The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[1qkfwd]

I had no plans to get cams just yet but a local DSMer was selling a set of genuine HKS 264's for a price that I couldn't pass up. Plus after rereading the AMS cam test where the HKS 264's picked up 14 hp and almost 40 ft. lbs. of torque without losing any spool or off boost power on a 16g... I figure its worth some of that on a 14b (especially ported with a larger hotside). I'm just trying to decide on a set of springs and retainers now. I won't be revving super high obviously and these are mild cams but I still don't think I'm going to trust my 20 year old stock springs.

Also going on with the cams and springs will be a set of blue viton valve seals, a ported 7 cm turbine housing, MAP stainless o2 housing, Tial 38mm wastegate, and SCE copper turbo gaskets. Plus I'll be porting my 2g exhaust manifold and doing some cosmetic stuff that painting the engine bay and shaving and polishing my intake manifold. I think it will make a nice improvement to my 14b setup. The only downside with dropping all this stuff in at once is that I won't get to see which parts makes which (if any) improvement. Oh well, as long as I go faster in the spring!

So I reread through project goodwill and saw that Joe was running the crower 414 cams when he ran the record time. I got offered a set of crower 416 cams which are there version of the 264/272 combo. I got to looking at crowers site and the 414 cams are crowers 272/272 based cam.

Now as for springs and retainers, take this for what it's worth. My buddies car has had a set of bc 272s for the past 3 years on an evo 3 16g setup. We have been running the stock springs and retainers the whole time. I think we are getting away with it because we are not reving past 8k. Now the evo springs work on a lower lift cam because they hit the valve seals. I personally will be running either the stockers or the crowers I scored in a head I bought with a blown bottom end.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I couldn't rev past 4500 with stock springs.. I would never run a crower or bc product. The evo spring is just a stiff and ment to run 200k miles. I personally run manley springs and cosworth retainers. Best/lightest single spring i think. I bought my cousin some evo springs and retainers for $40. Crowers are like $130 correct?

 

[1qkfwd]

I couldn't rev past 4500 with stock springs.. I would never run a crower or bc product. The evo spring is just a stiff and ment to run 200k miles. I personally run manley springs and cosworth retainers. Best/lightest single spring i think.

You obviously had something else wrong then. I've ran bc272s on three different cars and never had an issue. Theres nothing wrong with either crower or bc. They are a great budget cam. Well the bc's are. The 16g car went 11.3@122 on that setup and we have some shifts logged as high as 8200. The evo springs have less installed clearance than a 1g/2g spring. So like I said they will only work with a low lift cam.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Those bc272's are terrible. I will agree they are a nice budget cam. The HKS 264's are just as aggressive as those. Kelford 272's are more aggressive then a bc280. A low lift cam is all we need for a 14b. I'm running a 2.4L so im running Kelford 272's.

However if you are looking for a nice budget cam you might aswell just run a regrind.. Wouldnt be any worse then running a bc or crower

 

[1qkfwd]

Those bc272's are terrible. I will agree they are a nice budget cam. The HKS 264's are just as aggressive as those. Kelford 272's are more aggressive then a bc280. A low lift cam is all we need for a 14b. I'm running a 2.4L so im running Kelford 272's.

However if you are looking for a nice budget cam you might aswell just run a regrind.. Wouldnt be any worse then running a bc or crower

If bc cams where so terrible I really don't think they would be in business and I don't think we would've made the power to trap 122 in a 3000 lb car on a 16g. No nos, no meth, no e85. I do understand the differences between all the cam profiles. I was just throwing out info based on what would benefit a 14b setup.

Now you running this 2.4, or still imagining running this engine??

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

So I reread through project goodwill and saw that Joe was running the crower 414 cams when he ran the record time. I got offered a set of crower 416 cams which are there version of the 264/272 combo. I got to looking at crowers site and the 414 cams are crowers 272/272 based cam.

Now as for springs and retainers, take this for what it's worth. My buddies car has had a set of bc 272s for the past 3 years on an evo 3 16g setup. We have been running the stock springs and retainers the whole time. I think we are getting away with it because we are not reving past 8k. Now the evo springs work on a lower lift cam because they hit the valve seals. I personally will be running either the stockers or the crowers I scored in a head I bought with a blown bottom end.

