Timing job

[Kyle93]

So my timing was off a tooth on the intake side so i took it to a shop to get fixed, guy originally quoted $50 then a week later when I picked it up he charged $362. I was mad but it started up and ran good and I had vacuum. The belt did seem a little loose so I wanted to take it back the next day. later that night when I was driving it went down to 600-700 idle and almost no vacuum, it died pulling into a parking lot so i started it up again and parked it. An hour later I came back outside from the gym and went to start it and it would turn over but that's about it. my buddy and I checked the timing and the crank is off a real good amount (3 or 4 teeth?) I had it towed back to the shop and the guy is trying to say I threw a rod and it sheered the teeth of the belt on the crank. I am wondering if he is just trying to make stuff up to try covering his tracks since he might not of tensioned it correctly or what? I don't know what to think.

 

[Anubis_4_99]

So my timing was off a tooth on the intake side so i took it to a shop to get fixed, guy originally quoted $50 then a week later when I picked it up he charged $362. I was mad but it started up and ran good and I had vacuum. The belt did seem a little loose so I wanted to take it back the next day. later that night when I was driving it went down to 600-700 idle and almost no vacuum, it died pulling into a parking lot so i started it up again and parked it. An hour later I came back outside from the gym and went to start it and it would turn over but that's about it. my buddy and I checked the timing and the crank is off a real good amount (3 or 4 teeth?) I had it towed back to the shop and the guy is trying to say I threw a rod and it sheered the teeth of the belt on the crank. I am wondering if he is just trying to make stuff up to try covering his tracks since he might not of tensioned it correctly or what? I don't know what to think.

If you have any doubts, i would not take it back to him or let him get his hands back on it. Especially if you already had doubts when you first got it back from him. Sounds like he is just trying to rip you off.

Take it to a reputable shop, have them document anything they find, and if plausible go after the previous mechanic for damages if his work was the possible cause.

Cheaper sadly isn't always better.

 

[riopgtmn]

Do it yourself!

DSM Graveyard 4g63 Timing Belt Tutorial - YouTube

 

[Dark5tar]

I'm the buddy that helped him when his car died. We changed the spark plugs because the guy said they were fouled and thought they might be the problem. After that did not help the car start we lined the cam's up and checked the crank pulley to check timing marks. It was out, I think 3-4 teeth. The thing is the mechanic is saying a rod messed up and caused the timing belt teeth to shear off. I think what we want to know is what causes a timing belt's teeth to shear off, the belt was new.

We know the valves are going to be bent (because we couldn't turn the crank by hand) but it sounds like the guy is trying to cover his mistake's.

 

[bryanwheat]

Sounds like he just didn't tension it properly, or he dropped a bolt or nut in there and it got in the belt. Breaking a rod isn't going to effect the timing belt in any way.

 

[Dark5tar]

I'm mad and its not even my car, Kyle gave the guy the vfaq timing belt thing and he said he didn't need it. The warranty on the receipt claims damages up to the cost of the original repair or something like that. I'd think he'd be liable for his mistake.

Sounds like he just didn't tension it properly, or he dropped a bolt or nut in there and it got in the belt. Breaking a rod isn't going to effect the timing belt in any way.

Sorry if I'm replying to early but wouldn't that show up as soon as Kyle started his car? we had been driving it around for a few hours before this happened.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Sounds like your tensioner and tensioner pulley may be bad therefor not holding belt properly. You said in your first post that it as off from the start. My ? Is what did you replace when timing job was done and did you use oem parts. I just changed my cam seals the other day and was having a hard time getting the belt to hold proper tension. So I thought when was the last time I changed the idler and tensioner pulley hmmm been a long time. Anyway I had a extra good set so I swapped them in. Let me tell you made the world of a difference, I retimed and tensioned first shot was perfect. That old tensioner pulley was so shot im very lucky that nothing happen. So long story short learn to work on your own car and you will not only save tons of money but will be a lot less headaches. Plus you have this site for all the help you need for just about anything you would need to do to your dsm. I see you guys are in Elgin bro there's so many good shop that know dsms around your area. I used to live on Chicago if I was still there I'd come up and help ya. I know there's also some good guys on this site that could probably help you that are close by.

