Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[RayPeters]

You need to pull out all the piping and just go with the clutch setup. There is no need to have hte S/C on once the turbo is spooled. There is no power increase.


You need the turbo to pull all the air in. Send it normally to the intake mani, but Y the UICP and have it go to the S/C also. Hook a clutch up and have it hooked up to a boost solenoid.

If you got all the fuel maps and timing fixed within the ECU since its not use to seeing boost so low thats by far the best way to install this setup.

That's an interesting idea, but explain to me how you are going to keep the high pressure air from going back down the y tube of the uicp? If the SC is making boost and the turbo isn't, there is NOTHING to stop it from back flowing the compressor. And then lets assume we do get to spool the turbo, now you have the reverse problem. The SC is unclutched and is now just a huge boost leak. The fancy valves that would be involved to make this possible will require extensive control to make this driveable, but the complication would be messy to say the least.

 

[LaN-]

That's an interesting idea, but explain to me how you are going to keep the high pressure air from going back down the y tube of the uicp? If the SC is making boost and the turbo isn't, there is NOTHING to stop it from back flowing the compressor. And then lets assume we do get to spool the turbo, now you have the reverse problem. The SC is unclutched and is now just a huge boost leak. The fancy valves that would be involved to make this possible will require extensive control to make this driveable, but the complication would be messy to say the least.

THIS WILL BE LONG AND MY GRAMMER / SPELLING SUCKS.....................................figured i might as well say that before you start






The Y is so your pulling from the same source as the turbo. That way it doesnt throw your reading off.

You want the MAS to read all the air coming into the system so you put your MAF before that Y and have turbo push air into the intake mani and have the s/c pull air in. The only way the pressure can go backwards is if it goes through the throttle body.

Remember the Y is the air supply for the S/C.............whats stopping the S/C from going back out the throttle body right now, if the turbo isnt making any boost? It takes the easiest path and honestly if your at full throttle going into the engine is going to be its first place.







I look at it like this the entire setup as simulating you having the worlds best turbo. It spools instantly and gives you a bunch of power. Forget the entire twincharger part because that just complicates everything.

Setup the S/C without an intercooler, have it on a clutch system that shuts off at a specific boost level. By that time the turbo will be spooled and takes over the power needs.

I'd almost wanna say get rid of hte MAFT and just get a normal 2g mas. Use that Y so both intakes feed on the same supply. This will allow you to have a really good reading on how much air is coming into the engine and honestly i don't think it will be a huge restriction.

Remember all you want to do is find that sweet spot of boost. How much boost the S/C has to make until the turbo can take over without you ever knowing. This honestly should be a low number.........we'll say 6psi, and it doesn't have to maintain that 6 PSI at all. Once its there the turbo should be ready to take over.

The other issue would be the ECU's fuel maps, but again stop thinking about the twincharger idea and just picture you have the best turbo that spools the second you hit the gas. All the ECU cares about is how much fuel to add so you would have to modify the fuel maps and timing to allow the ECU to compensate for boost so low.

The only problem i see is the Y will bypass the throttle body. So you would either have to move the throttle body back alittle and make the Y behind it. Or switch over to a speed density setup with a MAP sensor and have the S/C pull air from the atmosphere. The map sensor would be great for the entire setup but its a pain in the ass.

Also our cars produce boost and dont need the map so why would having the boost so low create a demand for it?


Depending how well space is i think you could extend the flange out on the intake mani and create a Y behind the throttle body. This will provide air for the S/C without it bypassing the throttle body.

With the clutch setup you should have no heat issues because the supercharger will shut off before it causes any issues.

It sounds like you very well could of already resolved the issues with the fuel maps and timing, but i would imagine there is more to be done.

There is more to be said and i know everything i just mentioned may not be 100% right. Its simple a theroy.

PLEASE comment on the above.

 

[eclipsh]

Lan, I think you are a little confused or that you'd better draw a diagram of what you are trying to describe.

