The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

I have already decided against the hasty motor swap for one track day idea, it was dumb to start with. What killed it is my injectors are at FIC being flow tested and I forgot all about that...can't run without them!

Nelson's vr4 broke the xcase output shaft on the first launch, which twisted the yoke on his dss driveshaft, making it an expensive piece of useless aluminum. End of day. We are going to run his car on sat again in hopes of nines.

 

[GRNDSM]

Smart move, Nate! Those rushed project almost never work out.

Nelson's vr4 broke the xcase output shaft on the first launch, which twisted the yoke on his dss driveshaft, making it an expensive piece of useless aluminum. End of day. We are going to run his car on sat again in hopes of nines.

Well, that sure sounds familiar...

 

[Pirrofab]

Deja-vu, Wasnt a twisted driveshaft just talked about a week or two ago?
Was it just the yoke that twisted on the shaft or did it manage to tweak the u joint and ears on the driveshaft? Also, was this a stock transfercase or a shep/ dogbox modded case with the 300m shaft? I know those require a larger dss yoke.

 

[91stocker]

My littlelest is turning 6 on Friday, hardly a baby . But I do have "Chelmsford Soccer" magnet on the back... Same idea .

Tonight I installed the exhaust cutout! Now I just have to make to the track!

Haha very nice. Love the car.

 

[Mr Peepers]

In my experience, a stock gasket with ARPs will shit the bed around 30 psi once you start to push the tune. On a soft tune it will live beyond that but you're taking a risk of damaging the head either way. If your 14b is tapering to ~15 psi, I would think it could take another ~100 shot on top of that.

L19's and composite $30 Felpro seems to work well at 30psi. It is easy to start getting aggressive with timing on a 14b though.

Standard ARP's I will 100% agree with, Kevin.

 

[forcefed86]

don't the felpros have a wire in the fire ring of the HG? My cheapo rebuild kit came with a composite gasket it had no wire in the fire ring. Not sure on OEM.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I don't believe so for the composites, but I though they did have a MLS with a built-in gas charged O-ring. Can't seem to find any info on it now though.

 

[beansblacktsi]

I have always ran 30$ felpro head gaskets with standard used arps and copper spray. 30+ psi all the way up to 37psi and I have never had one let go. That is on my own tune and I push it hard!

 

[GRNDSM]

Guys, I finally got a chance to review my DSM Link logs and I am suspicious of my GMIAT readings, (because of lack of considerable temperature raise).

On my first, cold run, it goes from 69 to 77 deg F
On next run (made back to back), it goes from 92 to 96 deg F (ambient temps were in the 60's)

In theory, that is the trend that I should be seeing, but those "after" numbers do not make sense. I am used to seeing them in the 120-130 deg range, even with good intercoolers. And I have some old IRC "race core", which is mostly obstructed by my stock front bumper cover. I suppose it is possible that 14b at 15psi flows so little, that a huge I/C soaks up a lot of heat and doesnt' increase much. What are the others seeing on 14b turbos?

That aside, I definitely need tuning! I am running ECM tuning's "out of the box", standard SD settings! Which tells me that they are a pretty good starting point!!! My O2's under WOT are in the low 10's, which is nice and safe for pump gas, but I should bring them in the low 11's range. There is room for improvement

 

[Nate Crisman]

With 14b and the water/air intercooler (ice water tank) and a 4" "ram air" intake pipe. Was an 80* day in June, running boost at "max" of about 25psi falling to 18psi as measured by the standard GM ait sensor in the TB elbow area:

• 55*F at the starting line
• 72* at 1-2 shift
• 88*F at 2-3 shift
• 107* at the OD shift (automatic)
• 118*F at the traps

I suspect you have an issue as well, even at 15psi of boost, I have a hard time believing your post intercooler air is barely changing 4-8*F on a dragstrip pass. My frozen air/water core doesn't perform that well for the first 2 seconds of the run from launch to the 1-2 shift when it's most effective!