 

[Kyle93]

Sounds like your tensioner and tensioner pulley may be bad therefor not holding belt properly. You said in your first post that it as off from the start. My ? Is what did you replace when timing job was done and did you use oem parts. I just changed my cam seals the other day and was having a hard time getting the belt to hold proper tension. So I thought when was the last time I changed the idler and tensioner pulley hmmm been a long time. Anyway I had a extra good set so I swapped them in. Let me tell you made the world of a difference, I retimed and tensioned first shot was perfect. That old tensioner pulley was so shot im very lucky that nothing happen. So long story short learn to work on your own car and you will not only save tons of money but will be a lot less headaches. Plus you have this site for all the help you need for just about anything you would need to do to your dsm. I see you guys are in Elgin bro there's so many good shop that know dsms around your area. I used to live on Chicago if I was still there I'd come up and help ya. I know there's also some good guys on this site that could probably help you that are close by.

I just had him change the belt, I didnt give him a new tensioner. He said when he was done the tension was ok and set right, he swore he checked it and drove it around and it was fine. I don't want him working on the car anymore so I will probably get it towed to my house and work on it myself and slowly learn how to replace the head and all of that fun stuff.

 

[Dsmkauai]

That's the best way to do it bro. Not only do you learn your car but you will no its done right. Just take your time and if you have to ask 100 ? Do it. Good luck bro

 

[jared_gibbs]

We know the valves are going to be bent (because we couldn't turn the crank by hand) but it sounds like the guy is trying to cover his mistake's.

Get yourself a shop manual buddy, it's the best $30 you can spend on your car. I recommend the Haynes over the Chilton, it seems to go over the 1g's in better detail in my experience.

Try to avoid a head swap if possible! That's a ton of work if you don't need to do it! You can be off by a couple of teeth and not bend valves. The only time you can pretty much guarantee that you've bent valves is if the belt fails while the motor is running. Take your valve cover off and see if any of the rocker arms can be moved or if they've broken off completely. That would be indicative of bent valves.

The last timing belt I did looked like the crank and oil pump were off by a tooth or two, and the car ran great. It may not be wise to jump to the conclusion that the timing belt is even the culprit.

All spark plug wires in the correct order? Plugs gapped correctly?

Definitely check your intake line with a boost leak tester, it could be something that easy. Are all cylinders firing? If you can start the car and idle even for a couple minutes you should be able to tell if you have a dead cylinder by feeling the exhaust port that comes from each cylinder. If one is colder than the others, you likely have your culprit and can troubleshoot from there.

If you can verify that you have no vacuum leaks, you may try a compression test (or better yet a leakdown test) to see if the valves are bent. Get a good jump on your battery first where you're car has been sitting and can't recharge itself via alternator. If you're getting compression you're golden, just redo the timing belt.

If you find something I would tell your mechanic where to stick it. I would have insisted on the $50 as promised. There's no reason they can't give you a call to tell you it will be significantly more. A deal is a deal, don't let them push you around just because you're young. That shop manual will help you out when you need to communicate with a mechanic. Do some homework. If you don't feel you're up to the job, at least get some insight before you let a shop bend you over. Not to say mechanics aren't to be trusted, but there is no bliss in ignorance.

Good luck man!

 

[Anubis_4_99]

I just had him change the belt, I didnt give him a new tensioner. He said when he was done the tension was ok and set right, he swore he checked it and drove it around and it was fine. I don't want him working on the car anymore so I will probably get it towed to my house and work on it myself and slowly learn how to replace the head and all of that fun stuff.

Definitely the best way to do it, you end up saving yourself a lot of time, money, and headache doing it that way. And get to have a little extra pride in your ride knowing your the one who put the time into it.

 

[jimbob_843]

That is some bs right there! Any luck with a refund??

 

[Kyle93]

That is some bs right there! Any luck with a refund??

