Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[RayPeters]

It sounds like you're right about trying this without the added complications in it first. I'd certainly want to do it with a clutch in it though.

Previously you were having all sorts of issues with the fuel maps. If the S/C were only pushing 6psi from say, 2500 rpms and left running with the turbo up until redline, how do you think it would be to tune? I'm limited to a SAFC, FPR & EPROM chip (if I can find anyone to program such an odd setup accurately.)

If I try this setup it won't be until late this year or next year since my project this summer is my wide body design/fab, body and suspension work.

As far as a meet-up, Ludachris is hoping to get a Tuners event at the soon-to-be new track east of Denver. That'd be fairly central from Michigan and Phoenix. I'm only about 6-7 hours from Phoenix myself so if I do try this I'd be happy to meet up and scrub out the gremlins.

I've got the fuel map stuff worked out now, I use the disassembled code to burn my chips, I like working in english rather than Hex. Anything is possible then. If you want to zero your SAFC, send me your corrections at each rpm range, and I can update a chip with your injector size, and fuel table corrections. chips are cheap and can be reused. If you need a socket in your ecu that is doable as well. We do all of this stuff for the industrial electronics at work, so I have access to all the cool tools .

Tuning isn't so bad now that I understand just how critical the timing is to prevent detonation at the low rpm's. the real kicker is that 6psi turns into 20+ by 2500 rpm and the ecu wasn't designed with that in mind. Its timing curves are too agressive and it needs to add more fuel.

I'd be up for a denver trip. Shoot I might even be up for a long weekend trip just to check out your area. 7 hrs isn't so bad, I use to spend 300 days a year on the road doing shows.

I'm headed down the suspension rebuild road, I'm going solid bushing everywhere, I want it to feel like my crx did.... like an extension of my mind. I'd like to hear what you have planned in that area, maybe take that into a PM or something?

Ray

 

[dsm-onster]

Getting that really laggy turbo and having spool like a stock 14B sounds so appealing now doesn't it . . . no monkeying w/ the lower timing maps.

Some more about electronic bypass. . .

I'm having a heck of a time finding an affordable solution. I am seeing like 200-400 bones for a solenoid valve w/a a zero minimum pressure differential that is probably barely large enoug to handle the flow and of course is normally open (closes when charged). Nevermind getting one that operates at 12VDC. I've jsut accepted taht I'll have to buy a power inverter if I get a solenoid valve like what I've seen.

But, I'm an ol' cheap scotsman. So i've been kicking about perhaps using several (like 5-8) EGR solenoids in "parallel". They may only have 1/8" orifaces, but 8 would probably flow like a 3/4" oriface (which I am assuming s probably OK). These solenoids are quick acting. I beieve they need no differential pressure to operate correctly. As well, They are designed for under the hood operation and a long life of on-off-on. Also our DSM versions are normally open (this would negate the need for a relay to invert the signal). Also if these come across in shortage, a fuel pressure solenoid of the DSM veriaty is similar excep that it is diverter which simply means that one would need to cap the port that is normally close and jsut use the normally open port and the inlet. DSM guys ditch these all the time when going to adjustable FPRs for various reasons... So I've got two solenoid valves already, All I need is 6 more !

I can wire them to activate according to my nitrous control window in DSMLink. . .

A vacuum tree w/ a large inlet will be required. One that will have wnough individual ports to accommodate so many valves. I know dividing one large diameter flow into smaller diamet flows that when summed equal the original large diamter lowers flow rate a bit (I.E. single 3" after the turbo flows better than dual 2.5"). But at this point adding more and more EGR solenoids is still far, far more affordable... I'm really trying to do something that is duplicable for almost any one. . .

 

[JOEY A]

Weres the vid

 

[RayPeters]

Weres the vid

Didn't get the car out this weekend, no place legal to run it like that... Easter weekend.

