timing belt help, checking for TDC

[1Gina2G]

After spending alot of time researching information on here about replacing your timing belts I decided to replace mine, but I didn't realize how loose my oil pump sprocket was when I started taking off the rest of the pulleys first, so before I could line up all the timing marks, my belt was already loose.

My Cam gears are lined up and zip tied together, so I went a head and took the main timing belt off. My crankshaft sprocket plate was not inline with it's timing mark so I turned it clockwise untill it was.

My main question is, shouldn't this mean I have the #1 piston at TDC since the crankshaft sprocket is inline? and that the valves should all be closed since the cam gears are lined up?

Are there otherways to check if your at TDC incase the mark on the crank sprocket plate is off?? Im worried since the crank sprocket wasn't inline when the belt came loose.

Since I did a balance shaft delete, I don't have to worry about the oil pump sprocket, just everything else being lined up correct?

Any helps much appreciated, first timing belt replacement, switching to kevlar

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

I don't see any issue here, just line up your marks and put the belt on. After the belt is on and all marks are aligned turn the motor over by hand to make sure there is no internal contact, don't forget to remove the tensioner tool. Thats it.

 

[1Gina2G]

But since I don't have balance shafts, I wouldn't have to line up the oil pump correct?

 

[jimbob_843]

Correct sir!! Aslong as your balance shafts are out your oil pump pretty much spins independantly.

 

[1Gina2G]

Correct sir!! Aslong as your balance shafts are out your oil pump pretty much spins independantly.

thanks a lot, this is my first timing belt replacement like I said so I'm just trying to clarify. I know this sounds weird but, is there anything I can check inside the valve cover to be sure that my valves are definitely closed? my cam gears are perfectly lined up and flush with the head but I'm still nervous haha. and after re tightening the tensioner and putting in the pin for it, MOVE the exhaust cam 1 single tooth in the clockwise direction so when i pull the pin it will tighten into place, correct ?

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

Why worry about anything when you turn it over by hand and nothing contacts? (make sure to turn it clockwise)

Also make sure the dowel pins on the cam gears are facing strait up.

About the 1 tooth thing theres a little preload on the cam so I just hold it place and put the belt on.

 

[1Gina2G]

Why worry about anything when you turn it over by hand and nothing contacts? (make sure to turn it clockwise)

Also make sure the dowel pins on the cam gears are facing strait up.

About the 1 tooth thing theres a little preload on the cam so I just hold it place and put the belt on.

the crankshaft wouldn't turn over completely if the valves were interfering would it? because it turns over all the way. the dowel pins are facing up.

what do you mean by preload? I was jusy going to turn the exhaust cam only 1 tooth clockwise, then put the belt on, and tighten the tensioner pulley with the special tool, then release the pin for the auto tensioner. measure the tensioner after 15 mins.

should be good like this right?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I'm actually working on a Tech Article about this actually. during cases of removing material from the head and block, and sometimes just factory instances, the timing marks on your engine do not mean true TDC.

A recent issue with my build, a 2.3 Stroker setup with material removed from the block and head. Lining everything up by the stock values, the car ran like a turd, popping, missing, stuttering, and couldn't even pull itself up on ramps. No valve contact whatsoever and 180+ compression numbers. So the answer? - I removed the timing belt, stuck an extension in the #1 cylinder, found TRUE TDC which was 6 teeth clockwise out of time at the crank, set my cam gears to stock timing values, slapped the timing assembly together, removed the Grenade pin from the auto tensioner, rotated - No contact. Hesitantly started the car. Viola! Car runs 400% smoother, no backfires, no misses, and spools that poor little T-25 by 1800RPM with little to no throttle. AFRs look good, no knock, no CELS.

I'd say go by TDC over stock crank timing marks any day.

 

[Calan]

Is this a 6-bolt? You need to fill out your profile.

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

 

[1Gina2G]

Is this a 6-bolt? You need to fill out your profile.

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

yup, this is a 6 bolt block with a 2g head. ill start filling out my profile.

 

[Calan]

found TRUE TDC which was 6 teeth clockwise out of time at the crank

WTF

1/2 to 1 tooth or so maybe. TDC off by 6 teeth at the crank sounds like there's a problem with the crank plate or geometry.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl.../403966-geometry-timing-seems-little-odd.html

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

WTF

1/2 to 1 tooth or so maybe. TDC off by 6 teeth at the crank sounds like there's a problem with the crank plate or geometry.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl.../403966-geometry-timing-seems-little-odd.html

Yes - It's ridiculous how far it was off. I have pictures and whatnot of the original mark VS my mark where true TDC was. I still have no idea how the valves never met the pistons. Currently I am 6ish teeth clockwise at the crank and 5* advanced on the exhaust cam.

I actually read that thread when I was determining what the issue was. Answered a lot of questions I had at the time. I would mark it for Rep buuut.. you have enough of that.

 

[Calan]

Currently I am 6ish teeth clockwise at the crank and 5* advanced on the exhaust cam.

Something is seriously out of whack.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Something is seriously out of whack.

