Tilton carbon clutch slipping like mad

[turboglenn]

EDIT in title, found out it's a tilton

Well, we were tuning my friends car today when the clutch became a pain because of the engagement being at almost all the way released (but wasn't slipping). The engagement was so far off the floor that we started by putting the adjuster rod "in the middle", well as soon as the adjustment under the dash was moved the clutch began to slip like mad. We tried every adjustment in the book, from all the way on the floor, to all the way back out like it was when we started but nothing stopped the slippage.

This clutch is supposed to hold 1000HP and until the master cylinder was adjusted it held great, now it slips at 200 hp or less.

It almost seems like the "2g pedal pump up" that you read about on buschur's website.

This clutch isn't supposed to make any smell when slipping either (according to the website) but it does have a weird and distinct smell. WE tried burning some carbon fiber with a torch but A.) it wouldn't burn and B.) when it did, there was still hardly any smell at all. Also the clutch is supposed to grtab harder when it gets hot from slipping (ours isn't) I"m stuck on the belief that it's something to do with the fluid returning to the master releasing pressure on the clutch it's self because the longer the clutch is let "out" the less iot slips (but never fully stops now) and when you first release the clutch pedal it slips like there's no clutch there

Anyone have any ideas??

 

[Slippi84]

EDIT in title, found out it's a tilton

Well, we were tuning my friends car today when the clutch became a pain because of the engagement being at almost all the way released (but wasn't slipping). The engagement was so far off the floor that we started by putting the adjuster rod "in the middle", well as soon as the adjustment under the dash was moved the clutch began to slip like mad. We tried every adjustment in the book, from all the way on the floor, to all the way back out like it was when we started but nothing stopped the slippage.

This clutch is supposed to hold 1000HP and until the master cylinder was adjusted it held great, now it slips at 200 hp or less.

It almost seems like the "2g pedal pump up" that you read about on buschur's website.

This clutch isn't supposed to make any smell when slipping either (according to the website) but it does have a weird and distinct smell. WE tried burning some carbon fiber with a torch but A.) it wouldn't burn and B.) when it did, there was still hardly any smell at all. Also the clutch is supposed to grtab harder when it gets hot from slipping (ours isn't) I"m stuck on the belief that it's something to do with the fluid returning to the master releasing pressure on the clutch it's self because the longer the clutch is let "out" the less iot slips (but never fully stops now) and when you first release the clutch pedal it slips like there's no clutch there

Anyone have any ideas??

Good luck trying to find anyone with any first hand experience with a $5.5k clutch on here. I will say it doesn't sound like a clutch but more a adjustment problem as that clutch is not slipping at 200whp from the power.

 

[snowborder714]

The only person on here I know running the Tilton is Tony (Got Grip). Hopefully he'll see this and give some suggestions, if he has any. If not, try sending him a PM.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Or you can call Tilton about their own clutch?

Tilton Engineering

 

[Rob10_99]

Master cylinder sounds like it isn't returning, or slave. I assume there is no pressure on the clutch fork when you check for play? What did you adjust?
Does the clutch still feel the same as far as the pressure plate? and pedal pressure to release it?

 

[MidShipCivic]

Master cylinder sounds like it isn't returning, or slave. I assume there is no pressure on the clutch fork when you check for play? What did you adjust?
Does the clutch still feel the same as far as the pressure plate? and pedal pressure to release it?

The Tilton doesn't use a fork it uses a hydraulic throw out bearing.

