Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[LaN-]

In the picture you have 2 intercoolers correct?

Where are you going to put them?

My original idea for this setup would be to mount the S/C under the intake manifold where the A/C compressor is then run a pipe from the outlet of the turbo around the block to the inlet of the S/C. Next you will need to run a pipe to where battery/CC is suppose to be and have a liquid intercooler sitting vertically. You'd route that into the thorttle body and be done. As far as the bypass valves and such you'd have to figure that out.

You also would have to find a smaller S/C like a procharger to fit behind the block and flow enough air.

 

[dsm-onster]

Shouldn't it be going back into the line before the supercharger, and possibly the turbo, not after?

it is going back to intake piping before supercharger.

Recirculating it to before the turbo will make the bypass valve "see" the full boost amount (turbo boost + supercharger boost) and need to be have a stronger spring than the 2g bypass valve. However, if placed like in the pic., the only ratio "seen" by the bypass valve (at the valve not at the vacuum port) will be 1.6 or so.

 

[dsm-onster]

In the picture you have 2 intercoolers correct?

Where are you going to put them?

My original idea for this setup would be to mount the S/C under the intake manifold where the A/C compressor is then run a pipe from the outlet of the turbo around the block to the inlet of the S/C. Next you will need to run a pipe to where battery/CC is suppose to be and have a liquid intercooler sitting vertically. You'd route that into the thorttle body and be done. As far as the bypass valves and such you'd have to figure that out.

You also would have to find a smaller S/C like a procharger to fit behind the block and flow enough air.

Water/meth injection is a far better intercooler than an air to air intercooler. I will have my front mount after my turbo. Then run piping to the s/c. The s/c will likely be where the ac compressor was. . . unless it's too large. From the s/c, I will pipe to the bypass valve, then the maf, then to a water injection nozzle, then the throttlebody. . . So yea for my setup I should have put the second intercooler after the maf but before the throttlebody.

 

[dsm-onster]

I also have no powersteering or powersteering pump. So I could probably fit the s/c there nicely if I can get proper heat shielding from the exhaust mani.

Here's a better pic of what I'm trying to say:

EDIT: wait I am an idiot, eclipsh!!! I put the recirulation system around the intercooler not the supercharger hahahahahahaha!!!!. . .hold on

RE-EDIT: this pic has been corrected to show what i was really trying to say.

 

[LaN-]

i know how good meth injection is but its not streetable. You'll always have to be filling up.

If your mount it where the A/C compressor is you should be able to run a liquid intercooler. It should do the job perfectly, i've seen people run them with very good results.

 

[dsm-onster]

Why run a water/air ic? You're only going to be as efficient as an air/air at best, unless you take away the "streetability" by running ice water. You'll still need room for a large heat exchanger up front to cool the water down after the water cools the aircharge. Save the money and time rigging a pump and water tank and just pipe to another intercooler that will be the same size as the heat exchanger in a water/air ic setup .

Winter mix 50/50 water/meth wiperfluid can be had for $1.50 a gallon. And i have a 2 gallon tank that I fill up about every 15 days. Also, the water mist in the combustion chamber doubles as a significant effective octane booster (runs 93 up to about 110). I don't mind that for streetability .

Besides, considering that the heat efficiency of the roots/twin-screw supercharger is somewhere around 55%, I'd think that a fillup of fluid every other fuel fillup is worth it. I alternate checking the fluid level with checking my oil. This day in age where we have fuel pumps that have locking triggers , I consider it a good use of the time .

. . .But then again I don't mind a little lag either. I'm not looking at this setup to negate lag alone.

 

[RayPeters]

The first is RayPeters setup. The second is mine. Mine is just the typical orientation of a supercharger bypass valve found stock on engines which incorporate a stock supercharger (i.e. T-bird Super Coup, Grand Prix GTP, Regal GT 3800, etc.)

Incorrect 2nd pic. That bypass won't do ya any good. Connect it to the inlet of the SC and you'll have what the factory install on a 3800 does. You'll then also haveto deal with the turbo bov as it has nothing in your proposal. Food for thought as always. If this was easy everyone would have one.