Sorry,

 

[RayPeters]

Getting that really laggy turbo and having spool like a stock 14B sounds so appealing now doesn't it . . . no monkeying w/ the lower timing maps.

Some more about electronic bypass. . .

I'm having a heck of a time finding an affordable solution. I am seeing like 200-400 bones for a solenoid valve w/a a zero minimum pressure differential that is probably barely large enoug to handle the flow and of course is normally open (closes when charged). Nevermind getting one that operates at 12VDC. I've jsut accepted taht I'll have to buy a power inverter if I get a solenoid valve like what I've seen.

But, I'm an ol' cheap scotsman. So i've been kicking about perhaps using several (like 5-8) EGR solenoids in "parallel". They may only have 1/8" orifaces, but 8 would probably flow like a 3/4" oriface (which I am assuming s probably OK). These solenoids are quick acting. I beieve they need no differential pressure to operate correctly. As well, They are designed for under the hood operation and a long life of on-off-on. Also our DSM versions are normally open (this would negate the need for a relay to invert the signal). Also if these come across in shortage, a fuel pressure solenoid of the DSM veriaty is similar excep that it is diverter which simply means that one would need to cap the port that is normally close and jsut use the normally open port and the inlet. DSM guys ditch these all the time when going to adjustable FPRs for various reasons... So I've got two solenoid valves already, All I need is 6 more !

I can wire them to activate according to my nitrous control window in DSMLink. . .

A vacuum tree w/ a large inlet will be required. One that will have wnough individual ports to accommodate so many valves. I know dividing one large diameter flow into smaller diamet flows that when summed equal the original large diamter lowers flow rate a bit (I.E. single 3" after the turbo flows better than dual 2.5"). But at this point adding more and more EGR solenoids is still far, far more affordable... I'm really trying to do something that is duplicable for almost any one. . .

Umm I'm thinking this may not be the best idea I've heard today......its an area thing...
(1/16 *1/16)*3.1415=0.0122718462890625 square inches of flow area.
1G BOV ~ 0.7853981625 sq inches of flow area
Number of 1/8" valves needed to match 1G BOV -- drum roll please ... 64
You're gonna need a bigger alternator to turn all them on at once.

I want a short stroke air cylinder is all, with a decent diameter say 5/8, and a 2-3 inch stroke. That should have enough stroke and power to open the TB fast enough. Although an aftermarket BOV can be modded to do what we need. Loose almost all the spring and then vent the balance port to atmosphere and you should be good to go.

 

[dsm-onster]

Umm I'm thinking this may not be the best idea I've heard today......its an area thing...
(1/16 *1/16)*3.1415=0.0122718462890625 square inches of flow area.
1G BOV ~ 0.7853981625 sq inches of flow area
Number of 1/8" valves needed to match 1G BOV -- drum roll please ... 64
You're gonna need a bigger alternator to turn all them on at once.

I want a short stroke air cylinder is all, with a decent diameter say 5/8, and a 2-3 inch stroke. That should have enough stroke and power to open the TB fast enough. Although an aftermarket BOV can be modded to do what we need. Loose almost all the spring and then vent the balance port to atmosphere and you should be good to go.

Yea, I'm getting pretty frustrated. It was a 'desperation idea' .

 

[JOEY A]

Didn't get the car out this weekend, no place legal to run it like that... Easter weekend.

Sorry,

How about we just get a reving vid with under hood shoots etc?

 

[eclipsh]

That vid is in the old thread (I think). I know it is posted up somewhere in a Twin Charger thread (there are only two but I don't have the time to dig for that post this morning.)

 

[RayPeters]

How about we just get a reving vid with under hood shoots etc?

Ok, I'll try to help you out. Here's a video of the car actually being used,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sHRcB9M7PU


A shot of just the datalog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K1fq0OGacY

And from the other thread, some idling and revving of the earlier version.
Engine compartment video

 

[marcmsj]

I don't know much about autocrossing, but is the suspension supposed to be the bouncy? it looked so especially there at the end of the first vid.