 

[twicks69]

Check out their .pdf concerning clutch slippage, wear characteristics and specifications:

http://www.tiltonracing.com/ins/98-1300.pdf

Essentially,

Maintenance

1. Thicker replacement pressure plates are supplied to compensate for clutch wear. The pressure plates are supplied in thickness increments of .025". However, the clutch is usually capable of withstanding .040" or more wear before clutch slippage will occur. It is important to let the clutch go through the entire .025" of wear before installing the next thicker pressure plate or clutch release will be a problem. The wear gage can be used as a quick guide to tell you if the clutch is worn to the point of needing the next thickest pressure plate or if the next pressure plate has been installed too soon. The most accurate method is to measure the thickness of the individual plates and compare them to the dimensions of the plates listed on the build sheet supplied with the clutch. Once .025" of total clutch plate wear is achieved it is time to switch to the next thickest pressure plate. The thickness is engraved on the pressure plate in thousandths of an inch. The third pressure plate (if included) is installed after .050" wear. Once you have gone through the entire wear range of the pressure plates, return the clutch to Tilton for a rebuild.

2. Check the clearance between drive hub fingers and the slots in the driven plates. The slots must not be more than .025" (6.4mm) wider than the drive hub's fingers. This is best checked with a feeler gauge. Premature wear of the slots is usually an indication of input shaft misalignment with respect to the crankshaft.

3. Check hub float. With the clutch installed on the flywheel the drive hub should be able to float at least .010" (.25mm) on the input shaft. Once the axial float disappears the clutch will start to slip.

4. Check for signs of excessive heat. A blue-colored hub is a sign of high temperatures from a clutch having been slipped excessively. High temperatures can cause the spring to lose clamp load. Send the assembly back to Tilton for inspection if damage is suspected.

5. Increased wear at the release bearing contact area is a sign of a heavy left foot or a bearing that needs to be replaced. Many clutches have been lost to the failure of a $30 bearing that was run one race too many.

6. Whenever inspecting a clutch, be sure to replace all of the plates in the same position and orientation in which they were originally installed. Alignment marks can be found on the plates and the clutch cover.

7. Blowing out a clutch cover with an air nozzle is acceptable. Cleaning the clutch cover in a solvent tank is not recommended as this removes the grease from the internal diaphragm spring pivot locations.

8. Always start a 12 or 24-hour race with a new or freshly rebuilt clutch.

9. A Carbon/Carbon clutch rebuild usually costs 10-20% of the cost of a new Carbon/Carbon clutch. If the clutch is used too far beyond recommended wear (pressure plate change) intervals, the clutch may slip excessively and result in total clutch loss. Carbon/Carbon clutches are rebuilt at Tilton and can be sent directly or through your distributor. If you send it directly call first to obtain a Returned Goods Authorization (RGA) number. It is to your benefit to supply information on the type of car, type of racing, and any other particulars concerning the reason for the return. You will be provided with a quote before work is performed. All rebuilt clutches are tested for clean release, torque capacity, and clamp load before being returned to the customer.

 

[Morphius]

Quick and dirty to know if it's 'pump up" is to grap the S/C rod and see if you can push it into the body of the S/C. If you can't, then that's at least one of your issues.

 

[twicks69]

Quick and dirty to know if it's 'pump up" is to grap the S/C rod and see if you can push it into the body of the S/C. If you can't, then that's at least one of your issues.

There is no slave cylinder with a Tilton clutch -- it uses a hydraulic throwout bearing.

 

[Morphius]

There is no slave cylinder with a Tilton clutch -- it uses a hydraulic throwout bearing.

Technically it does have a slave cylinder. It's a concentric slave cylinder. (industry technical definition)

However, to what I was speaking, then that slave cylinder doesn't have a push rod. I thought it was one of the multi-disk setups that used the isuzu slave. My bad.

He could still test it by pulling the trans (without disconnecting the hydraulics) and pressing on the TOB then.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, it was pump up.. replaced the master and it's grabbing great again.. Sorry i didn't update already, last i lookied there were no replies.

Thanks for all the help

 

[matthewdesigns]

Well, it was pump up.. replaced the master and it's grabbing great again

Glad you got it worked out. Those clutches hold huge power, but are unforgiving if you don't watch out. A local guy who's using one just destroyed 2nd gear in his tranny.

Good luck trying to find anyone with any first hand experience with a $5.5k clutch on here.

