Thoughts on a new turbo?

[94Jettameowpsst]

No offense to any turbo mentioned. It seams that guys love their turbochoices like they chose it as an expression of their inner self or something. EVERY single person posting on this forum that has gone to the track with a holset has put up an 11second slip. that's about 5 people. Big names run turbos the get for free (sponsorship). IF a big name ran a holset how much better would the results be? How many would run the holset. The pack mentality? or the herd mentality?

The "pwning" is this log of the hx40 in the bep housing spooling to 20+ psi by 3900rpms. And then scrolling to the 650whp dynograph displayed already in this thread. This was NOT with the billet hx40 compressor wheel. What did Curt Brown put down with his hta 35r setup? Give him the benefit of a conservative dyno, of course.

For those who don't have ecmlink forum access:

According to the log the boost est. was 31psi at 6k+rpm, how is this correct if only at 20 psi, uncalibrated maf? Maybe im just over thinking this but a good tune will have the same estimate as what your boost gauge will read....well atleast thats how i have my car setup

 

[dsm-onster]

You're right it was not a good tune. Actually not any calibration at all yet. GM3bar sensor is logged. Look at the actual boost. 20psi by 3900rpms. Here's the data exported to text:

Timestamp (us),RPM (rpm),AirFlow (lb/min),GM3Bar (-inHg/+psi)
0,3505,7.7,1.1
58396,3482,7.8,1.3
114816,3482,7.8,1.4
172212,3498,8.0,1.6
230032,3518,8.1,1.6
287028,3501,8.2,1.8
344436,3524,8.5,2.0
401844,3531,8.8,2.3
460144,3531,8.9,3.0
516660,3534,9.1,3.0
574068,3544,9.4,3.2
631476,3561,9.5,3.6
688884,3575,9.6,3.9
747252,3565,9.8,3.8
803712,3589,10.1,3.9
861108,3568,10.3,4.7
918844,3623,10.7,4.8
975928,3602,10.7,5.0
1033332,3606,10.9,5.6
1090744,3641,11.3,5.4
1148148,3630,11.5,5.9
1205556,3644,11.7,5.9
1262964,3637,12.0,6.6
1320372,3637,12.2,6.6
1377792,3680,12.6,7.3
1435188,3695,12.9,7.5
1492600,3662,13.2,8.1
1550008,3713,13.6,8.8
1607424,3713,14.0,8.6
1664820,3724,14.4,9.1
1722228,3746,14.9,9.7
1780552,3717,15.1,10.2
1837044,3792,16.0,10.8
1894452,3765,16.2,11.3
1952236,3788,16.7,12.2
2009272,3796,17.3,11.8
2066676,3796,17.6,13.1
2124084,3827,18.4,14.0
2181492,3842,19.2,14.7
2238900,3854,20.0,15.4
2296312,3870,20.7,16.3
2353728,3878,21.6,17.2
2411124,3890,22.3,18.3
2468588,3898,23.2,18.6
2525940,3935,24.1,19.9
2583348,3956,24.9,21.0
2640760,3960,25.4,21.3
2698648,3981,25.8,21.3
2755632,4019,26.2,22.2
2812984,4041,26.7,23.1
2870580,4045,26.9,23.3
2927796,4050,26.9,24.0
2985436,4085,27.3,23.7
3042612,4094,27.6,24.0
3100020,4125,27.8,24.0
3157428,4112,27.7,24.4
3214836,4167,28.1,24.4
3272248,4199,28.2,24.2
3329652,4162,28.0,24.9
3387060,4237,28.4,24.2
3444508,4247,28.6,24.7
3502148,4266,28.8,24.0
3559296,4291,29.1,24.2
3617056,4320,29.3,24.7