I don't know yet, its sitting at his shop, he wanted to see what he thinks is wrong. I am not buying his "oh you threw a rod" bs cause I know thats not true, I will find out tomorrow about getting my money back and getting my car out of there before he ruins it any more. And jared im pretty sure I have bent valves because there is no way that the pistons haven't hit the valves if the crank is 4 teeth off on the crank sprocket. If by some miracle they haven't then I don't know what else a piston can really hit haha. I have a 02 jetta 1.8t that is my daily driver so I will have plenty of time to research and do this myself.

 

[jared_gibbs]

And jared im pretty sure I have bent valves because there is no way that the pistons haven't hit the valves if the crank is 4 teeth off on the crank sprocket.

Just don't wanna see you have to do a bunch of extra work. You never know man, you might have gotten lucky. If you can't hear piston slap I would be hopeful. It never hurts to trouble shoot it. A new head will cost you a good $400 maybe less. You can rebuild it yourself, but you may find the hassle isn't worth the savings. If you decide to go that route now's a good time to upgrade the head if you're into that. That really is a ton of work if you don't need to do it and I would absolutely rule it out before going that direction. If you've got a lot of miles on that motor you would benefit from doing a full gasket kit anyway.

Heads's up on that crank sprocket pulley, it's a biatch to remove! The vfaq timing belt article has a specialty tools section. They have instructions on fabricating a tool to help you get that off. It's pretty nifty and will save you a ton hassle.

I don't know if you'll be able to get a refund out of the guy, it seems likely to melt down into a yelling match. You might as well see if you can't squeeze some free labor out of him. Even gettin a free vehicle inspection or tune up would help you reclaim some benefit. Again read up on your shop manual if you're suspicious of his integrity and make him explain his observations and conclusions. If you can plainly see he's taking you for a ride you should write him up on Google reviews. Maybe even take your concerns to your local Better Business Bureau branch.

Best of luck!

 

[Anubis_4_99]

Just don't wanna see you have to do a bunch of extra work. You never know man, you might have gotten lucky. If you can't hear piston slap I would be hopeful. It never hurts to trouble shoot it. A new head will cost you a good $400 maybe less. You can rebuild it yourself, but you may find the hassle isn't worth the savings. If you decide to go that route now's a good time to upgrade the head if you're into that. That really is a ton of work if you don't need to do it and I would absolutely rule it out before going that direction.
Best of luck!

He could get his head rebuilt for much less then that. What he really needs to worry about is damage to the piston tops if valve contact has happened.

 

[Kyle93]

Just don't wanna see you have to do a bunch of extra work. You never know man, you might have gotten lucky. If you can't hear piston slap I would be hopeful. It never hurts to trouble shoot it. A new head will cost you a good $400 maybe less. You can rebuild it yourself, but you may find the hassle isn't worth the savings. If you decide to go that route now's a good time to upgrade the head if you're into that. That really is a ton of work if you don't need to do it and I would absolutely rule it out before going that direction. If you've got a lot of miles on that motor you would benefit from doing a full gasket kit anyway.

Heads's up on that crank sprocket pulley, it's a biatch to remove! The vfaq timing belt article has a specialty tools section. They have instructions on fabricating a tool to help you get that off. It's pretty nifty and will save you a ton hassle.

I don't know if you'll be able to get a refund out of the guy, it seems likely to melt down into a yelling match. You might as well see if you can't squeeze some free labor out of him. Even gettin a free vehicle inspection or tune up would help you reclaim some benefit. Again read up on your shop manual if you're suspicious of his integrity and make him explain his observations and conclusions. If you can plainly see he's taking you for a ride you should write him up on Google reviews. Maybe even take your concerns to your local Better Business Bureau branch.

Best of luck!

Yeah I get what your saying, I'm hoping for the best of luck but since I cant turn the engine over so im guessing it has to be hitting something? :/ maybe its just a noob mistake I haven't caught. Do the pistons usually survive if they hit the valves?