 

[RayPeters]

I don't know much about autocrossing, but is the suspension supposed to be the bouncy? it looked so especially there at the end of the first vid.

No, you are right the car should have been planted better. I like soft suspension but good damping, I set up for smooth gravel and there were some big holes etc in that track.

The suspension took it a little rough that day. The right front strut failed in a spectacular display of oil on the second run. The video was the third run. Also when you watch the video closely you'll see that HUGE hole entering the far back turn. As good as my struts were, that hit hard enough to turn the wipers on.

FWIW : This is Rallycross. The event is simmilar to autocross but it is on any surface BUT tarmac.

 

[eclipsh]

So I was discussing this mod with my roommate yesterday and tallying up the bill for how I have been planning to do it based on our conversations.

GM Supercharger - $100-150 used on ebay
GM MAFT - $200 with MAF off classifieds here
FMIC - $150-250
Piping - $?

Plus other odds and ends.

I quickly decided this was out of my price range for a while.

Then last night/this morning I realized that I don't need a GM MAFT to do this. I think we've all been going about this the hard way, at least from my perspective.

So my new plan is: Use my 3gMAF and BOV in a stock like setup. Run the turbo to a Supra SMIC on the driver's side (free from a generous friend), then back to the supercharger from there. From the supercharger head up front to the stock SMIC and back to the T/B with a recirced BOV exactly the way it is now. Then clutch the SC and tune it however it needs to be done, either via throttle input, rpm, vacuum or all of the above. It is cheap, simple and clean to install. It would also be easy to swap in a FMIC later on if so desired (I've been iffy on that since they block airflow to the radiator.) Or, run the Air/Water setup if that floats your boat.

That brings my cost down to the $100-150 SC, piping and an electronic gizmo for the SC clutch (EPROM chip from Ray?) to make it work.

Any thoughts?

 

[marcmsj]

No, you are right the car should have been planted better. I like soft suspension but good damping, I set up for smooth gravel and there were some big holes etc in that track.

The suspension took it a little rough that day. The right front strut failed in a spectacular display of oil on the second run. The video was the third run. Also when you watch the video closely you'll see that HUGE hole entering the far back turn. As good as my struts were, that hit hard enough to turn the wipers on.

FWIW : This is Rallycross. The event is simmilar to autocross but it is on any surface BUT tarmac.

I didn't mean to deviate from the topic at hand, but thanks for that info. I must have been really tired that day ### I really messed up that post haha.

But yeah, I knew it was rallycross

 

[LaN-]

So I was discussing this mod with my roommate yesterday and tallying up the bill for how I have been planning to do it based on our conversations.

GM Supercharger - $100-150 used on ebay
GM MAFT - $200 with MAF off classifieds here
FMIC - $150-250
Piping - $?

Plus other odds and ends.

I quickly decided this was out of my price range for a while.

Then last night/this morning I realized that I don't need a GM MAFT to do this. I think we've all been going about this the hard way, at least from my perspective.

So my new plan is: Use my 3gMAF and BOV in a stock like setup. Run the turbo to a Supra SMIC on the driver's side (free from a generous friend), then back to the supercharger from there. From the supercharger head up front to the stock SMIC and back to the T/B with a recirced BOV exactly the way it is now. Then clutch the SC and tune it however it needs to be done, either via throttle input, rpm, vacuum or all of the above. It is cheap, simple and clean to install. It would also be easy to swap in a FMIC later on if so desired (I've been iffy on that since they block airflow to the radiator.) Or, run the Air/Water setup if that floats your boat.

That brings my cost down to the $100-150 SC, piping and an electronic gizmo for the SC clutch (EPROM chip from Ray?) to make it work.

Any thoughts?

Where are you going to put the supercharger?

I'd say just get the FMIC, don't worry about it blocking the air, i haven't had any issues with mine.