Agreed. However - everything is within spec now and she runs great. All it's caused me to do is pick up a new habit in finding true TDC now.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

the crankshaft wouldn't turn over completely if the valves were interfering would it? because it turns over all the way. the dowel pins are facing up.

what do you mean by preload? I was jusy going to turn the exhaust cam only 1 tooth clockwise, then put the belt on, and tighten the tensioner pulley with the special tool, then release the pin for the auto tensioner. measure the tensioner after 15 mins.

should be good like this right?

Yes, you are good to go!

You have no interferance so it's now safe to start.

By preload, I mean, there will be a little bit of pressure when lining up the last cam while putting the belt on because it just starts to compress the valve springs (preload), thats why some people have issues with it being 1 off, I have never had that issue though and don't understand why people get it 1 off but they do.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Yes, you are good to go!

You have no interferance so it's now safe to start.

By preload I mean there will be a little bit of pressure when lining up the last cam while putting the belt on because it just starts to compress the valve spring (preload), thats why some people have issues with it being 1 off, I have never had that issue though and don't understand why people get it 1 off but they do.

The exhaust cam is usually pulled 1* advanced when the auto tensioner is applied. It puts tension on that side of the belt and in turn, both of the cams rotate counter clockwise just barely and it causes it to appear off a tooth. A way to avoid this is to make sure that when you apply the timing belt that you try to get all of the slack on the exhaust side of the cam instead of the intake. This usually allows you to push the timing belt over the tensioner pulley with little to no resistance and thus doesn't pull your cam gears in any one direction.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

Aggreed but that doesn't mean you can't use your eyes and look at all of the marks after install to make sure nothing is off.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Sure doesn't! But what it does mean is that if you don't correctly compensate for it you'll continue to be off a tooth and you'll end up doing your timing 100+ times.

Then again, if you have adjustable cam gears, you don't have this problem.

 

[bryanwheat]

Sounds like you might be using the 7 bolt bolt plate that fits between the crank and balance shaft sprockets. They have the mark in a different location than the 6 bolt.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

To the OP: if your marks are lined up, they are lined up, there is no if ands or buts about it. Got her running yet?

 

[1Gina2G]

The exhaust cam is usually pulled 1* advanced when the auto tensioner is applied. It puts tension on that side of the belt and in turn, both of the cams rotate counter clockwise just barely and it causes it to appear off a tooth. A way to avoid this is to make sure that when you apply the timing belt that you try to get all of the slack on the exhaust side of the cam instead of the intake. This usually allows you to push the timing belt over the tensioner pulley with little to no resistance and thus doesn't pull your cam gears in any one direction.

So if I pull the slack of the belt, to keep it on the exhaust side of the cams, I won't have to set the exhaust camshaft 1 tooth off in a clockwise direction, but rather have both camshafts aligned just before releasing the auto tensioner?

sorry if im mixing things up, again just clarifying

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Correct! Unless you have your tensioner adjusted to have far too much tension. Usually, with every install I've done, making sure that all slack is on the exhaust side of the timing belt assembly has left me with a smooth install and properly aligned cams. If you cannot, you need to align the Intake timing mark just a tad above the surface of the head, and the exhaust cam just a tad below the surface of the head. When you get the belt on the tensioner pulley and the auto tensioner on, both cams should be perfectly in line with one another and with the surface of the head.

 

[1Gina2G]

Correct! Unless you have your tensioner adjusted to have far too much tension. Usually, with every install I've done, making sure that all slack is on the exhaust side of the timing belt assembly has left me with a smooth install and properly aligned cams. If you cannot, you need to align the Intake timing mark just a tad above the surface of the head, and the exhaust cam just a tad below the surface of the head. When you get the belt on the tensioner pulley and the auto tensioner on, both cams should be perfectly in line with one another and with the surface of the head.

So the "One-Tooth-Off Method" works by not pulling any slack off the belt manualy, because your lettting the tensioner tighten it into place?

Just trying to figure out whitch method is the easiest, the one tooth off method seemed the easiest, but I might just try to leave the cam gears lined up. I'm only waiting on the special tools for the timing belt to arrive in the mail in the next few days to do all this.

I think my crankplate might be from a 7 bolt just like someone mentioned up there, is there a way to tell?

Thanks for all the help everyone

 

[Calan]

So the "One-Tooth-Off Method" works by not pulling any slack off the belt manualy, because your lettting the tensioner tighten it into place?

Just trying to figure out whitch method is the easiest, the one tooth off method seemed the easiest, but I might just try to leave the cam gears lined up. I'm only waiting on the special tools for the timing belt to arrive in the mail in the next few days to do all this.

You don't need to worry about a "one tooth off method" or any other exotic crap.

Use the tool from Jay to lock both cam gears in place with the marks dead straight across from each other and parallel to the head (dowels straight up), put the belt across the gears, and work clockwise... going around the tensioner last. You can lightly zip-tie the belt to the gears if you want to keep it from slipping off.

I really don't understand why people complicate the shit out of getting the t-belt in place and the marks lined up. The only "difficult" part of replacing the t-belt is getting the tensioner pulley adjusted properly so you can slide the pin in and out (about .150" between tensioner tongue and body). Even that isn't difficult...it's just frustrating sometimes.

Make sure to use the right crank plate (and install it correctly), verify TDC, and you won't have any issues.

IMHO, anyone doing a t-belt job without using Jay's gear locker tool deserves what they get.

 

[1Gina2G]

how does one go about putting that gear locker in?