Ray

 

[LaN-]

Why run a water/air ic? You're only going to be as efficient as an air/air at best, unless you take away the "streetability" by running ice water. You'll still need room for a large heat exchanger up front to cool the water down after the water cools the aircharge. Save the money and time rigging a pump and water tank and just pipe to another intercooler that will be the same size as the heat exchanger in a water/air ic setup .

Winter mix 50/50 water/meth wiperfluid can be had for $1.50 a gallon. And i have a 2 gallon tank that I fill up about every 15 days. Also, the water mist in the combustion chamber doubles as a significant effective octane booster (runs 93 up to about 110). I don't mind that for streetability .

Besides, considering that the heat efficiency of the roots/twin-screw supercharger is somewhere around 55%, I'd think that a fillup of fluid every other fuel fillup is worth it. I alternate checking the fluid level with checking my oil. This day in age where we have fuel pumps that have locking triggers , I consider it a good use of the time .

. . .But then again I don't mind a little lag either. I'm not looking at this setup to negate lag alone.

If meth works then fine, but explain to me where you could put the air/air intercooler(s)? if the S/C was behind the block and still cool everything properly (without meth).

For the liquid setup, they will run as efficient if not better then the air to air IC's. You could get a heat exchanger that is the exact same size as the FMIC and put it in the same place.

This way you would only have to run 1 intercooler where the battery / CC are and everything would be cooled properly. You could still run the meth for the improved octane but only when really needed.

 

[dsm-onster]

If meth works then fine, but explain to me where you could put the air/air intercooler(s)? if the S/C was behind the block and still cool everything properly (without meth).

Piping . we run piping for front mounts from god-knows-where to everywhere else. . . what's the difference?

For the liquid setup, they will run as efficient if not better then the air to air IC's. You could get a heat exchanger that is the exact same size as the FMIC and put it in the same place.

I am sorry to be so untactful, but what are you using to cool your water that is cooling your air charge? Air at ambient temps? how can that cool the water that cools the aircharge BETTER than the the same ambient air temps cooling the aircharge directly w/ an air/air intercooler? Ice is the key to good workiong water/air intercoolers, bud. . .Agin I don't mean to be nasty or degrade you.

This way you would only have to run 1 intercooler where the battery / CC are and everything would be cooled properly. You could still run the meth for the improved octane but only when really needed.

Still have torun 2 intercoolers. Whether it be meth/water or ambient cooling. . .

 

[LaN-]

Piping . we run piping for front mounts from god-knows-where to everywhere else. . . what's the difference?


I am sorry to be so untactful, but what are you using to cool your water that is cooling your air charge? Air at ambient temps? how can that cool the water that cools the aircharge BETTER than the the same ambient air temps cooling the aircharge directly w/ an air/air intercooler? Ice is the key to good workiong water/air intercoolers, bud. . .Agin I don't mean to be nasty or degrade you.


Still have torun 2 intercoolers. Whether it be meth/water or ambient cooling. . .

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21589&highlight=water+intercooler

There are alot of people running A/W IC's DD and it cools the water perfectly fine.

I don't understand why you think you'd still have to run 2 intercoolers. See the attached picture running a setup like this you can cool both systems on 1 intercooler. As long as you have a big enough heat exchanger for the liquid you should never have heat soak issues.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-...1QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

that is just about the same size as a FMIC and would work perfectly. Match that with a 300 - 400 cubic inch A/W IC and you should have no issues what so ever.

Hopefully the picture will give you an idea of how everything will mount up. You also wouldn't have pipes going everywhere.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'll PMed you so that the thread stays more on track. We're deviating somewhat. . .I will say for the sake of twin charging that intercooling between chargers is more effective then after. . . Volvo and others in fact initiated the term "intercooling" because of their twin charging systems incorperated cooling intermediately (between chargers). My math shows an acute affect on total mass flow and consequently horsepower when cooling takes place intermediately. . .

 

[RayPeters]

I'll PMed you so that the thread stays more on track. We're deviating somewhat. . .I will say for the sake of twin charging that intercooling between chargers is more effective then after. . . Volvo and others in fact initiated the term "intercooling" because of their twin charging systems incorperated cooling intermediately (between chargers). My math shows an acute affect on total mass flow and consequently horsepower when cooling takes place intermediately. . .

