titanium rods vs. steel rods.

[ProjectTalon92]

i'm in the process of building my motor and car now, but i don't know what to do when it comes to rods. a buddy who knows his stuff about building engines, said he would prefer steel rods. i just wanted to ask all of you which would be better for my application (see my profile) and i've heard about driving with aluminum rods, but i know i don't want aluminum. this is one of the many choices i haven't come to. thanks

 

[absolute_DSM]

You must be makin some money of youre thinkin about titanium.

EDIT - When I look over the profile, you dont mess around. Whats wrong with the Crowers?

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...-rods-your-pants-you-just-happy-see-them.html

A discussion from the bottom of this page Seriously, for the price, you may just want to use steel rods. I read your other thread discussing your goals, and understand that you want a 9 second daily driver, which is why I would say go with steel. After all, this motor WILL blow up at some point. Whether it's 20k miles down the road, 200 miles, or whatever, it will happen. Because of this, don't spend more on titanium, 'cause it won't be worth it. Good luck with your venture though. There are a lot of steel rods out there that are more than capable of handling 700-800 horsepower, how long they last just depends on how you drive, and your tune. A great tuner can have a 6-bolt last with 475 awhp on a stock bottom end, and a poor one can blow up a $10,000 motor with poor tuning. Back to rods though. Manley is a pretty reputable company, Brian Crower has a stroker setup for 4G63's, although I don't know much about that. And Eagle rods are popular, although somewhat debated by the DSM community. I'd recommend an H-beam over an I-beam, because even though it is heavier, it can withstand more of a twisting force, as explained here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/158975-those-titanium-rods-your-pants-you-just-happy-see-them.html

The best people to speak to on the subject of which steel rods would be most suitable for your application would be big name shops, or even the rod companies themselves. You may just want to call around and see what people have to say, as I'm sure most companies are more than eager enough to help out.

 

[ProjectTalon92]

there's nothing wrong with the crowers, and i've been told from a couple people that they would go with steel rods.
And yeah, i'm not playing around
i understand people have different preferences, but all in all, are steel rods stronger than titanium rods? and as far as I-beam, or H-beam rods go, which would be better for my application? i'm not building a motor to just run the piss out of it just cause i think it's built to take it, i want a VERY fun car to drive, but i want it to be able to put down some good numbers at the track.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

To be able to form an opinion as to which is better, you have to understand the properties of both metals, and how they handle heat, and all the forces that rods go through. Did you read the links I posted? The H-beam would be better for your application, as you're building a stroker, as opposed to a higher revving 2.0. Steel H-beams would be my choice.

 

[T is for TURBO]

To be able to form an opinion as to which is better, you have to understand the properties of both metals, and how they handle heat, and all the forces that rods go through. Did you read the links I posted? The H-beam would be better for your application, as you're building a stroker, as opposed to a higher revving 2.0. Steel H-beams would be my choice.

I agree with you.

H-beam rods will be the best choise for a stroker. Heavier, but the increased cross sectional aream makes it MUCH stronger. Stroker motors generally have an agressive rod angle, causeing much more stress on the bearings, crank, and the rod itself. As for steel versus titanium, like mentioned about, you will want to look at which handles heat better. Steel handles heat very well, but I'm not sure about titanium, I have never had to deal with titanium before so I don't know its properties, and I feel that that is what you want to look into.

good luck getting into the 9s

-Shawn

 

[ProjectTalon92]

i'm going to need all the luck i can get if i want to get into the 9's.
i under stand what you are saying about the steel and the titanium rods, i'll still have to do a little searching when it comes to the H-beams and the I-beams to see what is best for my application. but any idea as to why in the hell the titanium ones are 400+ A ROD?

 

[T is for TURBO]

Yeah, heh, titanium is expensive. Not much you can do about that...

The price of titanium metal powder (99.95%) is about $100/lb

a 1"x1"x12" piece of pure (grade 2) Titanum is $164.4

I work in engineering and we calculate that 1 hour of machining cost between 100-150 dollars.

It adds up quick

 

[ProjectTalon92]

the rods are the only thing i'm unsure about in this whole bottum end build. i don't want to fork out 400+ for a set of rods when i could get a set that is stronger and CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER.
another question i have is, why does it cost so much to machine the titanium. it wouldn't make any since to have to pay that much if the metal isn't as hard as steel.

 

[meliketoball]

Titanium is just expensive. Go with the traditional steel rods that have been proved again and again by..everyone. Good luck.

 

[_DeS_]

Titanium is just expensive. Go with the traditional steel rods that have been proved again and again by..everyone. Good luck.

