent compressor surge, a bypass valve is designed to divert excess air under conditions when it isn't needed i.e. idle or cruise conditions. A BOV compares Manifold pressure to pipe pressure. It opens when there is a large enough pressure differential between the two sides of the diaphragm to overcome a spring. This spring is adjustable in most aftermarket BOVs to accommodate various pressure/flow situations.
A Bypass valve is mush different. It bypasses air when the engine doesn't need higher than atmospheric pressure at the TB. These can be controlled many ways, but the end result is still the same. At idle and under cruise conditions, the vacuum in the manifold holds the valve open. Once the throttle is open far enough that manifold vacuum drops to 0, then there is a light spring that begins to close the valve. This causes a rise in pressure which acts on the bypass diaphragm to further close the valve and now boost pressure is forcing the valve to seal. It will not open again until the pressure differential is greater than the spring (usually only 3 or 4 psi difference will start opening these again). All that being said the system won't need a BOV and a bypass valve, you tell me why though.

 

[LaN-]

it still has a TB on it, it is under the SC.

Ok guys,
The discussion has been interesting, but Mike, you're asking me to spoon feed you stuff that I've spent hours or weeks figuring out how to do. I'm not inclined to do this. I have a working bypass for my system, are you sure you'll even need one with the SC on a clutch?? You are asking me to work out your design problems. I'm more than happy to do this, but generally I get paid to do this. If you propose a solution to your problem, I will offer suggestions and ideas to make it better, but I'm not going to hand over my design for you to try. You'll notice I'm not on the board here to ask others how to build the system; I brought a working solution for others to look at. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I've spent years getting to this point, what I'm after is for you to UNDERSTAND WHY you need a certain part or WHY W2A is better/worse than A2A for a particular application. That is called an education, once you have that, you can design a system for any car, not just bolt parts together from someone else's ideas.

Ok, now that I have that off my chest, here's what I WILL tell you about bypass valve design versus BOV design. A BOV is designed to only release pressure to prevent compressor surge, a bypass valve is designed to divert excess air under conditions when it isn't needed i.e. idle or cruise conditions. A BOV compares Manifold pressure to pipe pressure. It opens when there is a large enough pressure differential between the two sides of the diaphragm to overcome a spring. This spring is adjustable in most aftermarket BOVs to accommodate various pressure/flow situations.
A Bypass valve is mush different. It bypasses air when the engine doesn't need higher than atmospheric pressure at the TB. These can be controlled many ways, but the end result is still the same. At idle and under cruise conditions, the vacuum in the manifold holds the valve open. Once the throttle is open far enough that manifold vacuum drops to 0, then there is a light spring that begins to close the valve. This causes a rise in pressure which acts on the bypass diaphragm to further close the valve and now boost pressure is forcing the valve to seal. It will not open again until the pressure differential is greater than the spring (usually only 3 or 4 psi difference will start opening these again). All that being said the system won't need a BOV and a bypass valve, you tell me why though.

I understand what you're saying about the bypass system. I'll do more research when I'm home from work.

As for everything else.

You can tell that I'm the type of person that doesn't have a problem asking questions......ALOT of questions......and sometimes people are annoyed by this.

(Not that I expect anyone to believe me, but due to my reading disability asking I've learned to learn from others............sorta a habit)

I do apologize for this and will begin to take things more slowly with my own R&D.

In no way am I trying to get you to spend a lot of time and design my system for me. I'm just trying to learn. I do appreciate all the time and effort you have put in on this including dealing with me .

With that said I'll back down and take things slower. Doing Research and figuring it on my own (not that like it's a bad thing).

If I have any further questions I'll simply PM you since I seem to be interfering with this thread and I'd rather not see it get closed because of a newb.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[RayPeters]

I understand what you’re saying about the bypass system. I'll do more research when I’m home from work.

As for everything else.

You can tell that I’m the type of person that doesn't have a problem asking questions......ALOT of questions......and sometimes people are annoyed by this.