When your ready to go ahead with all of this i can hook you up with the intercoolers i sell.

 

[eclipsh]

I was planning on putting the SC back where the A/C pump currently isn't. It really seems like the only good place to put one without a custom intake manifold.

I'm planning to move away from AutoX and move to road courses so cooling the engine does become an issue. I'll be putting on a body kit and some ABS ducting to try and help with that but I don't want to fight myself by adding more heat and obstruction in front of the radiator. I may end up running dual Supra SMICs with this setup at some point when I have extra cash.

 

[dsm-onster]

So my new plan is: Use my 3gMAF and BOV in a stock like setup. Run the turbo to a Supra SMIC on the driver's side (free from a generous friend), then back to the supercharger from there. From the supercharger head up front to the stock SMIC and back to the T/B with a recirced BOV exactly the way it is now. Then clutch the SC and tune it however it needs to be done, either via throttle input, rpm, vacuum or all of the above. It is cheap, simple and clean to install. It would also be easy to swap in a FMIC later on if so desired (I've been iffy on that since they block airflow to the radiator.) Or, run the Air/Water setup if that floats your boat.

That brings my cost down to the $100-150 SC, piping and an electronic gizmo for the SC clutch (EPROM chip from Ray?) to make it work.

Any thoughts?

It shows through the calculations of the adiabatic process by both chargers that putting the better cooling front mount between the turbo and supercharger and the less efficient sidemount would yield more mass flow (CFM at standard temp and pressure). Negating pressure drop for symplicity, running 20 psi, and ASSUMING your Front mount is 80% efficient in its location and your supra sidemount is 65-70% efficient in its location; you would gain 12 CFM of Mass Flow and consequently see approximately 10 more HP. Where water/alky injection is used before the supercharger (like in Ray's setup) with which HIGH "intercooler" efficiencies are attainable by the cooling affect of the injection mist, the difference in mass flow becomes even more pronounced.

Here's the math below. Your initial intake temp is your atmopheric temp (ambient). Calculate the adiabatic process for the turbo using the turbo compressor efficiency (I chose 65%) and intercooler efficiency after the turbo but before the supercharger(in your case your front mount efficiency). Then take that "temp out" and plug it into the adiabatic process again, but use intercooler efficiency after the supercharger (in your case your supra sidemount efficiency) and the supercharger compressor efficiency (I chose 55%). Then take your final "temp out" number and plug it into CFM formula. and there to the HP formula. Do ALL this twice swapping intercooler efficiencies. And you'll see the difference.

A note: Remember Ray already suggested that the MAP in the manifold is the sum of boost psi from the turbo and atmosperic pressure in psi TIMES the pressure ratio offered by the supercharger (in this case 1.6 if we use Ray's same diameter pulley). All calculations are assuming sea level altitude (14.67 psi atmosheric).

Another note : the adiabatic proccess debunks the widely accepted misunderstanding that 'a cold air intake yields no positive results for a charged engine because the air is heated up so much my the charger anyway'. Do the math and you'll see . . .

 

[LaN-]

your making my head hurt.

 

[dsm-onster]

I do all my math once and put it in a spreadsheet. Wiping brain matter from my computer screen is no way to enjoy a good thread.

 

[eclipsh]

Like I said, I was planning on running the more efficient Supra SMIC between the turbo and the SC and the less efficient stock SMIC with larger piping after the SC.

I also intend to run ABS sheeting under the whole front bumper so all incoming air is forced through the radiator and both SMICs.

Aside from IC efficiencies, what about the rest of the setup? Yes, no? Why?

 

[dsm-onster]

Like I said, I was planning on running the more efficient Supra SMIC between the turbo and the SC and the less efficient stock SMIC with larger piping after the SC.

I also intend to run ABS sheeting under the whole front bumper so all incoming air is forced through the radiator and both SMICs.