I am keeping my car balanced for street and autox as well. Based on the AMS cam test the HKS 264/272 made peak torque while the HKS 272/272 made peak horsepower on the 16g, both with a loss in spool and off boost performance. The HKS 264/264 made the most power while keeping stock spool and the same or better off boost power. For my goals it was a clear win. They tested the stock, HKS, Crower stage 3, Jun stage 3, and Web street cams.

I have heard a few bad things about the BC cams and springs on the forums but according to Dale (BogusSVO) who builds DSM heads he uses them all the time and has never had any issues or complaints with them.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Got a 2.4 6bolt off a buddy. I think compression is around 11.7:1 stock block. I have 4 engines now. =( I'm going to try to make some progress when i come home on leave in the next couple of weeks.

 

[1qkfwd]

I am keeping my car balanced for street and autox as well. Based on the AMS cam test the HKS 264/272 made peak torque while the HKS 272/272 made peak horsepower on the 16g, both with a loss in spool and off boost performance. The HKS 264/264 made the most power while keeping stock spool and the same or better off boost power. For my goals it was a clear win. They tested the stock, HKS, Crower stage 3, Jun stage 3, and Web street cams.

I have heard a few bad things about the BC cams and springs on the forums but according to Dale (BogusSVO) who builds DSM heads he uses them all the time and has never had any issues or complaints with them.

Wasn't the ams test done on an evo? I think with as hard as we are pushing the 14b turbo we need the engine to make as much off boost power as possible. Needs to have good midrange.

What bad things did you read about the bc cams. I'd BW interested in seeing what the issue was. Maybe some of the issues were machine work errors or tuning issues. Dale was the one that made mention about the higher lift cams and the evo springs.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Many people have had issues with the springs breaking. Not just in this platform. I also remember seeing a cam that broke as well.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Wasn't the ams test done on an evo? I think with as hard as we are pushing the 14b turbo we need the engine to make as much off boost power as possible. Needs to have good midrange.

It was on a '94 Talon with a '91 6 bolt.

 

[1qkfwd]

It was on a '94 Talon with a '91 6 bolt.

Its been a few years since I saw the cam test. I couldn't remember if the one I saw was there's or not. If that's the right test the hks cams where the lowest out of all the cams.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Its been a few years since I saw the cam test. I couldn't remember if the one I saw was there's or not. If that's the right test the hks cams where the lowest out of all the cams.

I posted the link but here it is again: AMS Infamous DSM Camshaft test | HKS | Crower| Jun | Web | Eagle Talon | 4g63 Cams

 

[hubz91talontsi]

After i looked into the lift of the BC272,HKS264's,and Kelfords i figured its good information to post.

Stock ---- -- -- 8.86/9.27mm
evo8 ----------- 9.32/9.80mm

Kelford272 - 11.00/11.00mm
HKS264 -- - -- 9.8/10.80mm
HKS272 -- - - 10.20/10.80mm
BC272 ------- 10.71/10.60mm
BC284/280 - 11.43/10.92mm

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

What bad things did you read about the bc cams. I'd BW interested in seeing what the issue was. Maybe some of the issues were machine work errors or tuning issues. Dale was the one that made mention about the higher lift cams and the evo springs.

Here is one on the springs. I'm not saying that their cams are terrible or shouldn't be used, they just don't tend to measure up when compared to HKS, FP, Kelfords, GSC's, etc. But I've also heard that on a budget they can offer great performance for the price.

 

[Phil1320]

now you running this 2.4, or still imagining running this engine??

rofl

Got a 2.4 6bolt off a buddy. I think compression is around 11.7:1 stock block. I have 4 engines now. =( I'm going to try to make some progress when i come home on leave in the next couple of weeks.

Awesome....toss one of em in the car and stop sitting at a desk weighing retainers

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Phil, if i could i would. I think i only worked on the car 1 day last year. Just find stuff i'd rather do when i come home on leave. Sad thing is if i don't get the car all together by this time next year it will be sitting for the another 2 years. I'll be out of the country for the next 2 years playing around in Greece.(fingers crossed)

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, if i could i would. I think i only worked on the car 1 day last year. Just find stuff i'd rather do when i come home on leave. Sad thing is if i don't get the car all together by this time next year it will be sitting for the another 2 years. I'll be out of the country for the next 2 years playing around in Greece.(fingers crossed)

Well get on it man!