3674120,4315,29.5,24.7
3731520,4376,29.9,24.0
3789588,4401,30.1,24.0
3846324,4407,30.4,24.2
3903744,4459,30.9,24.2
3961140,4438,31.1,24.7
4018552,4475,31.5,25.1
4075956,4475,31.4,25.1
4133552,4502,31.7,25.1
4190824,4562,32.1,24.7
4248180,4568,32.3,24.6
4305588,4601,32.6,24.7
4364068,4613,32.9,25.3
4420404,4624,33.1,25.1
4477924,4630,32.9,24.9
4535788,4693,33.4,24.4
4592632,4699,33.3,25.1
4650036,4670,33.2,24.9
4707444,4717,33.7,25.4
4765240,4777,34.4,25.4
4822288,4759,34.3,25.3
4879668,4789,35.0,25.4
4937588,4826,35.4,25.4
4994496,4851,35.6,25.3
5052380,4876,35.7,25.1
5109304,4915,36.7,25.3
5166708,4934,36.8,25.4
5224120,4908,36.7,25.3
5281524,4987,37.2,25.8
5338944,4967,36.6,25.8
5396340,5020,37.0,26.0
5453748,5034,37.2,25.1
5511156,5027,37.0,25.6
5568620,5102,37.6,25.4
5625984,5061,37.5,26.0
5683560,5109,37.8,24.9
5740824,5137,38.3,26.0
5798196,5137,38.2,25.4
5855604,5194,38.9,25.4
5913156,5172,38.9,26.2
5970808,5252,39.5,25.8
6028028,5252,39.6,25.6
6085248,5237,39.7,26.0
6142656,5252,40.0,26.2
6200052,5312,40.5,26.2
6257796,5334,40.4,26.9
6314872,5403,41.0,25.6
6372652,5380,41.1,26.2
6429696,5403,41.4,26.5
6487116,5411,41.5,26.0
6544552,5466,42.3,26.3
6602432,5443,42.4,26.0
6660036,5523,43.0,25.8
6717268,5515,42.9,26.3
6774484,5523,43.3,26.5
6831540,5531,43.2,26.3
6888952,5547,43.3,27.2
6947320,5589,43.7,26.3
7003768,5648,44.3,26.9
7061184,5605,44.1,27.1
7118584,5656,44.6,26.5
7176648,5716,45.0,26.3
7234556,5725,45.2,27.1
7290844,5699,45.2,27.2
7348252,5734,45.5,27.1
7405664,5760,45.8,26.5
7463080,5787,46.1,26.5
7520476,5769,45.8,26.5
7578992,5796,46.2,27.1
7635820,5859,46.9,27.2
7692712,5814,46.3,26.7
7750108,5832,46.6,27.1
7807548,5850,47.0,26.9
7865880,5878,47.3,27.1
7922392,5962,48.1,27.1
7979808,5962,47.8,26.5
8037744,5990,48.1,26.9
8094612,5934,47.9,27.6
8153076,5971,48.4,27.1
8209432,6029,49.0,27.2
8267672,6058,49.2,27.6
8324672,6058,48.9,27.1
8381652,6078,49.2,26.9
8439064,6058,49.0,26.7
8497008,6107,48.7,27.6
8553876,6148,49.7,27.6
8612104,6219,50.3,27.2
8668704,6260,50.1,27.1
8726224,6178,49.9,27.4
8783512,6168,49.8,27.2
8840920,6198,50.1,28.1
8898328,6250,50.1,26.9
8955784,6250,50.0,27.8
9013140,6219,49.8,27.2
9070552,6271,49.8,27.1
9127956,6313,50.6,28.1
9185756,6399,51.0,26.5
9242776,6432,30.0,22.2

Full boost was set at 25ish psi, creaping to 28 psi.

Too much lag for your 2.0 ??? The larger .70 a/r bep housing sees 20+psi about 4400rpms with 272-style cams.


BTW the boostest is only off by 2psi at 5K. The boostest number assumes 100% VE which for the stock intake manifold lies at around 5-5500rpms. You can only calibrate your maf with that rpm point with boost est. If you try to match boost and boostest for any rpm points after, then your maf hertz number the ecu will use will be lower than actual causing more lean than your fuel adjustments alone would render.

