Tuning...... A stupid question

[madman]

If I tune for 15psi will I have to re-tune if I run 20psi?........or will the computer self correct for the extra air flow?

 

[CanadianTSi]

You will have to re-tune.

 

[madman]

You will have to re-tune.

Cool, thanks.

I figured it wouldn't be that easy. I just installed my 50trim and I'm actually starting out at 10psi to get a good base down and then figured going up to 15 and then slower from there.

It looks like we have similar setups, how hard was yours to get a good tune with the AFC?

I wish I would have the AFC-II, I'm sure that would make it much easier.

Do you have any sugestions of how much boost to increase it by between tunes?

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

Cool, thanks.

I figured it wouldn't be that easy. I just installed my 50trim and I'm actually starting out at 10psi to get a good base down and then figured going up to 15 and then slower from there.

It looks like we have similar setups, how hard was yours to get a good tune with the AFC?

I wish I would have the AFC-II, I'm sure that would make it much easier.

Do you have any sugestions of how much boost to increase it by between tunes?

If you are not trying to "break in" any parts IE: clutch/motor. Then why not go ahead and tune for the boost you want to run on the street? If you are like 80% of the people on here including myself, we tune for as much boost as can be had without knock. It is going to be fun enough tuning with an afc and logger (you do have a logger right?) that i doubt you will want to be tuning it 3 times. If you have all supporting mods 18psi would be a good starting point.

 

[madman]

If you are not trying to "break in" any parts IE: clutch/motor. Then why not go ahead and tune for the boost you want to run on the street? If you are like 80% of the people on here including myself, we tune for as much boost as can be had without knock. It is going to be fun enough tuning with an afc and logger (you do have a logger right?) that i doubt you will want to be tuning it 3 times. If you have all supporting mods 18psi would be a good starting point.

Yes, I'm ussing a logger. I was just being cautious, maybe a little scared. I didn't know if it would be a good idea just go that high right off the bat.

I just had a valve job with oversized valves, port, and polish. Bottom end still looked real solid. Everything is broken in properly.

My goal was too be able to run 20psi and leave it.

 

[gsxtacy]

One thing I found helpful about tuning with a SAFC, was to graph RPM & Karmen and do one third gear pull from 2500-6000. When you can see how Karmen/"air flow" correlate to RPM and Load, you can tailor your settings to how the airflow curve is on your car.

Set your boost level to where you want to be and +/- whatever you need, where ever in the RPM band to make it feel best.

My low settings were usually my boost starting point setting straight across.

Good luck., I hated tuning with my SAFC/logger.

 

[CanadianTSi]

When I first tuned my car I set it at 20psi and mad a few pulls and was satisfied. Over the next few weeks I slowly upped the boost 1 or 2psi and checked my tune. Eventually I was running 24psi.

I find tuning with the S-AFC/logger combo very easy, you just have to realize it's never going to be perfect or else you will drive yourself crazy.

 

[daren_p]

15 psi should be a pretty good place to start, you could even go a couple psi higher. When I tuned mine I just got my fuel trim in line (dsmlink) then did the wot pulls with the boost set to where I was going to run it (18 psi), I didn't bother to take steps. I just made sure I wasn't knocking, which is alot easier to do with dsmlink since you can set the CEL to flash however many degrees of knock you want (initially set it low at 2 deg). As for tunning it again from going from 15 psi to 20, yes you will have to do it again if you want to get the best tune but if at 15 psi you are creating enough airflow to be on the highest fuel/timing maps the tune should be pretty close between the two settings.

 

[madman]

Thanks for all the input.

I'm up to 17psi and tuning has been crazy.

First off I was real rich, 1.00 to 1.02 on the NB o2 but timing was decent increasing to
18* over 6k rpm and airflow around 22lbs.

So I've leaned it out so far to get the o2 around .96-.98 and of course the airflow now reads around 17lbs and the timing has dropped to 12* over 6k rpm

I've read that the timing drops because the airflow registers less........

I still nead to lean it out.....so how much timing should I expect running this setup with 650's and an AFC once I get around 20psi?