But wouldn't it be nice to say "I have titanium rods" Come on that sounds cool
But seriously Steel rods would be your best bet because once the motor goes POP your to have to buy them again, and $400 each is not excatly cheap

 

[ProjectTalon92]

yeah i agree, that would be sweet to be able to say "i have titanium rods", but like you said, they're not exact cheap. would like to go with the proven steel rods time and time again. there are alot of things that few people know about that gives them that "edge" on the race track and on the street (daily driving not street racing)
i've done some research on the steel rods, and i think that's what i'm going to go with, but like i said, there are those couple of things that few know about that give them that "edge"

 

[vernvision]

Titanium vs Steel

Titanium- Lighter than steel, displaces heat much more effiently which decreases the chances of spinning a bearing do to friction and oil break down from fuel which you will have with 700hp, stronger than steel and aluminum, but so much more $$$ than steel or aluminum. If you have money to burn and you don't care then Titanium for sure. Crower rods I have seen on to fuel application holding 1200hp but the engines don't last very long.

I have seen billet aluminum that is stronger than most steels so don't be fooled by it. Its quallity and strength greatly depend on how it was prepared. It's main weakness is the metalurgy methods and that it is not as hard as steel. It displaces heat much more effiently than steel or stainless.

I have welded titanium once and it is similar to aluminum except much harder. It take a tremendous about of heat from a TIG welder to weld a very thin piece. This is why it is used extensively in the aircraft industry and in aircraft engines. Your engine only turns at a max of about 7000-8500 rpm before your valves will float or the crank will walk and kaboom! An aircraft jet engine can turn in an excess of 100,000 rpm and produce 10 times the heat that you exhaust manifold can stand before it melts down. Ok now then in order to fly you need to have the strongest and lightest as well as most capable of resonating heat as effeintly as possible. The answer is Titanium. Titanium is so much more superior than steel at achieving this goal that with out it we would not have exceeded the sound barrier.

A 700hp daily driver is achievable but how much do you want to spend? You are not going to get there with any iron block or internally lined head. It is hard enough keeping a 500hp beast as a daily driver using the basic iron block dsm heads. You are going to be spending like $25-40,000 on your engine to make it a daily driver with 700hp. I don't mean to be critical but your dreaming if you think that you can do that and drive it every day without spending the rest of the night fixing stuff.

 

[_DeS_]

Titanium vs Steel

Titanium- Lighter than steel, displaces heat much more effiently which decreases the chances of spinning a bearing do to friction and oil break down from fuel which you will have with 700hp, stronger than steel and aluminum, but so much more $$$ than steel or aluminum. If you have money to burn and you don't care then Titanium for sure. Crower rods I have seen on to fuel application holding 1200hp but the engines don't last very long.

I have seen billet aluminum that is stronger than most steels so don't be fooled by it. Its quallity and strength greatly depend on how it was prepared. It's main weakness is the metalurgy methods and that it is not as hard as steel. It displaces heat much more effiently than steel or stainless.

I have welded titanium once and it is similar to aluminum except much harder. It take a tremendous about of heat from a TIG welder to weld a very thin piece. This is why it is used extensively in the aircraft industry and in aircraft engines. Your engine only turns at a max of about 7000-8500 rpm before your valves will float or the crank will walk and kaboom! An aircraft jet engine can turn in an excess of 100,000 rpm and produce 10 times the heat that you exhaust manifold can stand before it melts down. Ok now then in order to fly you need to have the strongest and lightest as well as most capable of resonating heat as effeintly as possible. The answer is Titanium. Titanium is so much more superior than steel at achieving this goal that with out it we would not have exceeded the sound barrier.

A 700hp daily driver is achievable but how much do you want to spend? You are not going to get there with any iron block or internally lined head. It is hard enough keeping a 500hp beast as a daily driver using the basic iron block dsm heads. You are going to be spending like $25-40,000 on your engine to make it a daily driver with 700hp. I don't mean to be critical but your dreaming if you think that you can do that and drive it every day without spending the rest of the night fixing stuff.

Great info

 

[twicks69]

The key reason why most turbo cars do NOT run titanium rods, is not the price (which is the second key reason)...it is because they are much more reliable in an NA application where they are not being succepted to high boost applications, along with a much greater chance for detonation. Titanium rods are light, hard, and brittle -- they cannot handle detonation.

We have spoken about rod choices in PM's. I still strongly reccomend a set of Crowers, Pauters, Manleys, or Eagles.

They last a long time, are greatly less expensive than titanium or aluminum rods, and are a great choice for a street or race application. They also require much less overall machine work to be installed properly.

