Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[95TalonOwner]

Good to see that it is back on the road already.

 

[RayPeters]

are you using 2 MAS's?

Nope just a single 3" unit right before the TB

 

[RayPeters]

Build boost below 2k? WTF

Yep. It looks like I got 8 psi at 1500 and it will take a few days to loosen the engine up enough before I want high bearing loads on it at such low RPM's to see what its capable of.

Ray

Remember, anyone in SOCal that wants to see this, I'll be @ risgecrest for the Rally school and Friday is an open day for me to get together with a few people if it isn't too far out of the way.

 

[LaN-]

Nope just a single 3" unit right before the TB

I see you have the maft in place but you have air coming in from the T body and the back of the intake mani. So i'm confused on all of that.

I'd buy a chip with your code and a intake mani that can have one of the S/C's bolted on for a good chunk of change.

Keep up the good work.

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

All I can "say" is Wow! I cant even imagine working on the car when something goes wrong.

 

[RayPeters]

I see you have the maft in place but you have air coming in from the T body and the back of the intake mani. So i'm confused on all of that.

I'd buy a chip with your code and a intake mani that can have one of the S/C's bolted on for a good chunk of change.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the kudos. The Supercharged air exits the rear of the manifold and heads out to the sidemount. The air that goes thru the MAFT and the TB is headed for the intake valves.

I'll try to draw a stick figure and get it posted. Off to find a little oil leak and adjust the idle fuel cutoff point to keep it from stalling so easily. probably 1800 or so instead of 1200 will be better.

 

[nightspeed87]

This is great. After youve broken it in you should dyno and get us some more videos ( of the dyno as well and on the track )
Did you go with forged internals this time? Id think a 2.3 stroker with fully built forged internals would make this set up awsome, i couldnt imagen the low end torque with a 2.3 stroker thrown into the mix.

 

[boostcrazy92tsi]

the setup looks pretty good. being that you fabbed everything up yourself im very impressed. on the other hand i would like to lend some advice. i think switching your engine management over to speed density would take care of alot of the tuning problems. my second suggestion is to use the ac compressor clutch pulley on the supercharger. than you could burn a code to turn the clutch on and off at a certain rpm. this would allow u to not need the smic for the blower and would let the turbo do most of the work. that is the setup that volks is using on their twin charged diesel over in europe.

 

[nightspeed87]

the setup looks pretty good. being that you fabbed everything up yourself im very impressed. on the other hand i would like to lend some advice. i think switching your engine management over to speed density would take care of alot of the tuning problems. my second suggestion is to use the ac compressor clutch pulley on the supercharger. than you could burn a code to turn the clutch on and off at a certain rpm. this would allow u to not need the smic for the blower and would let the turbo do most of the work. that is the setup that volks is using on their twin charged diesel over in europe.

this sounds very reasonably a good idea.

 

[LaN-]

Now i cant take credit for this because me and boostcrazy92tsi where talking about this............................me mostly listening

BUT

He mentioned using a G60 supercharger off a VW corrado. Its a centrifugal supercharger and honestly should be smaller enough to go where the A/C compressor would go. You could have some special brackets made and use the same RPM / boost switch to shut off the Supercharger. Its almost the perfect size for what you need. Just enough to spool the turbo and get some low end power.

Honestly you could route it straight into the UICP. You would only want the supercharger on till maybe 3k or 6 PSI and i don't see that being enough to require an intercooler.

If possible use the A/C clutch as mentioned and possibly use a stand alone like megasquirts. With megasquirts you can use a MAP sensor so it will change the timing / fuel with boost.

If making a code to shut the supercharger off is an issue maybe you could hack up a shift light and use that. In all seriousness you just need an on / off switch that goes via RPM. You could also change it on the go (that would be pretty cool).

Considering the price to all of this isnt extreme and i've got nothing better to do with my time. I'd consider doing something like this in the spring .

You've proved it can be done (and work very well) now i wanna take a wack at it.

I can just picture my 3431 spooling at 2 - 3k.



Now what i would like to know is what other cars have similar superchargers. Or places i could go and purchase something along those lines.

 

[danyz250f]

Is the 14b just for breakin.

 

[RayPeters]

Is the 14b just for breakin.

