Tires and Alignment today.....opinions needed

[Throwback23]

So i went to get some new tires and an alignment today.... it didn't go as i had hoped, for some reason my cars never fare well when it comes to alignment time. Everything seemed ok but on my way out was told i needed a camber kit due to the -1.7 up front and -3.0 degrees in the rear(washer fix coming soon). When i got home i realized the toe on one of my corners wasn't even adjusted and was at .32. I called back and was told that his impact couldn't loosen the bolt so he left it.... thanks Schuab, anyways i got it loose with minimal effort (no joke) i took it back where the man "correctly adjusted" it. The numbers on the printout look fine but for some reason the right rear side looks like it still has noticeably more toe then the other....there is a 5 degree difference from the left rear (still in spec) but is that enough to make it look as weird as it does? I am about to load some pics and if i could get opinions please let me know if i am wrong on this, or if it does in fact look weird....thanks

It may very well be difficult to tell from my pictures but its worth a try.....

First time in

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Second time in

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Both sides

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[Dude3000zx]

I have the same amount of camber in the front as you,
As long as you get the alighnment tech to set zero toe in the front you shouldnt have a problem with tire wear with that amount of front camber . For the rear just do the washer mod.

I have mine set like this and have zero tire wear so id recommend it.

Also, are your rear upper arm bushings okay? the big bushing that sits right above your tire if you look up in the rear fender well. if that bushing is blown it could affect the toe.

just some helpful advise for ya.

 

[boostinRWD]

Chances are if you need a camber kit,,to get it in spec
then they just said to hell with it.
Don't think some shops will adjust it if they can't get it
right.
It like doing a job half-arsed,,,why do it.

 

[gofer]

You should take a picture of the alignment print out as I'm having a hard time following what you're saying...

 

[Dude3000zx]

Your camber could just be making it look kinda weird like that. after you get the washer mod should be okay as long as your rear bushings are okay.

 

[Throwback23]

Chances are if you need a camber kit,,to get it in spec
then they just said to hell with it.
Don't think some shops will adjust it if they can't get it
right.
It like doing a job half-arsed,,,why do it.

Yea i hear that, but my answer would have to be because they charged for it me . My whole idea going into it was to get the toe to an acceptable place and decide on camber kit options once i knew how far out of spec it was. About the bushing, ill defiantly have to check them to see what their condition is but off the top of my head i don't remember seeing anything very worn when i installed the tokico setup.

 

[Dude3000zx]

btw, how much of a drop front and back are you running?

 

[Throwback23]

I have the tokico hp combo which says 1.75in drop if i remember correctly but id say it looks lower the that.

 

[gofer]

Notice alignment specs change with wheel diameter? You should also take this into account when you get it aligned.

From the FSM:

Front Suspension
FWD (with 16-inch wheels)
Camber: -0°20'±30' (-.834° to .167&#176
Toe - in mm (in.): 0±3 (0±.12)
Caster: 4°40'±1°30' (3.167° to 6.167&#176

AWD, FWD (with 14-inch wheels)
Camber: -0°05'±30' (-.583° to .417&#176
Toe - in mm (in.): 0±3 (0±.12)
Caster: 4°40'±1°30' (3.167° to 6.167&#176


Rear Suspension
FWD (with 16-inch wheels)
Camber: -1°40'±30' (-2.167° to -1.167&#176
Toe - in mm (in.): 3±3 (.12±.12)

AWD, FWD (with 14-inch wheels)
Camber: -1°20'±30' (-1.83° to -.833&#176
Toe - in mm (in.): 3±3 (.12±.12)


Decimal degrees = whole number of degrees, plus minutes divided by 60, plus seconds divided by 3600

Example (AWD rear camber):
Decimal degrees = -1+(20/60)+0 = -.67°

There is no doubt you need a camber kit on the rear, however, a better photo would be from the rear of the car so we could actually compare both the rear tires. Something like this...

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[chadillac2820]

Notice your toe is.within tolerance. That is all a minimum wage oil change/alignment tech will try to achieve. If its green he won't even bother. I suggest you talk with the alignment tech and tell him what you want your angles at

 

[jtmcinder]

The small differences in toe are not a big deal. The main problem is the rear camber, but you seem to be getting ready to fix that. (I'd get about 1 to 1.2 degrees.) The second thing that bugs me is the front toe-out. If you're an autocrosser, leave it as it is; you'll love it. But if you aren't, then that's not worth the tire-wear. Remember, folks, it's toe-out that kills tires the fastest. The third thing that I don't like is the amount of rear toe-in. A little is nice, because it helps stabilize the car under hard braking, but a lot hurts gas mileage, handling, and the tires.

When you have the camber kit installed, go back and ask for zero front toe and about half that amount of rear toe-in. Maybe go to a place that really knows what it's doing.

 

[Throwback23]

So due to lighting and my mud flaps these pictures arnt great...

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Almost the same pics as first just further over

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Rear

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[HighpsiaddicT]

hmm looks kind of off to me as said before once they get it in the green they could care less

 

[Throwback23]

As of right now my main concern is making sure I don't mess my new tires up. I work most of everyday until sat when I will do the washers and take it back to schuab. Am I ok to drive to work and back with this alignment or should I find a different means of transportation? I would say its a combined 100 miles until sat if I do drive.

 

[gofer]

Take JT's advice on the alignment and if you need help with those rear Rally Armor flaps PM me and I'll give you my advice on how to mount them, correctly.