Greece will be fun though. I'd drop DSMs in a heartbeat for 2 years in Greece.

You're up here in the thread quite a bit...this is the easy part. I for one want to see you get at least one of your set ups on the car and give it a go.

But, for old times sake....I gotta take my jabs at ya

 

[e85_4g63]

but, for old times sake....i gotta take my jabs at ya:d

rofl

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Lol, Ill just keep taking the shots for now, and someday hopefully i can return a few . You've been pretty sluggish the last year too.

 

[Phil1320]

Lol, Ill just keep taking the shots for now, and someday hopefully i can return a few . You've been pretty sluggish the last year too.

I had ZERO plans to be out this year so: GOAL MET!

I got edged by Nate....just barely....still holding down a solid #3 spot overall......not bad for taking a year off

You have yet to make the list.......

 

[hubz91talontsi]

You have yet to make the list.......

This is true.

Someday she'll be running in the near future. I'll be starting up a build thread in February hopefully. You're not Welcome for viewing, we don't like your kind . I plan on making some aero improvements and getting the front bumper ready for the forward facing manifold when i go to leave on the 30th.

 

[Phil1320]

This is true.

Someday she'll be running in the near future. I'll be starting up a build thread in February hopefully. You're not Welcome for viewing, we don't like your kind .

I see.....our kind(the ones that set the bar)aren't welcome.....

 

[Nate Crisman]

I got edged by Nate....just barely....still holding down a solid #3 spot overall......not bad for taking a year off

Im cranking away on my new car, I hope it comes out swinging in the spring time. Mostly held up by budget issues to buy pistons and machine work on the engine, but Iv been steadily working on the car itself. Next thing is to pull the windshield (going lexan. Then I'll start wiring and setting up the interior. Guess I'll have to toss an old junk block in there for mockup so we can start the tube front end.

Im crossing fingers for maybe 200lb lighter than 2011's setup and more than 3 runs per head.

14b is going back on though, so Im expecting to make some headway forward.

Racecar Build Timelapse - YouTube

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pwk-iPKnftE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Now as for springs and retainers, take this for what it's worth. My buddies car has had a set of bc 272s for the past 3 years on an evo 3 16g setup. We have been running the stock springs and retainers the whole time. I think we are getting away with it because we are not reving past 8k. Now the evo springs work on a lower lift cam because they hit the valve seals. I personally will be running either the stockers or the crowers I scored in a head I bought with a blown bottom end.

I ended up going with Kiggly's brand new Street Steel Beehive Springs. They were just released to the public today. They use the same beehive spring as his High Pressure setup but use the stock seats and a steel retainer which are only 7 grams (just 2 grams heaver then his titanium retainers) and the same weight as other manufacturers titanium retainers (Crower and Manley are both about 7 gram [from what I have read]) and half the weight of the stock steel retainers. And they are $100 less then his original Beehive kit. I also ordered a set of Viton valve stem seals since I never replaced the seals in my head when I did the turbo swap 2 years ago.

Im cranking away on my new car, I hope it comes out swinging in the spring time. Mostly held up by budget issues to buy pistons and machine work on the engine, but Iv been steadily working on the car itself. Next thing is to pull the windshield (going lexan. Then I'll start wiring and setting up the interior. Guess I'll have to toss an old junk block in there for mockup so we can start the tube front end.

Im crossing fingers for maybe 200lb lighter than 2011's setup and more than 3 runs per head.

14b is going back on though, so Im expecting to make some headway forward.

Racecar Build Timelapse - YouTube

Cool video! It does need some music or something though I like seeing the progress. I've been putting together a 2011 video all year which I will be finishing up and releasing in the next few days since I'm done racing for the year. It has clips from the road course, autox events, and of course plenty of drag passes. I'm pretty proud of it!

 

[ArcticTsi]

Racecar Build Timelapse - YouTube

Nate, Nice vid. Obviously know your way around a DSM. Was that an RCI seat I saw you test fitting.

Nathan, Looks like you have alot of goodies to go on the car. Should be making some nice power. Next year my friend, you will be climbing the the list I'm sure.