 

[toofast82]

That is a pretty nice log, i agree! The main advantage of the holsets over the other comparable options is the price and availability. I do feel however if you have an hx35 or larger, if you're not running in the 11s, something is not right.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well. Keep in mind that the holset hx35 in the bolton housing can, because of the bolton housing, do maybe a little more than the 50-trim. . . A larger turbine housing really opens up the potential. That turbine wheel has responded well to larger a/r. If you can't get into the 11s with a td06 20g or t31 50-trim, then you likely won't with a bolton hx35.

 

[toofast82]

Well said!

 

[JusMX141]

When did this become a pissing match between Holset and Garrett? I didn't look at this thread for a day, and man did things take a turn.

And guess what, you're running a used tractor turbo, I'm running a brand new GARRETT [/snob]

(that carries a lifetime warranty from FP against CHRA oil contamination too)

Don't get me wrong....there's absolutely nothing wrong the the HTA 35R- I just don't have $1750 to throw down on a turbo that will essentially give slightly better performance than a HX40 could. I paid $469 for my 7-blade HX40 brand new, and $100 for a Bullseye turbine housing used here on the Tuner classifieds. It's awesome that FP is so confident that they can offer such an aggressive warranty....but for their price, I could throw away three HX40's before I would exceed what you spent on your HTA.

Tractor turbo or not, you can't argue with the HX40's ability to make power. Just because no one has put together a good pass yet doesn't mean it won't happen. FP put tons and tons of R & D into the HTA before they ever sold a single unit- none of this happened with the Holsets. Imagine what kind of power could be made with Holsets if someone put tons of R & D building the best possible turbo for your money! Of course, they wouldn't have a $469 price tag after that, either.

 

[toofast82]

I definitely agree that Holsets are very cost effective and have the durability to outlast any other component on your car. I have noticed that the prices of the used versions of these have gone up slightly due to everyone using them (dsm,nissan,honda and domestic) and realizing their potential.

 

[toofast82]

I was just curious since you guys are very knowledgable about the holsets. Do you think it would be possible to modify a 5bolt garret 02housing to bolt to the t3 12cm housing. It appears that the bolts are slightly off from each other, or i could be crazy? Has anybody done this? I see that guys are running nondivided manifolds on the twin inlet housings, do you feel its causing much of a turbulence issue or anything?

 

[toofast82]

I ran an hx35 on my dsm in 05-06 when the bep housings first came out. Back then i was dumb and ran it with the internal wastegate and was unable to get full potential. It did spool pretty quick and was very powerful. It did not last very long because I had oiled it from the head and I also had no balance shafts. It did probably last like 2-2.5k miles like that, but probably would have lasted 250k if i oiled it from the filter

 

[dsm-onster]

If you have no b-shafts, the best place to feed oil from is the head. Holsets don't like to see over 70psi oil pressure. And a 4g63 motor WITH shafts will show more than that at redline feeding from the housing. The head will read a bit lower oil pressure.

 

[toofast82]

I would definitely like to see more track times and vids since there are quite of few people running hx35/40s and realize the 10sec potential. Yes these gt35s are expensive, but they are proven at the track time and time again. Honestly, my friend has a 2g with FPRed on stock cams at 22psi and I would say it feels like a 11.3-11.5 car and he has owned known 11sec cars by us. I couldnt even imagine would it would do with cams and like 30psi. How well the car performs with turbo amazes me. He had an FPGreen before that and it was awesome too.

 

[toofast82]

Well oiling from the head for me, caused extreme destruction to my holset. it wasnt even good enough for a core. I could be wrong, but i would say oiling from the filter with a restrictor(if needed) may be the best. It may vary car to car, but my first hand experience with oiling from the head was very very bad.

 

[dsm-onster]

What is the difference from oiling from the OFH with a restrictor that lowers oil flow/pressure to that of directly feeding from the head??? Did you feed you next holset from the OFH?

The hx35/40 in the bolton housing will do marginally better than the hx35 in the bolton turbine housing. Upgrading the compressor only raises the flow potential of the compressor. It does not affect how much air the motor actually injests. Not many can dip into the 10s with an fpgreen/scm50/g50/td06h-20g/etc. As I said, the bolton hx35 is on par with the 50-trim/20g.