If it keeps like this the most I'll see is 10*-12* with the AFC in the -30's

 

[daren_p]

Thanks for all the input.

I'm up to 17psi and tuning has been crazy.

First off I was real rich, 1.00 to 1.02 on the NB o2 but timing was decent increasing to
18* over 6k rpm and airflow around 22lbs.

So I've leaned it out so far to get the o2 around .96-.98 and of course the airflow now reads around 17lbs and the timing has dropped to 12* over 6k rpm

I've read that the timing drops because the airflow registers less........

I still nead to lean it out.....so how much timing should I expect running this setup with 650's and an AFC once I get around 20psi?

If it keeps like this the most I'll see is 10*-12* with the AFC in the -30's

I don't have first hand experience with the safc so I can't answer all your questions but your timing seems to be backwards. The more fuel you remove the more your timing should be advanced (since the ecu thinks there is less load). Without any timing added via dsmlink I see ~18 deg advance at the top of third. If your timing is being re-tarted that much I would think you must be knocking? Your NB O2's do seem higher then norm, but they aren't a very good indicator to go on, personally I see around .90-.92 for 11 to 1 air/fuel on my wideband. If you post your logged data that would help out alot.

 

[madman]

I posted my very first one, titled new log with 50trim, but no one has replied so I just kept going.....

I have made around 6 more logs, three of them I kept good notes regarding each adjustment made on the AFC.

I'll try to post those 3 tomarrow plus the one that I'm currently at.


last log:

AFC -2 -8 -14 -20 -24 -28 -28 -30

PRM TIMING AIR O2
3416 23 05.93 .06
3560 13 07.78 .10
3724 10 09.10 .90
3916 06 10.95 .96
4100 04 11.82 .96
4288 05 12.21 .96
4480 08 12.35 .96
4660 07 13.21 .96
4848 07 13.80 .98
5012 07 13.82 .98
5460 10 14.03 .98
5636 08 15.31 .98
5800 07 15.84 .98
5944 09 16.40 .98
6104 09 16.59 .98
6344 10 16.78 .98
6496 11 17.25 .98
6736 12 17.21 .98


Sorry about the bad post, I'm at work so it's the best I can do till tomarrow.

 

[madman]

Previous log
AFC 1, 2, 3, ..4, .4.5, 5,... 6, ...7
AFC 0 -6 -12 -18 -22 -26 -26- -28

RPM TIMING AIR o2

3304 18 06.54 .12
3464 12 07.86 .92
3648 09 08.80 .92
3844 05 10.83 .98
4256 03 12.47 .98
4504 07 12.87 .98
4940 07 13.89 1.0
5124 09 14.36 .98
5332 10 14.86 .98
5540 10 15.55 .98
5764 09 16.21 .98
5972 11 16.77 1.0
6240 12 17.21 1.0
6620 14 17.82 .98

So here I'm reading more air, richer o2 and more timing. Above was leaner and less air and timing went down and worse timing curve.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Are you still runing 17psi?

Don't touch the S-AFC and turn the boost up to 20, then make another log.

 

[madman]

Are you still runing 17psi?

Don't touch the S-AFC and turn the boost up to 20, then make another log.

Yes I am.

I thought about that as well.

I'll give it a try tomarrow.

Thanks.

 

[daren_p]

In the first post (your "last log") looks like your knocking abit as the timing is being pulled at 5636 rpms.

 

[madman]

In the first post (your "last log") looks like your knocking abit as the timing is being pulled at 5636 rpms.

It shows I'm pretty rich also.....would that be "rich" knock......or timing being pulled

because I'm running rich?

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

I really would not go by the NB o2 readings. When judged against a WB o2 they can be off in either direction (some times alot!). Without having some way of judging the amount of knock, you are shooting in the dark when tuning. I would go ahead and assume that your timing low spots are due to knock and try bumping the fuel up a bit to see if it corrects it. you know what they say..."better to be rich than lean".

 

[madman]

Ok, I'm leanring things about myself........I have no balls......

