Twincharger v2.0 teaser...Photos inside

[LaN-]

I understand the the S/C will run out quick and isnt very efficent, but all i want is the thing to come up as quick as possible and give me maybe 6 psi by 2-3k.

Thats it!

Once you get to that point i want it to shut off and let the turbo take over.

To be honest i'm not looking for the S/C to give me much power at all. I just want it to be used for spool.


Think about the entire setup like a seqential twin turbo setup. Like the RX7. 1 smaller turbo spools fast to get the larger turbo to spool and take over.

 

[RayPeters]

It's funny that you mention that becuase I found this the other day!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/hols...ryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Keylan

Totally hilarious. Have a look at the compressor map for a t-25. Nothing happens at ANY rpm theat would be obtainable with a direct belt system. Every paxton type supercharger I have ever seen uses a ball or gear type speed up to get from the input pulley rpm (0-15,000) or so to the useful rpm for a torbo compressor (35,000 and up).

The funny thing is someone will buy that.

 

[boostcrazy92tsi]

well the compressor wheels for superchargers are completely different than that of a turbo. and your right that is hilarious. there is no way that u could any psi out of a setup like that. i love how people always wanna half-ass everything. id still like to see a setup that uses a clutch to turn the blower off. i think it would completely change the game and make for a better setup.

 

[LaN-]

well the compressor wheels for superchargers are completely different than that of a turbo. and your right that is hilarious. there is no way that u could any psi out of a setup like that. i love how people always wanna half-ass everything. id still like to see a setup that uses a clutch to turn the blower off. i think it would completely change the game and make for a better setup.

Cutting half the hood away was stupid enough in itself.



So would using the centrifical supercharger not make boost fast enough for this application?

 

[topnotchgsx]

Just like a mountain bike, why couldn't you just use a super big pulley on the exhaust side of the turbo to make the compressor wheel spin the desired rpm that is needed? I know that turbos spin at like 120,000 rpm, but couldnt you just use a huge pulley that spins the same rpm as the motor, but since the compressor wheel is so much smaller, wouldnt it work, or at least get close? Once again, just asking.


Keylan

 

[LaN-]

Just like a mountain bike, why couldn't you just use a super big pulley on the exhaust side of the turbo to make the compressor wheel spin the desired rpm that is needed? I know that turbos spin at like 120,000 rpm, but couldnt you just use a huge pulley that spins the same rpm as the motor, but since the compressor wheel is so much smaller, wouldnt it work, or at least get close? Once again, just asking.


Keylan

if anything i think you would want a smaller pulley.

 

[RayPeters]

I am researching the clutch stuff for the whipple screw type SC. It has been done on STI's and had limited sucess. The problem is drivability/reliability. For driveability having it direct drive is the easy way to go, for all out top end power unloading the engine is better, but the power requirements for the SC unloaded (not making pressure) are pretty low. It may not be the lowest hanging fruit right now. We shall see. I am working on video and pics of the running car. Maybe tonight when I decend on the local Sonic

 

[eclipsh]

It would be entirely feasible to convert a T-25 with a simple gear system so it was spinning at the desired RPMs with input from the motor. You'd just want a sealed case with some oil in it on the old exhaust side of the turbo. I'm sure that is the way most superchargers that style work. The linked ebay setup has a large housing on it in which he may have played with some gearing, unless that is just the stock T-25 center housing.


Ray, how is your fuel tuning going? I know you were having issues with that in the last thread. Am I reading correctly that you are or will be programing EPROM chips for this setup?

 

[eagle4life]

so weres the video!

 

[LaN-]

I am researching the clutch stuff for the whipple screw type SC. It has been done on STI's and had limited sucess. The problem is drivability/reliability. For driveability having it direct drive is the easy way to go, for all out top end power unloading the engine is better, but the power requirements for the SC unloaded (not making pressure) are pretty low. It may not be the lowest hanging fruit right now. We shall see. I am working on video and pics of the running car. Maybe tonight when I decend on the local Sonic

Would you still have to hack up the intake mani with the whipple SC?

What do you mean by direct drive?

 

[LaN-]

Do you have any pictures of the inside of the intake mani?

 

[boostcrazy92tsi]

i would think the durabililty of the clutch would be very high. when the ac compressor comes on it actully lowers the rpms substancially. i would think that it should be able to clutch the blower without a problem. a compressor and a supercharger are very similar in terms of what they do. alot of the ac compressor have up to 10 pistons in them. thats alot of force to turn over. shit the blower might actully have a lower load resistance than the ac compressor. and in terms of direct drive hes talkin 1:1 ration on the pulleys. i agree that would be the best way to set it up. it would keep the motor as happy as possible while turning the blower over at the required rpm to build boost. if u could mount the blower in the position when the ac compressor is and used the ac compressor clutch you might be close to that ratio with the stock belt.