You'd like to think that's a 14b . It's an 18G for now, on the next engine (read 4g64 done just like this with lotsa forged goodies) a gt42R and an M90. I ran the numbers last week, and it is sweet. Now off to hit the lottery and finance this little dream.

 

[topnotchgsx]

Why have the supercharger shut off? Say you have a normal turbo set up, with the turbo configured normally, the intercooler pipes ran normally and so forth. Why not just get a centrifigal supercharger like LaN- said and put it somewhere like where the A/C compressor goes or something and route the outlet of the supercharger directly into the upper intercooler pipe. You could even get a dual entrance/single outlet intercooler to run it through. Then you would still have the supercharger making power down low and when the turbo spools you wouldnt have to worry about the supercharger becoming a restriction because the air from the turbo would not have to travel through the supercharger. Instead you would just be getting forced air from 2 sources all the time. Am I completely out of my mind here. Why would this not work? Being on a belt, the supercharger can only spin so fast and it would only need to spin as fast as it normally would because it is no way has anything to do with the air coming from the turbo. Instead the turbo is just seeing the benefit of the supercharger.

 

[RayPeters]

Why have the supercharger shut off? Say you have a normal turbo set up, with the turbo configured normally, the intercooler pipes ran normally and so forth. Why not just get a centrifigal supercharger like LaN- said and put it somewhere like where the A/C compressor goes or something and route the outlet of the supercharger directly into the upper intercooler pipe. You could even get a dual entrance/single outlet intercooler to run it through. Then you would still have the supercharger making power down low and when the turbo spools you wouldnt have to worry about the supercharger becoming a restriction because the air from the turbo would not have to travel through the supercharger. Instead you would just be getting forced air from 2 sources all the time. Am I completely out of my mind here. Why would this not work? Being on a belt, the supercharger can only spin so fast and it would only need to spin as fast as it normally would because it is no way has anything to do with the air coming from the turbo. Instead the turbo is just seeing the benefit of the supercharger.

parallel systems like this have been done, but lets dive into the idea a little deeper.

So the supercharger is capable of 10-12 psi if it is a positive displacement type, and a lottle more if it a centrifigal type. The Turbo system is like a normal dsm, 0-30 psi capable. If hooked to a common intake pipe, once the turbo produces a pressure above the supercharger, the air will try to back flow the lower pressure device. I gave this much thought and I agree it is possible with some fancy controls, but not pratical for non oem development. Sorry to shoot your idea down kinda, I welcome this type of discussion, forces me to think it through.

 

[topnotchgsx]

Oh heck no, you didnt shoot me down at all. I was simply asking why it would not work like that and you simply answered. I am just trying to further my knowledge of understanding, and the best/simplest way to do that is ask questions. By the way, you explained it very clearly.

Well what if it was way farther down the intake before the 2 air paths met. Like say the intake manifold. Say the had the intake split in half divided horizontally. Have the supercharger feed its air through the top part of the intake manifold, and the turbo through the bottom? The 2 air charges would still eventually meet right when they enter the head, so would it still try to force its way backwards against the greater psi from the turbo?

Also, cant you get smaller pulleys for a supercharger to run 30 psi if you wanted? I know top fuel cars run like 50psi off of a supercharger. So couldnt you just do what i was talking about the first time and match the 2 boosts together. Say 20 psi from the supercharger and 20psi from the turbo?


Keylan

 

[TurboAnything]

You know like 4 years ago i thought of doing this with a Thunderbird S/C charger on a DSM. I tryed to get a friend of mine to do it but they a chickened out on me. I got the idea from HKS's twin charged Type-R integra. That car was on stock internals making like 320hp with ton's of down low torque.

 

[aero_sallee]

A centrifugal supercharger won't make boost down low like the roots will. Using one with a turbo you just don't gain lowend like you can with a positive displacement blower.

 

[LaN-]

A centrifugal supercharger won't make boost down low like the roots will. Using one with a turbo you just don't gain lowend like you can with a positive displacement blower.

I dont know about that. I was reading about some other brand name superchargers they made psi 20 psi by 2k. And if you think about it we are trying to find a really small one and all we really need is 6 psi maybe. You could put a super small pulley on it so it would spool really fast.

 

[LaN-]

parallel systems like this have been done, but lets dive into the idea a little deeper.