 

[bring_1]

first off, you should always use a new tensioner, but if there was insufficient tension (and it takes quite a bit on these motors) its possible you skipped one tooth while driving, and 2 or 3 more while trying to start it again or when the pistons made contact with the valves. get all the timing covers off and you'll know if the teeth on the belt are sheared, there will be plenty of rubbery debris. if not then you just skipped teeth and bent valves. i know they will run when off one tooth with bad idle and low vacuum, so at that point your valves were ok, but 3 or 4 teeth and its time to pull it.

 

[Jon91TSi]

What brand of timing belt was used?

 

[Kyle93]

first off, you should always use a new tensioner, but if there was insufficient tension (and it takes quite a bit on these motors) its possible you skipped one tooth while driving, and 2 or 3 more while trying to start it again or when the pistons made contact with the valves. get all the timing covers off and you'll know if the teeth on the belt are sheared, there will be plenty of rubbery debris. if not then you just skipped teeth and bent valves. i know they will run when off one tooth with bad idle and low vacuum, so at that point your valves were ok, but 3 or 4 teeth and its time to pull it.

He just called me back, crank is off 3 teeth, he said there was still full tension so the tensioner works but it might not be holding under load? that sounds fishy but anyway he re timed it and it starts but of course i have bent valves and it runs like crap, i only live 3 minutes away so im wondering if it would run that long to get it home so i dont have to tow it? The brand of the timing belt was dayco i think? i got it at advance auto. Also he never mentioned to me that i should put a new tensioner on, guess i shouldve researched that then to trust a mechanic to tell me.

 

[Jon91TSi]

He just called me back, crank is off 3 teeth, he said there was still full tension so the tensioner works but it might not be holding under load? that sounds fishy but anyway he re timed it and it starts but of course i have bent valves and it runs like crap, i only live 3 minutes away so im wondering if it would run that long to get it home so i dont have to tow it? The brand of the timing belt was dayco i think? i got it at advance auto. Also he never mentioned to me that i should put a new tensioner on, guess i shouldve researched that then to trust a mechanic to tell me.

.
That could be part of your problem. You never ever and I emphasize ever use a parts store brand timing belt. You are setting yourself up for failure.

 

[bryanwheat]

.
That could be part of your problem. You never ever and I emphasize ever use a parts store brand timing belt. You are setting yourself up for failure.

That's funny, i've been installing gates and many other brands on cars for years.

 

[herms99gst]

That sucks about the belt and your motor. But you should really replace ALL timing related components when you replace a belt. I just did my brother inlaws aveo and it took some convicing....well me saying i wont do it....but he replaced all his parts.

 

[ChrisMgst]

So my timing was off a tooth on the intake side so i took it to a shop to get fixed, guy originally quoted $50 then a week later when I picked it up he charged $362. I was mad but it started up and ran good and I had vacuum. The belt did seem a little loose so I wanted to take it back the next day. later that night when I was driving it went down to 600-700 idle and almost no vacuum, it died pulling into a parking lot so i started it up again and parked it. An hour later I came back outside from the gym and went to start it and it would turn over but that's about it. my buddy and I checked the timing and the crank is off a real good amount (3 or 4 teeth?) I had it towed back to the shop and the guy is trying to say I threw a rod and it sheered the teeth of the belt on the crank. I am wondering if he is just trying to make stuff up to try covering his tracks since he might not of tensioned it correctly or what? I don't know what to think.

50 bucks for a busted head??well you should know better. How much does just a set of new intake valves cost? Over a 100bucks at least. When he gave you the head back did he resurface and clean it up?

 

[Dark5tar]

The crank is off 3 teeth, we know that. But what causes this to happen when the tensioner is supposedly giving full tension. Is this his mistake or kyles for not having all the components replaced?

About removing the head, I'm pretty sure we have that covered because we had to do alot of work to his other dsm and removing the head isn't much farther then what we've already done.

My father is saying we should have a reputable shop do it incase kyle wants to take the guy to court to get a refund.

 

[bryanwheat]

The only way to verify that the tension is correct is by removing the timing cover and checking it. It is very easy to not get the tension correct.