Jackstransmissions.com (a vendor here on Tuners) sells Tilton's built specifically for DSM's for $1200. They use stock TOB's and stock machined flywheels. A couple of guys at his shop are running them.

 

[Slippi84]

Glad you got it worked out. Those clutches hold huge power, but are unforgiving if you don't watch out. A local guy who's using one just destroyed 2nd gear in his tranny.




Jackstransmissions.com (a vendor here on Tuners) sells Tilton's built specifically for DSM's for $1200. They use stock TOB's and stock machined flywheels. A couple of guys at his shop are running them.

Not the Tilton carbon clutch which the Op stated. That clutch is a $5.5k clutch and I highly doubt they would sell it for less that half of what it goes for.

 

[matthewdesigns]

Oops, missed "carbon".

Not sure which his use, but probably not the carbon at that price for sure. I see that Tilton has 3 compounds available. Still a steal at $1200 even with the less expensive compounds.

 

[Got Grip]

I just saw this thread and you've already solved the problem. I have the same clutch, absolutely the best clutch for a DSM, but the price tag reflects it.

If I were the owner of the car, I'd seriously considering pulling the trans and doing a quick check of the clutch with the gauge Tilton sends. If he's at the stage where he needs a Tilton clutch, he probably has trans removals down to an hour. The reason being, if he wore the clutch enough during all that slipping (in the original post, it sounds like you guys were beating the piss out of it), I'd much rather install the next shim if needed rather than get it to the point where it's slipping on its own and risk trashing the disks.

That being said, I ran my Tilton carbon-carbon for the entire season last year and even had a handful of runs that it completely slipped through first, second and part of third gear (my stupidity, don't ask) and when I removed it this winter, it showed almost no wear. The wear gauge they supplied appeared to be in the same position as when it was brand new.

 

[turboglenn]

Man that must not be the same tilton.. you're probably thinking of the one RRE sells. My friedn got his at a KILLER DEAL and still paid damn near 4k dollars for it. IT comes with a flywheel 2 plates to use, 2 as spares, hydro TOB and all kindsa crap, supposed to be "the last clutch you'll ever buy" yea, my ass it is

More like the last clutch you can afford to buy, but at least thye give you spare plates whern it's new...they must know you'll have to service it a lot or something

 

[twicks69]

ANY Carbon-Carbon multi-plate clutch will require regular shimming; it is the design.

These clutches are really nice for their torque capacity, heat tolerance, much lower MOI's, and safety for the fact that they will shred instead of scatter in the event of a failure.

Carbon clutches were originally used for race teams that very regularly have their engine and transmission rebuilt and checked. It will require regular inspection for clearance, and will require wearable surface replacement (floaters and disks). It is inherant in their design. As well, it is always important to inspect the pressure plate springs (fingers) for damage or wear; it is a good replacement part on any rebuildable clutch.

As for the saying "it will be the last clutch you ever purchase" -- sortof....if you don't count replacement parts for THEIR clutch.

The Quarter Master and Tilton and PowerTrain Technologies multi-disk clutches are all rebuildable, allowing the customer to purchase the entire assembly ONCE, and then rebuild it as it goes. Every part can be purchased separately. I would rather have this anyday over spending $700+ on a single disk setup like an ACT2600, kevlar disk and Fidanza/ACT flywheel that only gets a short life before needing complete replacement (PP, disk and friction surface on flywheel).

The initial cost of the Carbon-Carbon clutch is pretty high, and can be up to $5500-6000 for just the clutch. In some cases, Manufacturers are charging around $4500 for a rebuild -- which can be every season or more. Because of this high initial and rebuild cost, I chose to use the standard Rally Quarter Master 7.25" setup, and the prototype disks.

I hope that the clutch works out for you guys, as it is a nice piece, but it is a RACE part that was designed for RACE teams; NOT for street cars.

 

[Slippi84]

I forget which racing team it is I want to say AMS or Magnus is using this unit and has for like a season and a half maybe two seasons and has broke tons of stuff(racing is breaking) and are still on their first tilton carbon clutch and original disks.