 

[GRNDSM]

That is more like it . However, it is possible that 14b is SOOO inefficient above 20psi that it is making exponentially more heat, than it does at 15psi.

I do get a proper reading at idle.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

That seems about right for me. When went to the track 2 weeks ago, temps were in the low 60's. My IAT's drop until mid track and then come back up a tad by the end.

My first pass (I drove to the track so it wan't cold):

• IAT was 106* on the 2 step at the light
• Dropped to 95* around 75 MPH
• Was 99* at the end of the track at 107 MPH.

Last pass of the night (after 5 passes in 2 hours):

• IAT was 90* on the 2 step
• Dropped to 84* from 50-80 MPH
• Was 91* at the end of the track at 109 MPH.

My setup is a custom CAI in the bumper, VRSF FMIC, heat wrapped intake pipes, GM IAT which is installed just before the TB, stock unported 14b (hitting 20psi and dropping to 16psi) on a unported 2g manifold, 3" exhaust. My intercooler has always been cool to the touch, even on 100* plus days and autoxing.

 

[GRNDSM]

Great, thanks a lot guys for a conflicting data points .

Nathan's set-up is much closer to what I have, so perhaps my readings are legit!

Nate, what I often wondered about Air to Water ICs is their length. You can have coldest, best flowing IC, but if air doesn't spent enough time in contact with cold surfaces, it will not sufficiently cool off. Similar idea to running no thermostat in your cooling system.

I admit to being totally clueless when it comes to Air to Water ICs, but is it possible that an Air to Air IC is more efficient because of its size, even with higher "core temperatures"?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I admit to being totally clueless when it comes to Air to Water ICs, but is it possible that an Air to Air IC is more efficient because of its size, even with higher "core temperatures"?

Agreed. One of the things I have on my "would love to test" list is to swap the air/water ic out for an air/air without changing the boost control or engine tuning at all and see what difference it makes in boost/temp.

 

[SBstar]

No offense to Nate, but isn't his air/water an ebay cheapy though? I believe we've seen much better results from more efficient air to waters, forgive me if I'm wrong though.

I'm at a bit of a loss with this thing, I'd still like to do a leakdown test but I'm having trouble borrowing one locally. Not sure if advanced or autozone rent/loan them out but I might try calling them. I installed new 3g lifters and the lifter tick went away but there is still a tapping coming from what seems like the head area. I highly suspect the machine shop screwed up the valve guide/valve cutting job and didn't give the valve the proper height adjustments when they recut the seat. With the new lifters compression did go up to 110psi though, I almost wonder if the seat is wearing in or something? The only other thought is there was more damage to that piston from the valve taps then it looked like and something with the ring or landing got damaged. Either way I'm starting to source a new block to rebuild over the winter and I already have a 2g head available so I'll probably be making that swap.

 

[dsmtwins2g]

Well guys im a huge noob my friend has 91 talon Fwd I was wondering how much it can hold up to.
I know our motors can take a beating but we dont want to push it past its limit so any thoughts on what could be upgraded or what psi.hes looking to make a few passes on the 14b this weekend.
His mods are
rebuilt motor 6k miles
Fp mani
3in exhaust
hallman bc
2g intake
front mount
stock 14b
stock headgasket with stock head studs.

 

[Nate Crisman]

No offense to Nate, but isn't his air/water an ebay cheapy though? I believe we've seen much better results from more efficient air to waters, forgive me if I'm wrong though.

Yes, it's a cheap ic. Frozenboost.com sells it. But, on the other hand, my buddy GizmoVR4 has a big money Spearco brand air/water (was like $800 new) on his car that is about 3X the size and his temp curves are very similar to mine; starting out in the 40's-50's on the line and going well over 100*F at the traps. Granted, that's with a GT37r turbo @ 30psi. both running ice water, both using 4" cold air intakes, both with short route pipes.