Man this thing is starting to pull like crazy and then I get scared an shut it down.......

so this is with the boost turned up to what I thought would be 20psi.....I hit 19psi in fourth gear but when I did the 3rd gear pull the boost gauge only registered 18psi but I did show a little more air than my "last log".

AFC stayed the same -2 -8 -14 -20 -24 -28 -28 -30

I see the timing got pulled at 5620 but that was when I started to let off the throttle.....I wonder if that had anything to do with it......o2 are looking better..

Guess I will add 2% between 5k to 7k to be safe and see If I can stomach a pull past 6k.

Time	RPM	Timing	Airflow	TPS	O2 1 Bank 1
00:00.5	2256	22	3.69	50.69	0.06
00:00.9	2312	23	3.51	88.8	0.04
00:01.4	2384	27	3.34	100.2	0.04
00:01.9	2412	27	3.47	100.2	0.04
00:02.3	2464	27	3.65	100.2	0.04
00:02.8	2524	27	3.76	100.2	0.04
00:03.3	2576	28	3.93	100.2	0.04
00:04.3	2696	27	4.12	100.2	0.04
00:04.7	2788	26	4.7	100.2	0.04
00:05.2	2884	24	4.99	100.2	0.04
00:05.7	2960	24	5.42	100.2	0.04
00:06.2	3072	23	5.78	100.2	0.04
00:06.6	3228	22	6.47	100.2	0.04
00:07.1	3344	21	7.45	100.2	0.04
00:07.5	3496	19	8.32	100.2	0.06
00:08.0	3700	15	10.34	100.2	0.76
00:08.5	3908	9	12.18	100.2	0.9
00:09.5	4368	8	13.68	100.2	0.92
00:09.9	4604	9	14.39	100.2	0.92
00:10.4	4812	10	14.84	100.2	0.94
00:10.9	5032	10	15.47	100.2	0.94
00:11.4	5200	10	16.03	100.2	0.94
00:11.8	5420	11	16.42	100.2	0.94
00:12.3	5620	9	17.02	99.41	0.94
00:12.8	5788	10	17.69	92.73	0.96
00:13.2	5696	11	18.09	64.05	0.98
00:14.2	4288	31	1.39	5.11	0.52
00:14.6	4236	34	1.09	6.29	0.04
00:15.1	4176	34	0.33	5.11	0.14
00:15.6	4136	34	0.33	5.11	0.26

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

Ok, I'm leanring things about myself........I have no balls......

Man this thing is starting to pull like crazy and then I get scared an shut it down.......

so this is with the boost turned up to what I thought would be 20psi.....I hit 19psi in fourth gear but when I did the 3rd gear pull the boost gauge only registered 18psi but I did show a little more air than my "last log".

AFC stayed the same -2 -8 -14 -20 -24 -28 -28 -30

I see the timing got pulled at 5620 but that was when I started to let off the throttle.....I wonder if that had anything to do with it......o2 are looking better..

Guess I will add 2% between 5k to 7k to be safe and see If I can stomach a pull past 6k.

Time	RPM	Timing	Airflow	TPS	O2 1 Bank 1
00:00.5	2256	22	3.69	50.69	0.06
00:00.9	2312	23	3.51	88.8	0.04
00:01.4	2384	27	3.34	100.2	0.04
00:01.9	2412	27	3.47	100.2	0.04
00:02.3	2464	27	3.65	100.2	0.04
00:02.8	2524	27	3.76	100.2	0.04
00:03.3	2576	28	3.93	100.2	0.04
00:04.3	2696	27	4.12	100.2	0.04
00:04.7	2788	26	4.7	100.2	0.04
00:05.2	2884	24	4.99	100.2	0.04
00:05.7	2960	24	5.42	100.2	0.04
00:06.2	3072	23	5.78	100.2	0.04
00:06.6	3228	22	6.47	100.2	0.04
00:07.1	3344	21	7.45	100.2	0.04
00:07.5	3496	19	8.32	100.2	0.06
00:08.0	3700	15	10.34	100.2	0.76
00:08.5	3908	9	12.18	100.2	0.9
00:09.5	4368	8	13.68	100.2	0.92
00:09.9	4604	9	14.39	100.2	0.92
00:10.4	4812	10	14.84	100.2	0.94
00:10.9	5032	10	15.47	100.2	0.94
00:11.4	5200	10	16.03	100.2	0.94
00:11.8	5420	11	16.42	100.2	0.94
00:12.3	5620	9	17.02	99.41	0.94
00:12.8	5788	10	17.69	92.73	0.96
00:13.2	5696	11	18.09	64.05	0.98
00:14.2	4288	31	1.39	5.11	0.52
00:14.6	4236	34	1.09	6.29	0.04
00:15.1	4176	34	0.33	5.11	0.14
00:15.6	4136	34	0.33	5.11	0.26

