Timing job

[Kyle93]

So my timing was off a tooth on the intake side so i took it to a shop to get fixed, guy originally quoted $50 then a week later when I picked it up he charged $362. I was mad but it started up and ran good and I had vacuum. The belt did seem a little loose so I wanted to take it back the next day. later that night when I was driving it went down to 600-700 idle and almost no vacuum, it died pulling into a parking lot so i started it up again and parked it. An hour later I came back outside from the gym and went to start it and it would turn over but that's about it. my buddy and I checked the timing and the crank is off a real good amount (3 or 4 teeth?) I had it towed back to the shop and the guy is trying to say I threw a rod and it sheered the teeth of the belt on the crank. I am wondering if he is just trying to make stuff up to try covering his tracks since he might not of tensioned it correctly or what? I don't know what to think.

 

[WES_393]

My father is saying we should have a reputable shop do it incase kyle wants to take the guy to court to get a refund.

+1 If you plan to take it to court then have a different shop at least inspect the car. Then just have them give you a price quote and possible reason for failure. It seems to me the tensioner was either set wrong or was worn out. Either way that's the mechanics fault, not yours and he is liable for any damages as a result.

I agree that the generic brand belt was not the best idea, but I doubt that was the cause especially after such a short time. OEM is always the safest bet for a belt but Gates, HKS, and a few other companies have proven themselves worthy as well. Next time around replace the tensioner too.

Good luck guys!

 

[Jon91TSi]

That's funny, i've been installing gates and many other brands on cars for years.

This horse is just about beaten to death.. Gates makes a great belt, I run the blue gates racing belt on my red car (trusting this belt to a $1,000+ head), OEM on my other. However the "cheapy" brand belts, such as Dayco, Contitech, Topline, PartsDinosaur, No-name eBay brand, etc. are all proven to be garbage. Search this and all the other DSM forums you will see many instances of these belts snapping without cause(new belts), teeth separating from the backing, inconsitent reinforcement within the belt, etc. The list goes on and on. The only reason these belts are used is to cut corners for cheaper cost. There is absolutely no reason not to run an OEM belt, or belts such as OEM,Greddy, PE, HKS, Gates, etc. When it comes down to it, spending $40 more for an OEM t-belt over a parts house brand when a new head or possibly worse if a valve were to break off and mangle the cylinder walls and piston is enough insurance for me.

I personally would never install an inferior timing or balance shaft belt on a customers car, for my piece of mind, or theirs. This also applies for the tensioners and idler.

I understand DSM's are about cheap speed and performance, but a timing belt is definitely an area where buck shiouldn't be saved. Plain and simple.

 

[Kyle93]

+1 If you plan to take it to court then have a different shop at least inspect the car. Then just have them give you a price quote and possible reason for failure. It seems to me the tensioner was either set wrong or was worn out. Either way that's the mechanics fault, not yours and he is liable for any damages as a result.

I agree that the generic brand belt was not the best idea, but I doubt that was the cause especially after such a short time. OEM is always the safest bet for a belt but Gates, HKS, and a few other companies have proven themselves worthy as well. Next time around replace the tensioner too.

Good luck guys!

Thats what I think I will do once I get some money, I pretty muched paid $362 for someone to smash my valves. My question now is wont a lawsuit be way more then being out the $362? Hes not budging at all that its my fault that i didn't replace the tensioner. I would think any legit shop would tell you if the tensioner didn't seem right?

 

[ed1380]

.
That could be part of your problem. You never ever and I emphasize ever use a parts store brand timing belt. You are setting yourself up for failure.

Funny how that's all I ever use and I've never had one fail.

This horse is just about beaten to death.. Gates makes a great belt, I run the blue gates racing belt on my red car (trusting this belt to a $1,000+ head), OEM on my other. However the "cheapy" brand belts, such as Dayco, Contitech, Topline, PartsDinosaur, No-name eBay brand, etc. are all proven to be garbage. Search this and all the other DSM forums you will see many instances of these belts snapping without cause(new belts), teeth separating from the backing, inconsitent reinforcement within the belt, etc. The list goes on and on. The only reason these belts are used is to cut corners for cheaper cost. There is absolutely no reason not to run an OEM belt, or belts such as OEM,Greddy, PE, HKS, Gates, etc. When it comes down to it, spending $40 more for an OEM t-belt over a parts house brand when a new head or possibly worse if a valve were to break off and mangle the cylinder walls and piston is enough insurance for me.

I personally would never install an inferior timing or balance shaft belt on a customers car, for my piece of mind, or theirs. This also applies for the tensioners and idler.

I understand DSM's are about cheap speed and performance, but a timing belt is definitely an area where buck shiouldn't be saved. Plain and simple.

Just a heads up that the topline belt is a contitech belt. And contitech is an oem belt. Only difference is that contitech is oem for Vw/Audi.

 

[hazmat6135]

just an fyi the regular gates belt is great. You don't need the racing one. I know a guy putting 650 to the wheels on pumpgas and uses it. plus it's not to expensive. I got mine on rockauto.com for $27. GOOD LUCK WITH GETTING EVERYTHING ELSE FIXED TOO!!!

 

[Jon91TSi]

Funny how that's all I ever use and I've never had one fail.