 

[bullettdsm]

Ray,
I don't have too much to add to this thread other than, thankyou. Thank you for pushing through with this project while others may have given you considerable flack for it. There are give and takes in what you have done and some see other things that you could have done differently. That's probably the best part of doing this. It has made others stand up and think about how to apply it as opposed to how to denigrate it. Kudos to your pioneering spirit.

And, of course, anxiously awaiting the dyno numbers and the vid's.

Congrats,

MB

 

[RayPeters]

Do you have any pictures of the inside of the intake mani?

The short answer is not as good as you'd like, but attached is what there is. It is exactly what it looks like inside, a square box with the intake runners welded to it. The volume is a little bigger than I'd like, but the next one will be the bomb. Once I get welding, remembering to go get the camera is hard for me.

 

[RayPeters]

Cutting half the hood away was stupid enough in itself.



So would using the centrifical supercharger not make boost fast enough for this application?

No, they build boost just like a turbo except they are belt driven. They aren't positive displacement so they rely on high speeds to compress the air.

 

[LaN-]

No, they build boost just like a turbo except they are belt driven. They aren't positive displacement so they rely on high speeds to compress the air.

So basically i think i'll throw the idea of a centrifugal supercharger out the window.

I just really didn't want to hack my intake mani up.

You should you could maybe mount a roots / screw S/C where the A/C compressor would go and weld up an outlet for it, instead of having it go straight into the mani?

 

[LaN-]

So from what i can gather so far the supercharger you have is an eaton m90. Its obviously to big to fit under the stock intake mani.

Now i did some more research and found the eaton M45 it what comes on the mini cooper S.

http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_m45data.htm

Look at the dimensions i think you could fit it in there. (double check if possible)

Make a flange / pipe for the bottom and route it into the UICP. Then hook up a clutch system and it would be perfect.

Now if you space was really an issue you could look into the m24 but that might be to small

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eato...ryZ33741QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Either way give me your thoughts on this.

 

[turbo addict]

Ray just to get this right, in this order you have the air filter then the eaton then intercooler side mount then the turbo, the front mount and through the maf and through throttle body.
How much boost are you running from the SC? And you are measuring at the intake manifold correct. I would like to see the pressure after the supercharger and before turbo. I would think that as the turbo spools the boost from the supercharger would drop and not stay constant. As the engine is going to flow x amount of air at x revs. and the sc is the same, the boost in relation to the engine is the same per the pulley but the turbo is much more dynamic.
If the supercharger is before the turbo I would think that as it only lets in x amount of air for a certain rpm of the supercharger, and that it shoudn't flow any more if the turbo is in the mix or not. it spins the same whether or not the turbo is there. But if it (supercharger) is after the turbo from the turbos perspective, would look like a bigger motor flowing a set amount more air per rev of the engine and SC. And you can run a bigger turbo and or have faster spool up.
It's 4:15 in the mourning and I could be off, but that is how I am seeing it now. Doesen't that seem right?

 

[turbo addict]

From what I remember in a series turbo or supercharger (big and small turbo) or (supercharger and turbo) set up you can only flow as much air as the outside compressor device will allow (flow). P.S. still 4:15am

 

[RayPeters]

Ray just to get this right, in this order you have the air filter then the eaton then intercooler side mount then the turbo, the front mount and through the maf and through throttle body.
How much boost are you running from the SC? And you are measuring at the intake manifold correct. I would like to see the pressure after the supercharger and before turbo. I would think that as the turbo spools the boost from the supercharger would drop and not stay constant. As the engine is going to flow x amount of air at x revs. and the sc is the same, the boost in relation to the engine is the same per the pulley but the turbo is much more dynamic.
If the supercharger is before the turbo I would think that as it only lets in x amount of air for a certain rpm of the supercharger, and that it shoudn't flow any more if the turbo is in the mix or not. it spins the same whether or not the turbo is there. But if it (supercharger) is after the turbo from the turbos perspective, would look like a bigger motor flowing a set amount more air per rev of the engine and SC. And you can run a bigger turbo and or have faster spool up.
It's 4:15 in the mourning and I could be off, but that is how I am seeing it now. Doesen't that seem right?