Aside from IC efficiencies, what about the rest of the setup? Yes, no? Why?

I be stupid . I mis-read your post. What a waste of typing and more. . .

If you're running dual intercoolers why not do a "V-mount" set up. The supra guys are getting huge success w/ this!!! I am think of this myself... Although Ray is getting away w/ one intercooler and water/alky injection after the s/c... Other than the concern w/ the stock IC flow, I'd say that such a set up would yield fine results...

 

[RayPeters]

I be stupid . I mis-read your post. What a waste of typing and more. . .

If you're running dual intercoolers why not do a "V-mount" set up. The supra guys are getting huge success w/ this!!! I am think of this myself... Although Ray is getting away w/ one intercooler and water/alky injection after the s/c... Other than the concern w/ the stock IC flow, I'd say that such a set up would yield fine results...

Guys, you need to re-read this tread more carefully. I am running 2 intercoolers AND meth/water injection. The sidemount I am using is bigger than the factory unit, ala dejontools fine looking peice.

Detonation on pump fuels at these boost pressures is almost unavoidable so everything matters. I'm bringing my meth online at 15psi and it has eliminated my knock issues at 18 deg timing @5500 rpm to redline.

And yes sheeting and ducting the front bumper is a great idea, everything helps.

Ok LaN - What's this about intercoolers you sell, PM me some info please .
I got a wild hair......

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

And what do you sell Ray? Or is it a no no to post on this thread?

 

[LaN-]

I've been selling these kits for awhile now

http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=56632&cat=7

If you want you can read all about it here.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241321

I'd PM you the info but maybe the others want to know.



Ray about the side mount your running, you just have the pipe going to the back of the intake mani right? What stops the S/C from going straight into the engine instead of the intercooler? There is no divider inside the intake mani correct?

 

[dsm-onster]

Guys, you need to re-read this tread more carefully. I am running 2 intercoolers AND meth/water injection. The sidemount I am using is bigger than the factory unit, ala dejontools fine looking peice.

Ah! that's right. You mentioned two intercoolers in the very first post of this thread.

 

[TRBOBLU]

It shows through the calculations of the adiabatic process by both chargers that putting the better cooling front mount between the turbo and supercharger and the less efficient sidemount would yield more mass flow (CFM at standard temp and pressure). Negating pressure drop for symplicity, running 20 psi, and ASSUMING your Front mount is 80% efficient in its location and your supra sidemount is 65-70% efficient in its location; you would gain 12 CFM of Mass Flow and consequently see approximately 10 more HP. Where water/alky injection is used before the supercharger (like in Ray's setup) with which HIGH "intercooler" efficiencies are attainable by the cooling affect of the injection mist, the difference in mass flow becomes even more pronounced.

Here's the math below. Your initial intake temp is your atmopheric temp (ambient). Calculate the adiabatic process for the turbo using the turbo compressor efficiency (I chose 65%) and intercooler efficiency after the turbo but before the supercharger(in your case your front mount efficiency). Then take that "temp out" and plug it into the adiabatic process again, but use intercooler efficiency after the supercharger (in your case your supra sidemount efficiency) and the supercharger compressor efficiency (I chose 55%). Then take your final "temp out" number and plug it into CFM formula. and there to the HP formula. Do ALL this twice swapping intercooler efficiencies. And you'll see the difference.

A note: Remember Ray already suggested that the MAP in the manifold is the sum of boost psi from the turbo and atmosperic pressure in psi TIMES the pressure ratio offered by the supercharger (in this case 1.6 if we use Ray's same diameter pulley). All calculations are assuming sea level altitude (14.67 psi atmosheric).

Another note : the adiabatic proccess debunks the widely accepted misunderstanding that 'a cold air intake yields no positive results for a charged engine because the air is heated up so much my the charger anyway'. Do the math and you'll see . . .

mmmmmmmmm...... Reminds me of my good ol Thermodynamics class.