Just a heads up that the topline belt is a contitech belt. And contitech is an oem belt. Only difference is that contitech is oem for Vw/Audi.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/maintenance-repairs/89109-oem-timing-belt-aftermarket-merged-7-8-belts-2.html

...beaten to death Read the consensus of the wisemen and the moderators, OEM. You skimp, you pay later. The owner of my 1st 91 installed a Contitech, it snapped 5k miles later.. (This was installed by a VERY reputable shop) Destroyed the head, snapped a valve off and sent it through the piston.. I will only use OEM or better, I don't want the phone call from a customer screaming at me, nor do I feel like sitting on the side of the highway with my face burried in my hands because I chose to use a cheap belt and it snapped, stretched, or sheared the teeth off.

 

[Dark5tar]

We pulled most everything out of the engine bay a few weeks ago. Me and Kyle had time tonight to pull the head, this is what we saw.

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

here is piston 1 valves

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

Conclusion, all valves hit the pistons. Intake valves took the brunt of it.

Kyle has already bought arp headstuds, a new headgasket and a new head.

 

[bryanwheat]

Another victim of a random shop that thinks they know how to work on a dsm.

 

[WES_393]

Wow, now that's a bent valve! Glad it didn't snap off and tear up the piston. I'd take some sandpaper to the piston and smooth it out to reduce hot spots. Add an OEM timing belt assmebly to that list and your good to go! Glad you guys got it figured out.

 

[Dark5tar]

We still don't know what failed/happened to cause the timing to change after it was installed. We checked the timing after he got it back from the shop and it was spot on, 5 hours later it was off 4 teeth at the crank. I guess we gotta check the belt tomorrow when we finish taking it off.

 

[bryanwheat]

Timing belt tension was not set properly. I've found that most people skip that step when installing a belt.

 

[Dark5tar]

Question, my Dad is concerned about the sanding of the pistons. He is thinking that it is going to leave grit between the rings and the cylinder walls. How concerned should we be with this happening. We already planned on plugging the oil passages and raising the pistons to the top of the stroke to sand them, when done we were going to blow it out with compressed air.

Whats the right way to do this?

 

[pauleyman]

Take the shop to small claims court. I've done more than 100 timing belt jobs and fixed countless other "professional" shop screwups. I'm not sure I know of any other car that has both an eccentric pulley and a hydraulic tensioner. It's not complicated but the procedure is very specific. Don't think you can't win in court. I filled out a deposition once for a fellow DSMer speaking as both a mitsubishi owner and a BSME. He won the case to the tune of about 6k$. This one might be a little harder to prove than what I did. If the car jumped time same day it's 99.9% this guy screwed up. The only other way is if there were other mechanical issues etc.

 

[wrencher]

I'm not sure I know of any other car that has both an eccentric pulley and a hydraulic tensioner.

There are a few others. Audi has some involved set ups.
Agreed this guy didn't know what he was doing. He should stand behind his work.
Hydraulic tensioners, tensioner pulley arms & pulleys this stuff is all basic common sense.
I have had plenty of failed tensioners over the years, they wont leave the shop with a bad one on there. It was his ms-diagnosis/ill repair.

Might be harder to go after him in small claims doing the repair yourself. Non-professional non ASE shop etc that's what courts consider. But you can try.

 

[josh1095]

just an fyi the regular gates belt is great. You don't need the racing one. I know a guy putting 650 to the wheels on pumpgas and uses it. plus it's not to expensive. I got mine on rockauto.com for $27. GOOD LUCK WITH GETTING EVERYTHING ELSE FIXED TOO!!!

definitely. i dont believe a "bad" timing belt is made. i just dont buy it. i have a non racing gates i paid like 80 for at oreilly and after just a short time i can say its in perfect condition. 330 miles but ill def be reusing it

 

[WES_393]

Question, my Dad is concerned about the sanding of the pistons. He is thinking that it is going to leave grit between the rings and the cylinder walls. How concerned should we be with this happening. We already planned on plugging the oil passages and raising the pistons to the top of the stroke to sand them, when done we were going to blow it out with compressed air.

Whats the right way to do this?

Keep a shop vac (even a house vacuum hose will be fine) and place it right next to the piston while you dry sand the area with some heavier grit like 500. After they have been taken down pretty good, finish off with a dry sand around 800. Clean the cylinder walls well and coat with oil before installing the head .

You could leave them there, but I would be afraid that they would become hot spots in the cylinder. A smooth and flush surface is reluctant to absorb heat.

 

[ed1380]

$25 on Amazon
T167 IIRC

just an fyi the regular gates belt is great. You don't need the racing one. I know a guy putting 650 to the wheels on pumpgas and uses it. plus it's not to expensive. I got mine on rockauto.com for $27. GOOD LUCK WITH GETTING EVERYTHING ELSE FIXED TOO!!!

 

[DeadlyScone]

If you diy here is a great write up on vfaq for you.
Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

 

[Kyle93]

Pistons are ground and new head is on and torqued. Anyone in the chicago area willing to help out for like $50? We have the belt on but cant seem to get the cam gears to line up perfect. we tried for about 3 hours, it always seems to look like one of them is a tad bit off.