I know the feeling... whenever i let off the gas briefly in a run it does cause a minor spike in knock which results in timing pulled. You def. need a good clean run to redline in 3rd to get it tuned (which sucks around here b/c all we have is 55mph roads and a trooper about every damn mile).

I would go ahead and bump it to 20psi then add 1% @ 5K just to see if it will help.

 

[daren_p]

It shows I'm pretty rich also.....would that be "rich" knock......or timing being pulled

because I'm running rich?

Yes timing can be pulled from being to rich, but since the second log you posted (previous datalog) is slightly richer, -26 vs -28 in the most recent & it didn't pull timing I would say you were on the lean side. Now after reading your last post, if you let off, even abit in either of the logs, they aren't any good to judge whats going on. You need to do a full third gear pull from say about 2500 to redline wot the whole time to get accurate & comparable data. Your last log was looking good, till you let off at 5600.

 

[CanadianTSi]

You tend to hit higher boost in 4th and 5th as there is more load on the motor.

I would add like 3% from 4k to 5k, looks a little lean there.

Also you seem to spool a little late, I would check for exhaust leaks pre turbo and boost leaks.

Turn the boost up a smidge more and do a full 3rd gear pull...don't be a sissy

 

[madman]

I turned up the boost.....I saw it hit 19psi then slowly dropped to 17.8 by the
time I let of the gas.....with a 50trim???????

Anyways

AFC
-8 -12 -14 -16 -22 -26 -26 -26

This is actually my second log since my last post...I'm just leaving the other out.
It looked good but this looks better and I made a few more adjustments.


2972 25 05.04 .04
3260 25 06.25 .06
3536 20 07.37 .06
3724 14 09.76 .82
4072 06 12.39 .96
4316 04 14.48 .96
4560 06 14.79 .96
4824 07 15.39 .96
5036 09 15.79 .96
5516 09 16.36 .96
5720 09 17.11 .96
5924 11 18.23 .96
6232 12 19.37 .96
6564 12 19.58 .96
6760 13 19.91 .98

I think I'll turn up the boost a little .....still curious why my boost dropped off

 

[CanadianTSi]

You could try tigthening your Internal wasgate arm( if it's adjustable) or shimming the wastegate with some springs.

Also once again you may have an exhaust leak, pull off your heatshield and check for any black marks around the head and turbo and tigthen all the bolts while your at it.

 

[madman]

You could try tigthening your Internal wasgate arm( if it's adjustable) or shimming the wastegate with some springs.

Also once again you may have an exhaust leak, pull off your heatshield and check for any black marks around the head and turbo and tigthen all the bolts while your at it.

Ya, now that I think about it isn't it the rs49t suppose to spool around 3500rpm... especially
since I'm running a blowthru setup with a full 3" intake pipe from the filter to the turbo?

I checked the head, ex. mani. and turbo..... no signs of any leaks.

EDIT.... I just talked to AGP regarding the boost drop and they said the same thing about trying to adjust the
wastegate arm.

 

[daren_p]

Looks like your heading in the right direction, shorten that wg arm and do another pull. Now one other thing is your mom driving the car when you do these pulls, letting off at 6700 . But seriously it would be better if you could get a full pull to the redline so you can see what kind of total advance you will get.