Yes you have the order correct. The SC supplies a 1.6 pressure ratio so at sea level 8.8 psi.

I also agree the turbo is more dynamic, and I had tried this the other way before (version 1) and may go back to that (great thing about the plumbing, I can swap it around). It was suggested by Eaton to run it this way, so who am I to agrue with them?

However, the supercharger as geared right now flows 565CFM at the air filter. That is enough air to see 400 hp if I remember correctly. So the turbo can get that much air without the boost falling off from the SC at all, I'm adding a second boost gauge today, taking out my disco light show (wideband rules) and getting to the tuning. I'm not yet using more than 50% throttle while the engine gets loosened up, so I've seen 15 lbs so far and that's in by 2500. I may actually limit boost at the low end because it lugs the engine a little more than I'd like.

The

 

[Just Nasty]

I think this is a great project that you have going here.

Hopefully I'm not asking anything redundant, but what turbo do you plan to match with this setup? Also, what type of 1/4th time are you expecting once this is all said and done?

I'd love to see some videos of this beast in action once it's all said and done. Actually videos are a must have, heh.

Keep up the good work.

 

[RayPeters]

I think this is a great project that you have going here.

Hopefully I'm not asking anything redundant, but what turbo do you plan to match with this setup? Also, what type of 1/4th time are you expecting once this is all said and done?

I'd love to see some videos of this beast in action once it's all said and done. Actually videos are a must have, heh.

Keep up the good work.

Right now I'm on a 18G. Might go bigger once the system is proven. I think a GT35 would look good stuffed in there . Honestly drag racing isn't my thing, and this setup won't give you any advantages for drag because the launch rpm is high enough to get spool already. The car should be capable of 12.5's or better, but as long as I'm buying the trannys we won't be getting too crazy.
I'm working on the videos, my camera shoots in quicktime and that is a huge PITA to edit, so everyone please hang in there, the vid's are coming.

 

[eclipsh]

Quicktime Pro or Apple's iMovie should help you with that Quicktime editing if you don't already have them. Might as well work with the developers own tools.

Odd thought here, but the Cyclone intake manifold has a dual runner setup that might be a very interesting adaptation for this setup. It might not too. I'm picturing something where the S/C pushes air through the long runners (low end torque due to swirl effect plus S/C) and the turbo can use the short runners. I don't know if you could adapt the butterfly valves from the short runners for anything useful in that setup. You could port the hell out of the runners and be able to isolate your airflows by using the butterfly valves to prevent backflow to the turbo. Only thing I can't figure out there is where the turbo's air would go before they opened WTF I haven't looked at an un-ported maifold but if you weren't as aggressive with porting as the guy linked below I think the airflows remain isolated all the way into the combustion chamber.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151079190&postcount=44

Oops, I was wrong, they just MOSTLY isolate airlow.

 

[RayPeters]

Well, got to some real butt dyno testing today, only going to 4500rpm but I have an air supply issue. Eaton is full of !@#$. The turbo can't get enough air through the supercharger. I was a little supicious this might be a problem, but the Eaton engineers assured me this wouldn't happen. It feels great but only 15 psi above 3000 isn't enough to satisfy my needs. So I tore out all the tubing and I'm going back to the original setup, turbo first, Supercharger next. Should have the new piping done tomorrow night, just in time for a day of testing before the trip to cali. The good news is the engine is liking it, my intake temps are looking good, outside air temp +15 at the intake. I can work with that. No knock problems this time, I'm also going to run some c53vc champion spark plugs, a surface discharge type to see how it likes them.

I'm going to post one video of this setup just because if nothing else the sounds it made were SWEET!!

I gave some thought to modding a cyclone intake for this, I have 2 collecting dust on a shelf, but the flow through a single runner wasn't good enough. Still the idea is interesting, maybe I'll to a version of that with individual TB's at a later date.

So Turbo addict was right even at 4:15 am. Just can't get enough air into the system as I have the SC geared now. Stay tuned.

One final note I'll be taking the camera and stuff to the RallX so look for a story from the event once I get back.

 

[LaN-]

You need to pull out all the piping and just go with the clutch setup. There is no need to have hte S/C on once the turbo is spooled. There is no power increase.


You need the turbo to pull all the air in. Send it normally to the intake mani, but Y the UICP and have it go to the S/C also. Hook a clutch up and have it hooked up to a boost solenoid.

If you got all the fuel maps and timing fixed within the ECU since its not use to seeing boost so low thats by far the best way to install this setup.