Aluminums are fine also, but are more expensive to do -- the Groden (GRP) and MGP aluminum rods use a serrated rod cap with a dowel in the center of the rod bearing, requiring the machining of the rod bearings to accept the dowel in the rod cap -- this dowel is in the rod cap to prevent spinning a bearing. I would also reccomend going with either a Kiggly engine girdle or with Pro Gram Billet Main Caps if using the aluminum rods in a 6-bolt block.

The Kiggly engine girdle can be seen here: Engine Girdle

Instructions of what it requires to be installed are here:
Instructions and machine work required

The Pro Gram Billet Main Caps can be seen here:Pro Gram Billet Steel Main Caps

Either way, machinework is required. The Kiggly girdle requires a line hone with the girdle installed, and ARP main studs. The Pro Gram Billet Main Caps require custom machining, and ARP main studs. The Aluminum rods as well as most other rods WILL require clearancing of the rotating assembly, and of the oil pan (Grodens and MGP for sure). Even the Pauters and Carillos and Manleys will require a little grinding in spots.

I would also stay away from the 102mm stroke you are looking at. Yes, it will make a good street setup, but it will be severely limited to less than 8200rpms safely. It might go better than that for revs, but you will need to reconsider some of your engineering and goals. RPM's vs. mid-range.


My personal choice for a RACE 6-bolt would be Grodens with a Kiggly girdle, and a set of Ceramic Coated Ross Pistons on an Eagle 2.0L crank with a GT4094R or a GT42R with a 108mm exducer compressor wheel upgrade.

For a street motor easily capable of 700+whp, I have already told you that reccomendation -- Eagle or Crower Rods with Ross Pistons.

 

[vernvision]

Yes that is excellent info on building a strong lower on a factory iron block thanks for that post.

For a street motor easily capable of 700+whp, I have already told you that reccomendation -- Eagle or Crower Rods with Ross Pistons.

Yes a street motor but not a daily driver like he talking about. If you were driving that sucker everyday in the heat of summer how long do you think your motor is going to last?

I checked your vehicle profile and you are running race gas, slicks many other not street legal mods. I doubt you drive that beast everyday to work and if you do then you would have a tow truck following you everywhere. I think you have a nice car and are very knowlegable about engine building based on the info you provided.

I run around 400-500 hp depending on factors like gas and altitude. There are so many things that loosen up even after short trips on these modded cars because they were never designed to push the power and idle hard with radical cams that we are putting on them. I would have to do a whole bunch of more mods and dump tons $$$ to make it a daily driver and I ain't running even close to what you are or he hope too.

If you are talking a DD then you have to account for more than just motor and drivetrain but a whole lot of other stuff and work as well. I knew someone who in 1995 was pusing 800hp on a 90 gsx well after many motors, trannys, axels, gears etc the unibody gave up and bent so bad he had to junk his chasis. He had lots of money and that was one of his many toys at the time. I am begining to have the same problem with my unibody. I am going to have to put a sub frame on. In case any of you out there are running huge HP and torque and you didn't know this when your doors start to not open correctly it might be to late to get it back straight.

 

[twicks69]

Yes that is excellent info on building a strong lower on a factory iron block thanks for that post.



Yes a street motor but not a daily driver like he talking about. If you were driving that sucker everyday in the heat of summer how long do you think your motor is going to last?

I checked your vehicle profile and you are running race gas, slicks many other not street legal mods. I doubt you drive that beast everyday to work and if you do then you would have a tow truck following you everywhere. I think you have a nice car and are very knowlegable about engine building based on the info you provided.

Actually, I ran my exact setup for more than 2 years of continuous street use; other than the snowy days or heavy rain days where I took my 4Runner or my old Talon. The car does 500AWHP/460tq on 22psi and pump gas. It is quite streetable; and the only factors between race vs. street trim with the car are me switching my rims/tires, switching my tunes, and changing the gas in the tank. The engine has well over 30,000 miles on the street in its current state. I began running the motor in September of 2005, and refreshed it in April of 2007 with new bearings and rings--it only needed bearings because of the continuous high boost I run.

 

[turboglenn]

Steel H beam FTW! AS for a "fun to drive" "9 second street car", i think that's an oxymoron. The faster my car gets (consistant low 12's at the moment @ 19PSI, with the MPH for deep 11's easy if i could hook up) the less fun it is to drive on the street beause you have to start doing everything a little early with bigger turbos and you have to rev harder and concentrate more on the launch to keep from bogging but not roast the tires. then winding the motor up enough to get going in traffic with a large turbo is always anoying after the first bit of "WOW" wears off. Just because they take so long to get spooled up in heavy traffic and it makes the car seem slow when you can't get into the power band at all because you're bumper to bumper with a soccer mom and some company fleet truck that's going exactly the speed limit.