You're right on the mark here ^^^^^^. That picture is great, but Lan, talk to eaton and ask them about SC inlet temps. They will point out that the rotors will contact the case around 240 degrees and that will destroy both the SC and the engine its hooked to from the debris. Seriously I don't really care how you guys intercool it, but it needs to be seriously intercooled between stages. W/A A/A, it all works, I like A/A because it is a no moving part system. I like A/W because you can obtain better cooling for short runs, and ICE makes it better than 100%. However way back in the beginning of the tread I stated my goals were for rally. The last thing I want on the car is an intercooler that can fail from a minor water leak. an A/A IC will continue to function even with bullet holes in it.

I don't mind how much the thread wanders as long as it is discussing something to do with twincharging. In fact I'm all for a little rabbit trail chasing... sometimes its amazing what you'll find.


The Meth injection is needed, every serious wrc car has it, the street fuels suck out west here and even the sunoco 94 back east isn't great. I'm running a 30% spray into the SC and the other 70% I hose in at the TB, the airflow meter didn't like 600 cc/min of water/meth going through it. Kinda threw the math off.

 

[eclipsh]

Ray, I know you're running meth injection for cooling purposes too but why not run E85? It is very high octane and does very nice things for turbo cars.

I was also thinking of a system for the bypass valve that'd be quick and reliable. What about modifying a stock throttle body so that it is normally open and closes as the throttle cable is pulled? Wire that in with the factory throttle body so that at minimal throttle the air bypasses the S/C and as you add more throttle more air is directed towards the S/C and then engage the magnetic clutch. As soon as you let off the throttle the bypass opens up and the S/C clutch disengages, possibly via a easily modified TPS switch on the new TB, which could also turn the S/C on.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You'd still need a BOV but you could just let that vent since the S/C wouldn't be running below X throttle position. The diameter of the rotation arm could be changed so it opens faster/slower than the TB at the intake manifold and if it needed to open/close faster a spring could be added to the cable so it could keep pulling even after the TB was fully closed (to allow the cable free movement so the other TB can operate normally.)

It would also be very easy to make the external activation switch adjustable so you could change what throttle position the S/C was coming on at if need be.

 

[LaN-]

I'm not saying that you would have to use W/A intercoolers for this project i just can't figure out where your going to put everything and make it work without some insane piping going all over the car.

I got your PM and understand what your talking about. So we'll just have to figure out what to do as far as intercooling later.

 

[dsm-onster]

LaN-,

That's cool. Honestly, my typing does not come out delivering the same feeling as my vocal iteration, so I was more concerned about offending and yea I do get spooked about wandering in a good thread because the moderators have really cracked down (and rightly so). I am going to do away w/ the piping all together for the second (after the s/c) intercooler by running water/alky injection like RayPeters. . . That's simple to me. But, yes refilling will be a nessesity and so lot's that is not as streetable as prefered. I do it now so it will be no difference to me.

Ray, I know you're running meth injection for cooling purposes too but why not run E85? It is very high octane and does very nice things for turbo cars.

Remember, there is more E-85 required to generate the same unit torque. You'll be pushing your walbro 255 HP something terrible. I have a chart of flow vs. fuel psi for the walbro and as you can see the fuel flow goes down ad fuel psi required (Turbo boost + s/c boost + base fuel pressure) goes up.

The throttlebody bypass sounds interesting. If it can be made reliable, I think it might work very effectively. Keep in mind a large throttlebody-sized oriface is not used for oem s/c bypass applications.

Having the clutch on the s/c pulley negates the need for the bypass as there is no compression taking place (w.r.t. the supercharger).

 

[dsm-onster]

The Meth injection is needed, every serious wrc car has it, the street fuels suck out west here and even the sunoco 94 back east isn't great. I'm running a 30% spray into the SC and the other 70% I hose in at the TB, the airflow meter didn't like 600 cc/min of water/meth going through it. Kinda threw the math off.

So you're running a small nozzle before the S/C. Yo uknow I want do do this too. . . Will there be damage to the screws? Has there been? I don't think there would be much. Superchargers are built rugged. The blades are "fat"; alot of metal.