 

[Throwback23]

Will do, their mounted legit...i just folded them over so the tires were visible

The small differences in toe are not a big deal. The main problem is the rear camber, but you seem to be getting ready to fix that. (I'd get about 1 to 1.2 degrees.) The second thing that bugs me is the front toe-out. If you're an autocrosser, leave it as it is; you'll love it. But if you aren't, then that's not worth the tire-wear. Remember, folks, it's toe-out that kills tires the fastest. The third thing that I don't like is the amount of rear toe-in. A little is nice, because it helps stabilize the car under hard braking, but a lot hurts gas mileage, handling, and the tires.

When you have the camber kit installed, go back and ask for zero front toe and about half that amount of rear toe-in. Maybe go to a place that really knows what it's doing.

Would you say ill be ok with the front camber as is?

 

[Fast-Orange]

I would be concerned with your SAI measurment, you have 2.1 deg difference side to side. Usually as a rule of thumb .5 deg is max, your going to have cornering issues. Did they do a steering suspension inspection? Im guessing you have some ball joint/bushing/bent frame or knuckles etc issues going on that should be addresed.
I had similar camber specs and im running 18'' rims and it took the inside edge off my tires. I used these up front raybestoes 611-1153 and they also have an updated part with more adjustment 611-1184. In the rear i used these so i didnt have to piss around with swaping washers in and out 611-1093. They actually dont show it but they use single solid thicker washers instead of all the small ones put together awesome kits to get it dialed in perfect.

 

[Throwback23]

Wow, that just caught my attention....here's the first printout I got this morning before I had them redo it. My sai wasn't that different.

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[Fast-Orange]

Wow, that just caught my attention....here's the first printout I got this morning before I had them redo it. My sai wasn't that different.

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This is your pre alignment print out? Something is wrong why are your specs so different from your last alignment? Im guessing its an older style machine with the long arms that read off each other and not a 3D aligner with camera's on the cross. Either their machine needs a calibration, the tech is doing something wrong or like i said you have some steering suspension issues. I do understand you loosened the rear off so thats why the rear is out. Im guessing this tech tried using his impact on the wrong side and tried turning the whole cam bolt and not the nut on the back side. Which makes me think he must be very inexperienced.

 

[Throwback23]

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These were actually the specs after the first alignment I got that day, they did it on the same rack so I'm really not sure what's going on.. the guy didn't seem thrilled I was there again so that may have come into play but who knows....the print out I posted in the first post was the second alignment just hours later. I ordered some offset bushings for the front and will do the diy camber for the front once they come in the mail, then off for another alignment.

 

[ricktb]

i would cut out the rusty bolts and replace them, ensure all your bushings and ball joints are reasonably tight, if not replace them, then you can work on your camber issues, and finally take it back for re alignment.

 

[jtmcinder]

Wait. You left the first time with .10* of front toe-out (i.e., -.10* total front toe) and then came back after doing nothing to the front of the car and the machine said that you now had 1.21* of front toe-in???

If the above is accurate, there are only three possibilities: the flashy things were installed incorrectly at least one of the two times, they didn't tighten the steering adjusters the first time, or you had an accident between the two alignments. On the assumption that you would have told us if you crashed the car, what this really says is that you should never, ever, go back to that shop.

On the other hand, if you did mess with the front between the two alignments, what did you do?

 

[nickk90]

That right rear tire diffidently looks like it has something wrong with it to me . I wonder if it is out of alignment. You can easily tell that tire has a ton of toe in from those pics

 

[Throwback23]

Wait. You left the first time with .10* of front toe-out (i.e., -.10* total front toe) and then came back after doing nothing to the front of the car and the machine said that you now had 1.21* of front toe-in???

If the above is accurate, there are only three possibilities: the flashy things were installed incorrectly at least one of the two times, they didn't tighten the steering adjusters the first time, or you had an accident between the two alignments. On the assumption that you would have told us if you crashed the car, what this really says is that you should never, ever, go back to that shop.

On the other hand, if you did mess with the front between the two alignments, what did you do?

The very first time i went in is when i had 1.21* total of front toe-in, then they adjusted it to 0.04* total. Six hours later i went in and it said i was at -0.06* total, the only thing i did was break that rear bolt loose in between alignments. Im far from a pro when it comes to alignments but shouldnt your setting stay the same, almost everything that was adjusted changed from one printout to the other, if you look at the front left tor for example...initially i came in with 0.40* of toe, left with 0.07 of toe....after 10 miles and a few hours of sitting i have 0.01*of toe, is that really normal?

lastly i thought the right rear looked different then the other side and the machine agrees, saying it has 4 more* of toe in. Should 4* be something that noticeable?

First post adjusted to clear any confusion.

 

[Fast-Orange]

The very first time i went in is when i had 1.21* total of front toe-in, then they adjusted it to 0.04* total. Six hours later i went in and it said i was at -0.06* total, the only thing i did was break that rear bolt loose in between alignments. Im far from a pro when it comes to alignments but shouldnt your setting stay the same, almost everything that was adjusted changed from one printout to the other, if you look at the front left tor for example...initially i came in with 0.40* of toe, left with 0.07 of toe....after 10 miles and a few hours of sitting i have 0.01*of toe, is that really normal?

lastly i thought the right rear looked different then the other side and the machine agrees, saying it has 4 more* of toe in. Should 4* be something that noticeable?

First post adjusted to clear any confusion.

I repeat did they do a steering suspension inspection. If you have worn out components it could easily explain why youe specs are always different. They are also using an old style machine which unless operated properly and meticulously you can have variations everytime. Regardless the lack of detail in this alignment wouldnt put alot of trust in me to do a steering suspension inspection properly on these cars.
Also notice how your second printout is the one with your bad SAI measurment.