If would totally test this out against another intercooler core or an air/air, but the fitment issues are plenty and Im not going to spend money and build all new pipes on a lark. The only cores that are even remotely close in size/shape that I could directly interchange with this one are the PWR barrel cores. Turbotrix runs one on their Evo8, and talking to Bean from TTR, he says the thing is unimpressive in results for being many hundreds of $.

If you have seen better results from different air/water cores...IE...datalogs....PLEASE let me know. I wasn't able to find crap online from people with DSM's with small turbo and air/water cores. And the ones I did find either wouldn't/couldn't share logs or were only guessing at the actual #s.

 

[1SloEvo]

It's almost a toss up in my opinion for intake temps. Personally, I plan to run my car sometimes on the street, so an air/water would not be optimal. At the track, it seems it's just a matter of what core you are using that makes the biggest difference. If you want ice cold temps, why not run an air/air setup and use a nitrous or cryo ring to cool it down? That seems to be the best of everything for me. Only thing you might have to take into consideration then is the weight difference.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

With my 16g on full kill mode, I see about a 20 degree rise on a "decent" 4" core (better than Ebay, not as good as Garrett). I would imagine at 15 psi I wouldn't see any temp rise at all with this core.

Also, no thermostat works fine in the race car, my temps never go over 150 degrees. I could keep them even lower if I wanted too, that just the point where I turn on the fan. Also, people are making 2000+ hp on air to water cores that are only 4-5 inches "long." They work so well that many of the fast turbo V8 guys have their own ice makers in their trailers. 118 degrees seems high on a small turbo and an air to water kit. Is this a barrel style core? How many lbs of ice does it melt on a pass?

Edit, just saw the last page. So this is a frozen boost long flow style? That layout almost never works very well. You give up the advantages of the air-water cores, and that is the very shallow depth that gives super low pressure drop, and the larger cross section that spreads the air out and cools it better. Bigger is also better. I'm far from an expert though, and most of what I know is from turbo V8s and not personal experience.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I may be able to fit a different ic into my budget for winter mods, especially after I chop the front end off and tube it, I'll have more freedom for fitment and piping route. Iv always thought my Ic was quite below ideal, but it did seem to deliver better air temps than the same $80 worth of air/air ebay core. haha.

As far as spraying nitrous on an intercooler: IMHO it's a giant waste to spray nitrous externally! Spray it into the intake not on the outside of the intercooler. you get ALL of the temp drop AND all of the oxygen content. With N20 being $5/lb, using it as an intercooler chiller is not very fiscally effective.

 

[GRNDSM]

If you are going to spray the outside of the IC, use the CO2, just make sure that it doesn't go into the intake

 

[YZFR1]

My 14b finally decided to cough up a lot of smoke today, now i need to decide if i need to buy a new one or rebuild mine.

And if i rebuild it, should i just scribe the line or send it out to get it balanced. It's hard to have so many important decisions/choices at my disposal..

 

[DJ23GSX]

My 14b finally decided to cough up a lot of smoke today, now i need to decide if i need to buy a new one or rebuild mine.

And if i rebuild it, should i just scribe the line or send it out to get it balanced. It's hard to have so many important decisions/choices at my disposal..

My best advice is to have it balanced if you plan on pushing it to it limits and beyond. Assuming your posting in this thread I highly doubt you plan on running it lightly

 

[GRNDSM]

Considering that you can pick up a 14b for as little as $50, I do not think I would bother with a rebuild, unless you are going for a record and NEED a pristine 14b

 

[YZFR1]

Assuming your posting in this thread I highly doubt you plan on running it lightly

I checked with Turbo City, it's only $35 to get it balanced plust the shipping fees, definetly worth the hussle, imo

Considering that you can pick up a 14b for as little as $50, I do not think I would bother with a rebuild, unless you are going for a record and NEED a pristine 14b

Record?? I just want some 14b ass kickary