(Not that I expect anyone to believe me, but due to my reading disability asking I’ve learned to learn from others............sorta a habit)

I do apologize for this and will begin to take things more slowly with my own R&D.

In no way am I trying to get you to spend a lot of time and design my system for me. I'm just trying to learn. I do appreciate all the time and effort you have put in on this including dealing with me .

With that said I’ll back down and take things slower. Doing Research and figuring it on my own (not that like it's a bad thing).

If I have any further questions I’ll simply PM you since I seem to be interfering with this thread and I’d rather not see it get closed because of a newb.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,
No worries on the thread closing from me, I just want you to understand why you are doing something, not just doing it because I did it or someone else told you to do it. See my point? I'm cool with discussing ideas because it pushes both of us to think everything through. I think our technical discussions SHOULD be here in a forum for everyone else to read, hence the reason I started the tread to begin with. You have a good idea, I like the SLK supercharger, take notes, make drawings, take measurements, do everything you can to prevent HUA (head up butt) when you have the TIG gun in your hand and discover that the engine is bigger than you thought. A little experience talking here, I have 1 intake that is scrap from a cut first measure second issue. The internet is a great thing because it takes the distubuted experience and ideas of people and makes discussions like this possible, otherwise you and I may have never met and you'd not know that someone is currently trying this. Your version will likely have issues other than the ones I have, our goals are slightly different as well. Lets keep this going, from the looks of the stats lots of people are lurking and reading, so it must be interesting to them.

So and we won't any more. So as they say back to the tech stuff.


I'm using 2" tubing right now and intend to convert to 2.5 for the hard piping, anyone have a decent flow estimating system for air in tubes? I can find lots for fluids in pipes but air can be compressed so it changes things.? Also I'd expect boost creep from my 18G at 8-10 psi with all the air I should be flowing and still using the internal WG, any feeling on why not? I'm thinking the IC piping must be too restrictive, or the 2G head on the car isn't flowing like I think at the top end.... comments welcome.

Ray

 

[LaN-]

i would imagine you've heard about the VW twincharger, but i've never seen a picture that actually broke it down. Tell me what you think


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/inside_vws_new_.html

 

[RayPeters]

i would imagine you've heard about the VW twincharger, but i've never seen a picture that actually broke it down. Tell me what you think


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/inside_vws_new_.html

Yep, they're just as clever as we are, but they have more budget to work with (aka clutch in waterpump). However a good job of backyard seat of the pants engineering can yeild impressive results for a fraction of the development costs. Let see what we can do

 

[LaN-]

Yep, they're just as clever as we are, but they have more budget to work with (aka clutch in waterpump). However a good job of backyard seat of the pants engineering can yeild impressive results for a fraction of the development costs. Let see what we can do

I agree .

In the end i think try both setups.

To be honest i like the VW design better but thats only because if i did it that way i could keep my FMIC and not have to deal with the W/A IC.......(not spending more money is a good thing )

Right now its not a huge deal for me. My primary focus is mounting the S/C and doing my research for tuning the ECU properly.

My S/C will be here tomorrow i'll snap some pics for you.

 

[donk]

Dont know if its any help to somebody , but its a nice piece of work from sweden
,check it out.

http://www.hilmersson-racing.com/start.asp?show=j

/A

 

[LaN-]

Well the supercharger came in awhile ago, but after today i'll have an entire mock up engine so i can test fitment. So far it looks like there will be no issues mounting the S/C where teh A/C compressor is.

I'm currently getting flanges made and i'll be taking my mock up engine to a local shop so they can fab up some brackets to mount the S/C.

I ended up ordering a SIMM to make to give me a little bit more room. I don't think i needed it but it gave me a good excuse to buy one .

I'll take pictures of everything later today.

Any updates Ray?