So the supercharger is capable of 10-12 psi if it is a positive displacement type, and a lottle more if it a centrifigal type. The Turbo system is like a normal dsm, 0-30 psi capable. If hooked to a common intake pipe, once the turbo produces a pressure above the supercharger, the air will try to back flow the lower pressure device. I gave this much thought and I agree it is possible with some fancy controls, but not pratical for non oem development. Sorry to shoot your idea down kinda, I welcome this type of discussion, forces me to think it through.

I understand what your saying. Maybe you could have the supercharger recirculate, instead of pulling directly from the atmosphere. As long as you keep the intake from the turbo the only open part of the system it should never leak. It may still back flow but its a closed system so it shouldn't matter. By the time it would back flow the S/C is off so it wouldn't cause any issues.

 

[LaN-]

Why have the supercharger shut off? Say you have a normal turbo set up, with the turbo configured normally, the intercooler pipes ran normally and so forth. Why not just get a centrifigal supercharger like LaN- said and put it somewhere like where the A/C compressor goes or something and route the outlet of the supercharger directly into the upper intercooler pipe. You could even get a dual entrance/single outlet intercooler to run it through. Then you would still have the supercharger making power down low and when the turbo spools you wouldnt have to worry about the supercharger becoming a restriction because the air from the turbo would not have to travel through the supercharger. Instead you would just be getting forced air from 2 sources all the time. Am I completely out of my mind here. Why would this not work? Being on a belt, the supercharger can only spin so fast and it would only need to spin as fast as it normally would because it is no way has anything to do with the air coming from the turbo. Instead the turbo is just seeing the benefit of the supercharger.

You want the supercharger off so it doesn't bog down the engine. You've gotta remember how much of a drain it will cause since its belt driven. We all know how much power you can make with a turbo so you wont need it. The entire purpose of the S/C is spool.

 

[LaN-]

I say we have someone take a T25 and put a pulley on the exhaust side .

That would be a perfect size for this application.

How they would do it.......i have no idea.

 

[boostcrazy92tsi]

i agree that u cant make the low end with the centrifugal blower but the roots type makes for a funny design. all the extra piping and what not. with the turbine style u can mount it in a better location and route it into the intercooler with the turbo. u can also keep the maf upstream. the clutch on the supercharger i think would work very well. the roots type that is currently being used will defintely drag on the motor in the upper end. thats y i say shut it off once the turbo pops up. isnt that the whole point? once the turbo is spooled the supercharger can take a nap until u get into the low rpm range again.

 

[LaN-]

I don't know enough about superchargers but the centrifical one should still make power lower then the turbo correct? Which is really the goal here.

Number wise what do you think the difference in the S/C types would be.

I'd be interested to see spool comparisons between the 2 superchargers.

 

[topnotchgsx]

I say we have someone take a T25 and put a pulley on the exhaust side .

That would be a perfect size for this application.

How they would do it.......i have no idea.

It's funny that you mention that becuase I found this the other day!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/hols...ryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Keylan

 

[RayPeters]

This is a great discussion, keep it going!! When I get to the dyno stuff, I'm going to make back to back pulls with the SC and without. I can remove the belt and open the system before the turbo inlet. It will function just like a normal 18g'd dsm. Then we'll see just how much HP it actually costs. Remember, nothing is free . The turbo takes almost as much HP to drive it as the SC does, it just gets its power from a compressed column of hot gas.



I think it is possible to mount a whipple type blower upside down where the AC compressor is and then things would be better. I agree this isn't the end all for big HP but remember I'm after no lag response for Stage Rally, and anything over 400 whp is impossible through that 34mm restrictor. So I am making progress, and if SoCal has a dyno day when I can make it, I'll bring the car out and have some fun. I'm NOT trying to set HP records, but big torque interests me a lot.

LaN, the only problem with the "little blower" is that just like the little turbo it will run out very early. This Eaton I am running right now is just barely big enough for the demand, a M45 (.75L/rev) would be out even sooner, plus the really little ones have efficiency problems. I am searching for a whipple SC to use for a DD and move it under the intake. The whipple is not a roots type, but a axial screw compressor and available at various pressure ratios from 1.2 to 2.5. Then the pulley ratio is matched to the engine displacement.