Ray is correct, given the setup that you are describing the air would backflow badly. It would need a valve shutting first one, then the other side of the Y off, a big PITA to control. The easiest path issue is complicated because the air is pressurized. It will take EVERY path it can to escape, including backflow.

If you read Ray's last thread you'd also know that the twin charger set up in tandem gains boost at exponential rates. Every psi that is compressed by the first charger is then recompressed by the second leading to very high boost levels very quickly (hence two seperate intercoolers in his setup). Thus having both running at the same time (with the turbo first, given his latest posts) gives him more power and efficiency than turning one then the other off. Each charger can perform less work individually which should keep the heat from compression down, aiding the intercoolers and alleviating heatsoak.

All that is part of why it would also be difficult to use the cyclone intake I was toying with earlier in this thread. It makes things far more complicated and probably less efficient.

 

[LaN-]

Right now what is stopping the pressurized air coming from the S/C to go backwards and out the other side of the throttle body?

I'll draw out a diagram later but this is basically what i invision for how everything would flow.

You will have 1 entry point for all the air coming into the system. This is the normal intake on any DSM. I'll try to use bullets for the remaining - see below

- air comes in via the intake and gets measured by the MAS
- Goes to the turbo
- IC
- UICP
- Throttle body
- AFTER THE THROTTLE BODY is where the Y i was talking about earier would be
- One part of the Y goes into the intake mani
- other goes to the intake of the supercharger


This is basically how his first setup was besides the Y. Which makes me wonder how you where able to allow the S/C to pull air from the atomsphere and not be really lean. Where was all the air coming in from the S/C being compensated at? How did the ECU know it was there?

The Y that i am speaking of is simply there so the ECU knows that air is being pulled into the engine. It is behind the throttle body so any pressure can either go into the engine or outside the intake mani into that Y and back into the S/C.

Once the turbo takes over it will take the easiest route and go straight into the engine.


I understand what your saying about the compressed air getting compressed again and making more power but.......why bother. If you want to make power just put a bigger turbo on the car and use the S/C to spool it.

We all know you can make INSANE amount of power on a turbo, but in return you have spool issues. Well we solved the spool issue with the S/C. Now use the turbo for the power that comes with it.


Rally racers only need turbos and anti-lag to make all the power and make it avalible to them when they need it. All your really doing is using the S/C in place of the anti-lag to make the power avalible to you.

On another note me and Ray may be looking at this from 2 different sides. I would use this setup to spool my turbo ASAP. He sounds like he wants more power by using both chargers.

I'm not saying his is wrong but when you are looking at it keep both sides in mind and tell me if you think mine would work also. It may not work for creating more power with the S/C but it will accomplish my goal by elimnating lag.

 

[RayPeters]

I need a picture. I think I understand the concept now, but I'm still not sure. Let's see your skill in paint .

I got the fuel and ign timing under control now, so now just down to the hardware.

 

[eclipsh]

Lan, the picture below is your setup as I understand it.

You are still going to have problems with the air wanting to back flow given your design ideas. There is no air pressure stopping it from going back out the throttle body. Ray's system works because there is no "Y" in the system. The air is kept from back flowing because each system forces it further on.

Your other problem will be the super charger cannibalizing it's own airflow. It will try to suck air from it's own output and just work in circles.

 

[RayPeters]

That's what I was seeing as well, I'll hold judgment until I see LaN's drawing skills.

Sweet artwork I like tha arrows

 

[eclipsh]

Adobe Illustrator rocks

 

[LaN-]

Well after alot of surfing and thinking i came up with this.



First off i found this and you guys might wanna take a look at it.

http://68.60.113.34/twincharger.htm

After looking that over i started to think about having the system be setup like the picture below.


Read that entire link and see how he used the 1 way bypass valve when the S/C shut off. I gave this some thought and just didnt like the idea of having a 1 way valve so i did some more research and found you could get a electronically activated butterfly valve. That would open when a specifc boost level is reached Or the S/C shuts off.

