Tuning...... A stupid question

[CanadianTSi]

Ya, now that I think about it isn't it the rs49t suppose to spool around 3500rpm... especially
since I'm running a blowthru setup with a full 3" intake pipe from the filter to the turbo?

I checked the head, ex. mani. and turbo..... no signs of any leaks.

EDIT.... I just talked to AGP regarding the boost drop and they said the same thing about trying to adjust the
wastegate arm.

Get out your 12mm and 14mm socket/wrench and go over all those bolts

And funy that AGP would say the same thing

 

[madman]

Looks like your heading in the right direction, shorten that wg arm and do another pull. Now one other thing is your mom driving the car when you do these pulls, letting off at 6700 . But seriously it would be better if you could get a full pull to the redline so you can see what kind of total advance you will get.

Ya ya funny funny


Next time

I get off work at 10pm and man I'm glad I carry tools around with me, I'll adjust the arm, turn up the boost a little and let her rip.

 

[gsxtacy]

Dude, you timing is supposed to dip to 9-15* when boost hits then steadily climb WITH NO DIPS to 18-21*. Your timing advance is being knocked back repeatedly from 3900-6000.

From 4000-5000-6000-7000 I would say ADD another 3-6% across the board and see what it does. It looks like your knocking from the instant boost hits.

Good luck.

 

[ltho98]

I agree with ^^^^

The timing isn't supposed to dip. However, it looks like you might be running a hair too rich upon spool up. Take more signal out right on spool up. But not too much.

You may want to enrichen at a lower or higher area though. Do you have a log that has knock counts?

 

[madman]

I agree with ^^^^

The timing isn't supposed to dip. However, it looks like you might be running a hair too rich upon spool up. Take more signal out right on spool up. But not too much.

You may want to enrichen at a lower or higher area though. Do you have a log that has knock counts?

No I can't log knock.....otherwise I wouldn't be wondering if my timing is being pulled beacause I'm too rich or I'm knocking.

I tend to think I need to lean it out a little more too, that's why I thought I would just turn up the boost a little more.

On the way home from work I was in 5th and stepped on it a little and it hit 20.5 right at 3500rpm and held to 5500rpm.....so now I'm thinking I might leave the boost alone and lean out 4k - 7k.....oh ya I havn't messed with the actuator arm yet cause a couln't get the wrench on the 2 nuts due to clearance

last log
AFC -8 -12 -14 -16 -22 -26 -26 -26

Do I

A: -8 -12 -14 -14 -18 -22 -22 -22 richer ( gsxtacy )
or
B: -8 -12 -14 -18 -24 -28 -28 -28 leaner ( ltho98 )

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

I would say do neither.

Get a good 3rd gear pull at your new boost setting starting at 3K rpms.

The last log you posted your timing was climbing...not fast but climbing none the less.

 

[daren_p]

I agree with ^^^^

The timing isn't supposed to dip. However, it looks like you might be running a hair too rich upon spool up. Take more signal out right on spool up. But not too much.

You may want to enrichen at a lower or higher area though. Do you have a log that has knock counts?

Not sure if this was just a typo, but it is incorrect. The timing should dip on spool up and then continue to increase to redline. Your timing seems abit low at the top of your pull but that should be easy enough to deal with once you have the other issues straightened out. The last log you posted looked not to bad, so before making anymore adjustments I would shorten the actuator to get your boost constant & then make some logs right to redline & go from there.

 

[spyderturbo007]

From the look of your SAFC settings, you are really rich on the bottom end. This is very likely to be your problem with the timing droping to 4 degrees. With 650cc injectors your baseline tune should start at -31%. I always recommend going a little richer than that to start and working your way up from there.

If I were you this is what I would do.

1. Make sure there are no boost leaks.
2. Gap your plugs at 0.026 - 0.028"
3. Leave your boost at 20 psi
4. Take care of your actuator arm
5. Set the SAFC-II to -26% across the entire RPM range
6. Make another pull from 2.5k to redline, logging RPM, airflow, O2, and timing.

Doing this will give us a consistent baseline. Your first log is difficult to interpret, as your SAFC-II settings are all over the place. Using a consistent distribution will allow us to make small adjustments from the baseline log. This is, however, just my personal way to tune.......so take my opinion / advise for what it's worth.