As I've been fooling w/ my math, I keep coming up with higher gains by lowering the intermediate airflow (airflow from the turbo going to the s/c) temperature than by lowering the after-supercharger airflow temps... In otherwords, if you lower your charge temps before the supercharger by X%, you'll achieve more massflow and higher hp levels then if you lower the charge temps after the supercharger by the same X%. "Inter"-cooling really makes a difference here.

So, if I can run injection pre-supercharger (post-turbo), that would be fantastic!

 

[eclipsh]

This topic has been running so long I can't recall the answer, but doesn't the SC create a nasty flow restriction when it isn't running? I don't know if it would be bad enough at low RPMs for it to be an issue though. If not then you may be correct about the bypass not being needed if the SC is clutched.

The TB bypass I envision would be cable operated and directly linked to the throttle cable so reliability would be just as good as your stock TB (i.e. very.)

 

[dsm-onster]

This topic has been running so long I can't recall the answer, but doesn't the SC create a nasty flow restriction when it isn't running? I don't know if it would be bad enough at low RPMs for it to be an issue though.

True, a stopped supecharger shouldn't flow well at all, so a clutch should make a bypass imperative.
It doesn't seams likely that it is a terrible restriction at low rpms though (i.e. where no clutching mechanism is included). . . Doesn't Ray run an open-atmosphere bypass) that blows out at idle and low flow? No air is coming in to get to the throttle body. I THINK the supercharger supplies enough air in low rpms to give to the engine plenty of air. Hense the situation of high temps due to compression of the air (adabiatic process) at light throttle and idle. There seams to be "too much" air that it compresses in the intake manifold.

I.O.W., why do superchargers have clutching mechanisms at all when a bypass with no clutch seams to work fine. . . Is it perhaps the parasitic loss of spinning it?

The TB bypass I envision would be cable operated and directly linked to the throttle cable so reliability would be just as good as your stock TB (i.e. very.)

Yes that would be reliable.

 

[RayPeters]

True, a stopped supecharger shouldn't flow well at all, so a clutch should make a bypass imperative.
It doesn't seams likely that it is a terrible restriction at low rpms though (i.e. where no clutching mechanism is included). . . Doesn't Ray run an open-atmosphere bypass) that blows out at idle and low flow? No air is coming in to get to the throttle body. I THINK the supercharger supplies enough air in low rpms to give to the engine plenty of air. Hense the situation of high temps due to compression of the air (adabiatic process) at light throttle and idle. There seams to be "too much" air that it compresses in the intake manifold.

I.O.W., why do superchargers have clutching mechanisms at all when a bypass with no clutch seams to work fine. . . Is it perhaps the parasitic loss of spinning it?


Yes that would be reliable.

I tried a TB as a bypass, and I can't get the bugger to open quickly enough. I need a soleniod to pop it open, as the diaphram can't get enough leverage to get it open against the boost pressure. All bypass valves should be poppet style. These can be opened with the assistance of boost pressure and held closed the same way. I'll get some pics this afternoon of what I tried so you guys have something to work with.

You are right, there is always more air volume than the engine can use coming from the SC. If we unclutch the SC the engine will draw through but the rotors just coast along, there is a minor restriction, but if the sc clutch is set-up right, it will be engaged whenever there is high engine demand so the used will never feel that restriction.

LaN - Can you get me some good closeup pics of the SC clutch, I want to see if it can be adaptted to the GM M62.

As for the Mods, I would hope at this point the thread is mature enough that the 4 of us can wander around a little without getting ourselves in trouble. I'd like to keep all this connected together instead of having to poke around in 10 different threads to remember what we were talking about.


The Meth before the SC is great, it seals the rotors for an improvment in effiency, at also cools all that metal which helps some more, and they suggested not running 100% meth because tha aluminum is cast, but I'm going to coat the cases and rotors on the next rebuild then I can do what I want.

 

[LaN-]

Here are all the pics.

The supercharger will sit up as high as it can go without hitting the intake manifold, i just couldn't hold it up and take pictures.