This would resolve the back flow issues.

This complicates things a bit further which i don't like but honestly its not that big of a deal.

You'd have to extend the throttle body flange out to make room for the Y but doing this you would have to relocate your battery to compensate for the space issues.

Again the other alternative is to switch everything over to speed density and have the supercharger pull air directly from the atmosphere which eliminates this entire Y.


I'll be looking into whats involved to switch everything over to speed density but right not thats all i got as far as the Y setup. Maybe it won't work at all......................my brain is fried i'm going to bed

 

[turbo addict]

I do love this idea of the twin charge set up. I have been thinking about doing the same for my drag 2g. Ray I was wondering if you have tried going down on the SC pulley and running less boost through it, maybe in the 4-6psi range. This will give you enough energy to get the turbo going and take the second intercooler and piping out of the loop. I think that you said that you must run a restriction late in the set up was this right. If you are looking for only 400hp the SC at low boost and the 18g should work well.

I have alot of time to think of dumb ideas at my mindless job (lawn service). Other approaches to your goal would be a 2.3 or 2.4l with the 18g. Another thing that I am working on is a poor mans' vnt turbo. I am going to try this on my gt42r when it comes in and I finish the engine this year. But basically you take a divided turbine housing and 2 wastegates block off one side (the outside) of the turbine inlet so that all the exhaust from the manifold goes through the inside of the turbine inlet. Then you set the first wastegate at a lower boost (5-9psi for pump gas) to dump into the outer side of the turbine inlet (the blocked off side). Then when your total boost is achieved (say 18-22psi again for pump) you dump the other wastegate to the atmosphere. Fast spool up and you can use a bigger turbine housing than you would normally so you have more top end. For your application I would say look at either a evo9 turbo or even a 50trim t3t4 with the new divided t3 turbine housing a 78a/r.
Anything I can do to help or give ideas I'm there. I love reinventing the wheel. really (I am a big smart a$$ but am serious this time)

 

[topnotchgsx]

^^^^^^^^Can you come up with a diagram in paint or something. I think i will understand much easier if I see it on paper. I am very interested in that idea. Maybe it is simple and I am just too tired to grasp it. HAHA.

Keylan

 

[RayPeters]

Thanks for the drawing, I was seeing it right, the butterfly valve is in the works, but finding what I need might take a little bit. Although I do have a couple of DSM TB laying around that could be activated with a diaphram to achieve the same result. Oh yay even more crap stuffed under the hood. Seriously though, the system is now back to the way it was in version 1. In this order: Turbo, FMIC, SC, SMIC, BOV, MAF, TB, Engine. I'm going to make this layout work for the event this weekend, then I'll visit this new bypass idea, the SC clutch is gonna be a total PITA though as there isn't much room near the SC pulley. If anyone knows of a 3" clutch, I'm all ears.

The restriction I was speaking of is no longer an issue. If the Supercharger is first in line it runs out of air at ~15psi.

I'd like to try it on a 2G, but there is even less room in the engine compartment, its gonna take some thinking on how to make it all fit.

Final note, I might go to an even bigger SC pulley if I can find one, but this is on hold while I search for a clutch type pulley.

 

[LaN-]

Ray draw up a picture of your before and after setup's if you could please.




I have some new ideas, but no time to post right now. I'll post them when i get off work.

 

[turbo addict]

^^^^^^^^Can you come up with a diagram in paint or something. I think i will understand much easier if I see it on paper. I am very interested in that idea. Maybe it is simple and I am just too tired to grasp it. HAHA.

Keylan

for my poormans vnt or for their supercharger setup?

 

[LaN-]

This is my new setup.

- It will use the clutch on the supercharger
- it mounts the Supercharger where the A/C compressor is, so either a centrical s/c will need to be used or a smaller roots type. I think the eaton M45 will fit where the A/C compressor would go.
- It will use an electronic butterfly valve that will be hooked up to a S/C clutch and a vacuum switch.