 

[madman]

Well I've been busy while the site was down.

I think I've fixed my wastegate arm problem. I tightened it a 1/4 turn and also noticed that the arm was rubbing against the mounting bracket due to the angle.... so I had to grind out the hole that the arm goes through so that it's not touching it. Now It spikes a litte to 19 - 19.5 and then drops and holds at 18.5 psi.

Now I just need to turn the boost up more to make sure it will keep holding a higher setting.

Plugs were already gapped at .28

I've made several more logs so here is one of the latest ones. This was at 18.5 psi

AFC  -14 -16 -18 -20 -20 -22 -24 -24 					
Time	RPM	Timing	Airflow	TPS	O2 1 Bank 1
00:03.3	2844	26	4.79	100.2	0.04
00:03.7	2956	23	5.23	100.2	0.04
00:04.7	3060	23	5.66	100.2	0.04
00:05.2	3316	17	7.35	100.2	0.04
00:05.7	3468	16	8.55	100.2	0.06
00:06.1	3680	10	10.85	100.2	0.88
00:06.6	3904	7	13.29	100.2	0.94
00:07.0	4140	5	14.47	100.2	0.94
00:07.5	4372	7	15.01	100.2	0.94
00:08.0	4604	7	16.31	100.2	0.96
00:08.5	4828	7	17.18	100.2	0.98
00:08.9	5084	9	17.96	100.2	0.98
00:09.9	5564	10	18.81	100.2	0.98
00:10.4	5756	13	20.37	100.2	0.98
00:10.8	5960	12	20.97	99.41	0.98
00:11.3	6160	13	21.51	100.2	0.98
00:11.8	6356	14	21.79	100.2	0.98
00:12.2	6552	13	22.02	100.2	0.98
00:12.7	6736	14	22.21	100.2	0.98
00:13.2	6880	14	22.25	100.2	0.98
00:13.6	7044	15	22.25	100.2	0.98

I think my next adjustment will be -20 from 1k - 4.5k and -22 from 5k -7k (goes with what spyderturbo007 was saying)

or I can just add fuel up top (6k -22 and 7k -22) and increase the boost to 20psi.

or do both.

 

[madman]

By the way I'm using a GM Maf with injector corrections so my AFC settings may look way off compared
to someone that is only using the AFC

Here are my latest logs still at 18.5psi. I think I'm on the right track

AFC -18 -18 -18 -18 -18 -20 -20 -18
coolant temp 207 untill 6688 and then went to 210

RPM. T... AIR... O2
2816 26 04.65 0.04
2912 24 04.98 0.04
3008 23 05.58 0.04
3088 22 06.08 0.04
3256 21 07.14 0.04
3628 07 10.86 0.92
3844 04 13.27 0.94
4132 04 14.32 0.96
4392 05 15.78 0.98
4660 05 16.64 1.00
4964 07 17.71 1.00
5208 08 18.51 1.00
5468 11 19.22 0.98
5952 15 21.08 1.00
6220 15 21.56 1.00
6464 16 21.90 1.00
6688 16 22.20 1.00
6904 17 22.40 1.00
7108 17 22.31 1.00

** From what I was told before, I shouldn't be that low when the timing drops so I richened everything
up 2%

AFC -16 -16 -16 -16 -16 -18 -18 -16
coolant temp 210 all the way through

RPM. T... AIR... O2
2892 29 04.26 0.04
2032 27 04.83 0.04
3168 24 05.57 0.04
3456 22 07.72 0.04
3680 16 09.88 0.10
3952 07 12.80 0.96
4260 05 14.77 0.98
4536 06 16.23 1.02
4804 06 17.20 1.00
5064 08 18.24 1.02
5360 09 18.74 1.00
5832 11 20.98 1.02
6092 15 21.51 1.00
6304 14 21.99 1.02
6564 15 22.26 1.02
6760 15 22.27 1.02
6956 15 22.45 1.02
7096 16 22.40 1.02

** Well the timing didn't drop as low but now my timing went down 1* on the top end

I haven't turned up the boost yet because right now (3rd gear set at 18.5) I will hit 21psi in 5th gear.

Is that normal?

Comparing the 2, I liked the way the 1st log spooled up 1 -3k, 2nd log looked good at 4 and 4.5k and 1st log
looked best from 5 -7k.