It's like the scm6031. The small turbine wheel and turbine housing won't let you remotely reach the potential of the 60-1 compressor wheel. You've just added a larger amount of weight to the compressor wheel with no overal gain over a 50-trim compressor or 60-trim compressor.

Now the hx35/40 with the stock hx35 turbine housing with a non-divided t3 manifold: this will give you a 600whp potential turbo. +132mph trap speed with a full weight AWD dsm. Such a turbo DOES merit a larger compressor wheel like the 60mm hx40 compressor wheel.

 

[toofast82]

I didnt mean hybrid hx35/40, i meant 35 and 40, my bad. Ive read that OP at the head is from like 15-35psi where as from the filter with no bs it can go over 100psi but with a restrictor it will put you in the 50-70psi range. W/out bs you may not need the restrictor. It may last 200k miles oiled from your head but on mine it only lasted about 2500miles, I then went with an 18g that I didnt have any oiling issues from the head. I actually originally oiled the 18g from the filter and it smoked at idle(it was used) and put in on the head and no smoke. Also my friend has a 96 cummins ram and his turbo oil line is pretty damn big! Id say at least -4. He has over 200k with no shaft play on his holset.

 

[toofast82]

How about what i asked about the 5bolt garret o2 housing being modified to bolt to the holset turine discharge? Any experience or anyone do it?

 

[dsm-onster]

The MHI certer cartridge has an internal restrictor and likes to see under 20psi oil pressure at peak.

Ive read that OP at the head is from like 15-35psi where as from the filter with no bs it can go over 100psi but with a restrictor it will put you in the 50-70psi range.

The lack of Bshafts raises the oil pressure at the head too. Oil pressure goes up over 35% when removing bshafts, everywhere you get oil will be 30% higher, including the head. I think you had a bad hx35: one that was rebuilt with a bent shaft, or similar.

 

[toofast82]

All im saying is it didnt work for me. My friends ram is also oiled at the filter housing from the factory and the line is less than 15" Not sure what his oil pressure is but im sure its more than 40psi during acceleration. I would say that they would be comfortable in the 45-65psi range.

 

[toofast82]

I never had a gauge hooked up to either the head or filter to see what kind of pressure it was putting out. My friend tore up his first Red pretty fast oiling at the head and moved to filter with no probs

 

[dsm-onster]

The fp red is an mhi turbo with a different compressor. It was supposed to be fed from the head. It it is a tdo6h bearign section and turbine wheel mated to a 50-trim compressor.

The cummins truck motor is not a 4g63 motor. We do not know the oil pressure for the 5.9L cummins.

You're drawing conclusions without having nearly enough information. There's a 'holset oil feed' thread. It would be best if you take it there. You may get more information and it would bring this thread back on topic.

 

[toofast82]

I'm just speaking from "my" first hand experience. Sorry to get (way) off topic. I will call my friend and find out what his ram's OP is at.

 

[toofast82]

30s at idle and in the 60s under load is what he says his ram gets

 

[dsm-onster]

The 4g63 sees about the same from the head when the bshafts are removed. Something else caused the failure. Not an oiling issue due to location.

 

[toofast82]

Whatever, all I have to say is if I ever ran another Holset, I wont be oiling it from the head. You can run your oil line where you want. It was a brand new hx35 too. Then my used 18g lasted 15k miles no prob and then i sold the car. Isnt this the same issue with the garrett turbos. It says right on the paper you get with one to oil it from the housing and then many people use restrictors as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

Let's relax. there's no "paper" with a holset. Just everyone's experience. I blew a perfectly good garrett feeding from the OFH .

Why dsm's blow turbos more than anyother motor: Great results from pushing a turbo to the ragged edge, and VERY different oil pressures at different loads. Your information from your cummins buddy will allow me not to hesitate to recommend feeding from head when running no b-shafts. A dsm turbo failure may be because of the motor not the turbo, who'd a thunk it??? Chillax. Great info! Thank you for your input. The rest of the community does need to see this.

 

[toofast82]

I'm talking about when I had a pte 60-1 with the paper.