Let me know if you need anything specific

 

[eclipsh]

Ray, what about the cable method of operating the TB-bypass I'm suggesting? Is it not a flexible enough system? It wouldn't take much to make a smaller rotating mechanism for the cable to ride on and get it opening/closing very quickly. If you wanted it to move with something besides the throttle you'd have to figure something else out though.

SO.... default open with a spring or some slack in the cable so it closes & turns on the SC once you reach X throttle position and snaps back open once you let off the throttle (shifting, cruising etc.) and disables the SC. Good/bad and why?

 

[RayPeters]

A cable might do the trick, I think I'm headed towards electric solenoid operation as I can open/close it whenever I need to via the ECU. The SC will continue to flow even unclutched, it doesn't stop rotating, i've driven my car around for several days without the SC belt and once the turbo spools it feels pretty normal, I'm not sure if you'll need a fancy diverter valve around the SC or not. I'd try just flowing through it all the time first and see if the dyno shows a big enough loss to justify the complication. Even at idle without the belt the SC is turning there is little friction in it, 6 bearings and 2 gears.

As it stands now the SC is effective from idle to 2000 rpm, then the turbo is spooled and should stay that way. A big turbo would take higher RPM to stay wound up, but you want it as early as you can get it.

I got my miniDV camera back from the shop last week, I might head out and shoot some vids to try to capture just how this works in the real world. I'll make some calls and see if I can get on the runway out here or something, I want pavement for the demo, dirt is so rough and it spins the wheels so easily .

Wild hair idea here, but maybe we can all get together sometime, maybe the DSM Shootout or something, compare notes... I think I've got a system that is ready for a 3000 mile trip .


Lan, So if you take that little bolt out of the clutch, does it just slide off the shaft? I'd love to know what size the shaft is, there are 2 styles and if I need the other one I'd order it when I rebuild. Thanks for the picsc, it looks like the bomb for a no A/C system. I'm liking my A/C here in PHX its 90 degrees outside as I type this.

 

[eclipsh]

It sounds like you're right about trying this without the added complications in it first. I'd certainly want to do it with a clutch in it though.

Previously you were having all sorts of issues with the fuel maps. If the S/C were only pushing 6psi from say, 2500 rpms and left running with the turbo up until redline, how do you think it would be to tune? I'm limited to a SAFC, FPR & EPROM chip (if I can find anyone to program such an odd setup accurately.)

If I try this setup it won't be until late this year or next year since my project this summer is my wide body design/fab, body and suspension work.

As far as a meet-up, Ludachris is hoping to get a Tuners event at the soon-to-be new track east of Denver. That'd be fairly central from Michigan and Phoenix. I'm only about 6-7 hours from Phoenix myself so if I do try this I'd be happy to meet up and scrub out the gremlins.

 

[dsm-onster]

I think I'm headed towards electric solenoid operation as I can open/close it whenever I need to via the ECU.

You mean a solenoid valve, right? These get expensive once you get to a fitting size that would likely be needed for proper operation. Not to mention the high heat requirements. . . I've been looking at Mcmaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com), and have been rather discouraged because of the requirements (like minimum differential pressure, max heat, etc) and price. Maybe a LARGE train horn solenoid valve mught work they do operate at 12V i think. And, they can be had w/ 1/2 to 3/4 inch orifaces. . . I'm not sure.

As it stands now the SC is effective from idle to 2000 rpm, then the turbo is spooled and should stay that way. A big turbo would take higher RPM to stay wound up, but you want it as early as you can get it.

200 rpms! you know, I had and sold an 18G it had a fantastick mid range for a "small turbo". First, you've proven to all the naysayers of the 18G that it can flow great, IF you have the volume displacement.

Wild hair idea here, but maybe we can all get together sometime, maybe the DSM Shootout or something, compare notes... I think I've got a system that is ready for a 3000 mile trip .

This would be awesome. I live 2 miles fro the atlantic ocean . Maybe I can put together some funds and meet up. Thank God for dsmtuners.com.

 

[LaN-]

I'll take the clutch apart and take more pics.

I to wonder if the S/C will kill itself if i take the valve out of the question. I think i'll run the car normal without it and see how it does then put it in if needed. There will be a vacuum created by the turbo so you might not even need it.

I'm game for meeting up in the future. Just tell me when and where (i just hope my car can make it.)