So any thoughts about doing -18 -18 -18 -16 -16 -20 -20 -18

EDIT--- Oh ya for CanadianTSI who asked.....I'm seeing 1542hz on all of my last 3-5 logs

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

How accurate are those LB/Min and Hz readings of yours and what are you using to record them? I'm asking because you're running a 50 trim and on my T04B I'm getting 24.8 LB/min at only 13 psi. Hz readings were 1400's.

 

[madman]

How accurate are those LB/Min and Hz readings of yours and what are you using to record them? I'm asking because you're running a 50 trim and on my T04B I'm getting 24.8 LB/min at only 13 psi. Hz readings were 1400's.

I'm using digital tuning's pocketlogger.

As I stated above, I'm also using the MAF-T which is correcting for the injectors, so that right there, I think, affects the actuall amount of air seen by the computer plus the AFC
making corrections is also affecting it.

Maybe that's why I'm having such a hard time because of the MAF-T. I wonder if I should just zero it out and do all the corrections with the AFC only.

Then I have to go back to square one though.

It's crazy because to do my fuel trims I'm at like +20 something for 1k, +14 for 2k, +8 for 3k and +5 for 4k ......but yet when I do a run in 3rd gear it's all under -16....

The MAF-t is set to 650cc injectors (for what I have) and I know that people say that it is
not alwasy the best seeting, but that's what I origionaly set it too because when I first got
my car back from the shop my o2 sensor had crapped out on me and I was stuck in open loop. So I set it to 650's to be safe cause without being able to see my trims adjust, the o2 readings were stuck at .02 I had no real way of telling how rich or lean I was.

Then when I replaced the o2 sensor I just left the MAF-T set to 650's and starting adjusting with the AFC

 

[madman]

How accurate are those LB/Min and Hz readings of yours and what are you using to record them? I'm asking because you're running a 50 trim and on my T04B I'm getting 24.8 LB/min at only 13 psi. Hz readings were 1400's.

Just curious, what are your settings at??

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Unfortunately, my 650's are not in so my SAFC is nearly 0'ed out across the board. I've taken a percent or two out here and there to even my logs up but otherwise they're stock. I'm assuming this means I'm seeing my actual airflow. If you're taking that much air out (in the 20-30% range) does this mean that your airflow is also 20-30% higher then what is shown? I'm also using the Digital Tuning pocketlogger.

-edit-

Another thing I just thought of. If your MAF-T is set correctly then you shouldn't be having to take that much air out right? You'd just be adjusting a few percent here to fine tune since the MAF-T is what is giving you your base tune for the injectors. I'll go ahead and say that I'm not all that hot on MAF-T stuff so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[madman]

Unfortunately, my 650's are not in so my SAFC is nearly 0'ed out across the board. I've taken a percent or two out here and there to even my logs up but otherwise they're stock. I'm assuming this means I'm seeing my actual airflow. If you're taking that much air out (in the 20-30% range) does this mean that your airflow is also 20-30% higher then what is shown? I'm also using the Digital Tuning pocketlogger.

-edit-

Another thing I just thought of. If your MAF-T is set correctly then you shouldn't be having to take that much air out right? You'd just be adjusting a few percent here to fine tune since the MAF-T is what is giving you your base tune for the injectors. I'll go ahead and say that I'm not all that hot on MAF-T stuff so correct me if I'm wrong.

I was told that you take the air you see and multiply it by the percentage you take out with the AFC and then add that to you meetered air, so you would be right.

Since I'm using the MAF-T, I'm not sure how much percentage it is correcting so I think it would be hard for me to figure my actuall air between the MAFT and the AFC.

If I wasn't using the MAFT then my AFC settings would probably be much lower than they are now.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

I can't help but notice how the less air you took out, the better your timing advance and .o2 readings were. Not to mention the more air you were flowing. If your MAF-T is set for 650's AND your SAFC was set for 650's (without any other tuning tools) I'm betting you were running really, really lean, thus the crappy timing. Taking that much fuel out on an SAFC should make your timing jump through the roof. I'm curious as to what would happen if you gave it some more fuel. Might be a good idea to find someone else who's running a MAF-T and SAFC combo and see what their settings are. Please, anyone else like to chime in?