Good luck on your venture into the 9's, and post vids when you make it. It's just that every car i've EVER had , the faster it gets there's a point where they all start to become so race oriented that they are a pain to drive on regular streets, at least in daily driver applications. Now a weekend warrior car would be different since you only have to put up with noise, rattles and slipping a 2900lb 6 puck clutch at every light when you want to go out and waste some vettes and vipers at night when traffic is light.

 

[vernvision]

Actually, I ran my exact setup for more than 2 years of continuous street use; other than the snowy days or heavy rain days where I took my 4Runner or my old Talon. The car does 500AWHP/460tq on 22psi and pump gas. It is quite streetable; and the only factors between race vs. street trim with the car are me switching my rims/tires, switching my tunes, and changing the gas in the tank. The engine has well over 30,000 miles on the street in its current state. I began running the motor in September of 2005, and refreshed it in April of 2007 with new bearings and rings--it only needed bearings because of the continuous high boost I run.

Ok I can except a DD that has 500AWHP on pump gas because I did it myself for a short time but it depends on how you define it. 2 years isn't a whole lot of time if you are using it as a DD. I would expect a DD to be at least 5-7 years without major overhaul as the cost and time would be great. I went 87,000 miles on a motor running a big 16G ported and 18psi of boost at seal level and believe me I drove it with my foot in the floor. In fact I got a ticket from the CHP where they wrote the ticket at 85+ because I was going so fast that they never clocked my exact speed which was way up there. If I hadn't waited for my turbo to cool down in the Safeway parking lot they would have never caught me. Damn heat soak! Anyway I guess you can make anything streetable or a DD but what is it defined as. Cost vs. Lifetime. You could dump a small fortune in car to keep it on the road. Where I live I have grades that exceed 12% that go for 15 miles with out a break and in the summer when air temps hover around 95° I doubt that your car will last as long. I cannot run a FMIC and operate the vehicle as a dd unless severe mods are made or the car will overheat. I like AC so I give up power for comfort. If I was strictly racing then it would be different. Just food for thought not made to attack one's intelligence or experience.

The best advice that I ever got on this side was when someone said " Don't beleive me do your homework find out for yourself."

 

[siceclipse]

Anyone ever read up on these???

FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

 

[twicks69]

Anyone ever read up on these???

FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

I was just talking about them in Post #15.

Great rods! But they aren't "drop-in" by any means. Any rod requires clearancing, but this one also needs special machining of the rod bearings to accept the rod cap.

 

[ProjectTalon92]

okay, i understand what everyone is getting at about the titanium rods. i also have a couple other cranks in mind that i may use so i don't have to sacrifice a whole lot of top end. and just for the record, twicks and i have talked quite a bit about my project, AND THAT DUDE KNOWS HIS STUFF! Also, i've looked at that Kiggy main girdle, it took me forever to find a main girdle for the 4G63 i knew that if i wanted to even get close to my goals, that would be needed. i've read the instructions on it, but what does it mean when they are talking about lining.....? i'm not sure what else it says.

P.S. Thanks twicks for all your help!

 

[twicks69]

No problem man, that is what I am here for!

 

[vernvision]

Anyone ever read up on these???

FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

I would be very careful with dealling with this outfit from my personal experience I had with Darren and his associates. I would not reccomend them or their work. If you want the scoop then send me a private message I will show and tell you what happened. Otherwise, Cryogenic hardening is a scam. I have studied metallurgy and unless the cryogenic proccess is done at the time the item is forged or cast before the molecular structure has set it will not benefit the metal whatsoever and in fact if the metal is super cooled and not brought back to room tempature correctly in can cause internal flaws. Do some research on the effects of equipment used in polar areas and that is not even getting as close to what they are doing. You can find plenty of factual information on this by searching the internet. Anytime, any of you are dealing with people making high performance parts make sure you check out what they are saying is factual or it could be a mistake that costs you lots of money it did me and I am not proud of it. If I were going to choose a shop it would be Bushur Racing. He is no BS and won't screw you!

 

[ProjectTalon92]

wow! that is honestly the first time i have heard anyone say anything bad about FFWD let alone hearing something about Darren. I've talked to him and he knows his stuff also. He's been nothing but helpfull. I can't say that i would agree with you about FFWD or Darren.