 

[2GturboTALON]

any vids of this thing on the street?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

You need to pull out all the piping and just go with the clutch setup. There is no need to have hte S/C on once the turbo is spooled. There is no power increase. You need the turbo to pull all the air in. Send it normally to the intake mani, but Y the UICP and have it go to the S/C also. Hook a clutch up and have it hooked up to a boost solenoid. If you got all the fuel maps and timing fixed within the ECU since its not use to seeing boost so low thats by far the best way to install this setup.

That's an interesting idea, but explain to me how you are going to keep the high pressure air from going back down the y tube of the uicp? If the SC is making boost and the turbo isn't, there is NOTHING to stop it from back flowing the compressor. And then lets assume we do get to spool the turbo, now you have the reverse problem. The SC is unclutched and is now just a huge boost leak. The fancy valves that would be involved to make this possible will require extensive control to make this driveable, but the complication would be messy to say the least.

Hey Ray.... I've been wondering about the intercoller "Y" and back pressure problem the whole time, but didnt know how to ask the question.

If the Super charger creates boost right away, and the Turbo does not make boost untill later in the RPM...... Then you are going to have this backpressure problem until the turbo spools up. The boost of the SC is going to hit that Y in the intercooler, and end up going out the turbo intake pipe. That seems defeats the whole purpose of the supercharger (which is to make instant boost while the turbo takes time to spool) ....???

Maybe there is a flap valve that you can instal??? ....like the vavle of a heart. It could be installed into the intercooler pipe right before the 2 IC pipes inter the Y section, and go into the TB?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Maybe somthing like this....?

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[NewTurboTuner]

Oops... I might have posted that too soon. Or too late
I just finished reading it all ....I should have read to the end before posting.

Hey well Great work by the way! ....I love creative thinking!

 

[LaN-]

Oops... I might have posted that too soon. Or too late
I just finished reading it all ....I should have read to the end before posting.

Hey well Great work by the way! ....I love creative thinking!

Yeah we talked this over already. I will be doing something along those lines. If you see the post about the VW twincharger it gives you a break down of how they did it.

For the valve i ordered a 3" exhaust cutout valve that should work fine.

Sorry i don't have pictures yet the S/C is at my buddies house getting measure so he can make some flanges in autocad.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

I've had a QTP electronic exhaust cutout, and it didn't open/close very quickly. The electric motor that turns the blade is geared for torque, not speed. It takes the blade motor a couple seconds to turn the blade from full closed, to full open. I think the Throttle Body idea might work, or maybe use the exhaust cutout valve system (without the electric motor) ....BUT.... with a solenoid that would POP the blade open/close real quick.

 

[LaN-]

I've had a QTP electronic exhaust cutout, and it didn't open/close very quickly. The electric motor that turns the blade is geared for torque, not speed. It takes the blade motor a couple seconds to turn the blade from full closed, to full open. I think the Throttle Body idea might work, or maybe use the exhaust cutout valve system (without the electric motor) ....BUT.... with a solenoid that would POP the blade open/close real quick.

thanks for the info.

You are correct about the time it take to open the valve. Its about 3 seconds to fully open .

Honestly it might not be a huge issue i'll just have to delay the clutch on the S/C. Make sure it only shuts off when the valve is completely open. If you think about it The valve will only open when the turbo is pulling more air then w/e the S/C is set at and that will cause a vacuum and it should only be able to flow 1 way.

I sent an email to QTP maybe i can get a different size gear to make it faster.

We will see

 

[RayPeters]

Update: Made it to the dyno, 468 ft lbs and 452 HP. I'll have to scan the sheet at home if I can get my POS Epson scanner to work. 22psi and ~600cc Methanol. I think there is more to be had, but I need to build the better bottom end. Any suggestions for a 7.5:1 stroker piston / rod combo? I'm having problems locating a supplier for the pistons. No one wants to go that low on compression.

Lan - I almost have a dual TB setup done, one for the SC and one for the Turbo. The gas pedal controls the max openning amount and the pressure from each device drives the throttle plate open against the stop. Once the turbo spools, a pressure switch de-clutches the SC and the TB for the SC closes completely. Food for thought.