 

[madman]

There is not way to "set" the AFC to 650's. It's just helping the MAFT adjust for the injectors.

Since I'm having to, in low throttle setting, set 1k at +24 in order to get the fuel trim right, tells me that my MAFT is way off for the base setting for the injectors.

Again, maybe that is why I'm having such a probelm but I'm not sure. It's almost like when I go into open loop the MAFT isn't making any corrections at all, just the AFC. Why would my lo throttle settings be so high (adding %) and hi throttle be so low (removing %)
If you look at just 1k compared to lo vs. hi there is a 45% difference

lo +27 +13 +9 +5 +3 +3 +3 +3
hi -18 -18 -18 -16 -16 -20 -20 -18

I'm thinking I might just zero out the MAFT, and just use the AFC to do all the corrections.....but I really don't want to start from scratch.

If anyone else thinks I should then I will.

I did a log with my settings a little richer..... another -2% (-14.....) across the board and it got real dogish and the log looked like crap compared the the others....so I figured I was gettin way too rich as the o2 readings showed.

I guess I'll do more research about the MAFT and probably just zero it out and start over.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Ah well. It was just a wild hunch brought on from hours of boredom at work. See what you can find out and let us know. For some reason, I'm curious as to how you get it all fixed.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Judging by your Hz count I guarantee that your GM Maf is out of calibration.

Also looking at your o2's your pig rich.

 

[madman]

Judging by your Hz count I guarantee that your GM Maf is out of calibration.

Also looking at your o2's your pig rich.

I thought I was pretty rich too, but some on here keep saying not to worry about the o2 and just tune for timing, in which riching it up actually got the timing up but only to a point where it's at now.

As for the timing I think I have a nice curve without dips like in the last post with AFC -16 -16 -16 -16 -16 -18 -18 -16......

Is it really that bad that the timing drops to 5 and only gets as high as 16?

Does it mean that I'm knocking, which is keeping the timing low? or just beacuse of the hz and air readings that I'm getting.

I guess my key question is, am I in any danger to keep running with that low of timing? I don't even get on it in 4th or 5th gear because I'm not sure about it or not.

If you think I'm safe, then I will turn up the boost and go from there.

 

[madman]

Judging by your Hz count I guarantee that your GM Maf is out of calibration.

I didn't notice this....maybe I was jumping the gun above.......so if I get the the hz a little higher around 16xx do you think that would help the timing?

What's the magic number I want to see for hz? I remember is was in the 1600's

 

[CanadianTSi]

Anything over 2.55 grams/rev will give you the highest timing table.

But if the S-AFC is seeing only 1500 and then your taking out another 20% the ECU isn't seeing very much airflow.

And just for reference I am seeing almost 2700hz on my S-AFC...

 

[dsm-onster]

Judging by your Hz count I guarantee that your GM Maf is out of calibration.

Also looking at your o2's your pig rich.

And the hammer meets the nail head square! IMHO, this is what's really throwing you off here.

 

[madman]

Anything over 2.55 grams/rev will give you the highest timing table.

But if the S-AFC is seeing only 1500 and then your taking out another 20% the ECU isn't seeing very much airflow.

And just for reference I am seeing almost 2700hz on my S-AFC...

I'm getting confused becuase I've read in several different places that if the computer is seeing less airflow, because of an AFC, then it will advance timing......so is there a line between me seeing airflow so low that it's holding my timing back and lo readings that will advance the timing?

Sorry for my ignorance but you are losing me with the grams....I'm still learning about how the hz corilates with tuning......is 2.55 grams 2550hz? If not how do I relate grams to hz?

 

[gsxtacy]

In My Honest Opinion.....I cannot contribute any advice on tuning with a Maft based car, I thought you were still using a 2g MAS.

When I had FIC 650's and a SAFC blue screen (and all the other fuel basics completed) My Lo's were: -32 all the way to -35
My high's were: -33 to -36/-37ish
@ 18 psi, best airflow I ever logged 24 lb/min. I never boosted it over 20 psi cause I didn't have a intercooler that was worth a crap till just recently

Lived 35,000 miles of street life in this configuration till it turned a rod bearing one Hot June day.

The number one Rule is All cars are different, tune accordingly.

Best of luck man.