- I would mount a flange on the back of the S/C and have it go into a pipe instead of going straight into the intake mani. I've seen this done on VW's with roots s/c's.

When the S/C shuts off the valve opens allowing the turbo to flow properly. Or when the car is under vacuum the valve will open so it doesnt screw up the idle.

You could put the valve anywhere on the UICP so fitment would be alittle easier.

This will allow you to use the stock MAS but you will have to recalculate all of the fuel / timing tables.

You should be able to keep your stock intake manifold. As long as the S/C will fit where the A/C compessor was.

I know there is alot more i have to explain but i'm a little brain fried right now.

Please comment on what i have said.


I got all my info from this page.

http://68.60.113.34/twincharger.htm

 

[LaN-]

This would be the perfect S/C

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/98-0...emQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ003QQitemZ130083297122

the dimensions are 11 1/2 inch long, 7 inches wide and 5 inches tall. (cant be that much bigger then the A/C Compressor)

And is has a built in clutch.

These could possibly work also

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/88-9...tegoryZ33741QQihZ003QQitemZ130085082770QQrdZ1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Volk...ryZ33741QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Point it so the output is pushing toward hte firewall, have a flange welded on and route a pipe up to the throttle body.

 

[eclipsh]

That makes a lot more sense, is fairly simple and could work

Nice

 

[LaN-]

I did some rought measurements with what i would find online.

It looks like the S/C should have no problem fitting where the A/C compressor goes. You would have the pipes route in the same space where he has the pipe going to the back of the intake mani.

I would get rid of that bracket on the back of the intake mani, and with the measurements i have i dont think the rear engine mount will get in the way at all.

Now i gotta find out what valve that one guy used and if i can find a cheap electronic butterfly valve.

 

[somdturbo]

Well bored here in my hotel room on travel for work i stumbled on this thread. very cool find. I tried to plan it out how it could work in my mind, then i noticed there is an easier way. i will post it anyways but i sort of wasted my time.

edit, cant post since its too big even after i resized it.
here is the one that shot me down from an earlier posted link, this should work and appears to be the best use. Only once intercooler and such.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It also appears this could be fabbed up fairly easily, the only difference is the s/c and 1 way valve between the fmic and the turbo... someone give this a go

 

[LaN-]

Look at the link i posted.........thats the same picture.

My design is basically the same also.

 

[somdturbo]

edit, cant post since its too big even after i resized it.
here is the one that shot me down from an earlier posted link, this should work and appears to be the best use. \

if u notice the bold above....
thanks captain obvious, i posted it to make the forum a little more user friendly and give my input.

 

[eclipsh]

No need to be rude. Please don't take away from the quality this thread has maintained thus far. It was a misunderstanding due to some poor communication. Leave it at that.

 

[RayPeters]

I'm going to look into this after this weekend. This was in some of my original notes, but discarded due to complexity. It would appear that it is no more complex than the difficulties I'm now experiencing although I modded my bypass valve and I think I have all current issues licked. Thanks to everyone for the discussion, wish me luck at the RallyX, I'll be taking photos and doing a writeup. I think I may have a source for the bypass valve, I'll see if I'm as clever as I think I am.

 

[LaN-]

if u notice the bold above....
thanks captain obvious, i posted it to make the forum a little more user friendly and give my input.

yeah sorry about that................that was me after working for 17 hours

 

[LaN-]

Well i finally got the balls to go outside in the cold and take some measurements.

Looks like i could fit the SLK supercharger will fit where the A/C compressor goes no problem. With the A/C lines out of the way there shouldn't be an issue running 2 2 inch pipes down there also.

I might have to relocate my battery and get rid of my ABS but considering my ABS is trashed and i want to get rid of it anyway this will give me a good reason to.

Now its time to really study how to alter the fuel maps / timing maps correctly.

Some say i'm wasting my money and others say its stupid, but dammit i think it will be pretty freaken fun. A good challenge to