The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Phil i'm glad you're going to keep trying as long as your personal life allows. Heck i know where you're coming from. I've been working "part time" for over a year now. Granted i work or i'm on call 7days a week but it's not a steady pay check some weeks. Luckily my wife has a good job, which worries me because she is thinking about changing jobs. If that falls through, we're both in big trouble. But if it works out well, it will be a big pay increase and you guys might be reading about me building up my block .

It is colder than hell on earth out there, but i think if you're able to, once it warms up a bit i would try to install the parts you have laying around so when the tracks open you're ready to give it all you and your talon got. FYI, doing the balance shaft removal with the engine in the car is not much fun. If you plan on cracking open the engine in any other way ie: cam install, i would probably recomend just pulling out the engine if you have access to a cherry picker. It's still doable, but wasn't very fun.

As for the SMIM, yeah i meant the extruded honed one. A smim would probably be way too much overkill for a 14b i would assume.

As for a small shot of nitrous on your car, wow. With a 1.4 60' as it is, i would think that you wouldn't be able to spray of the line. I think You would spin the slicks at that point, or get a record breaking 60' time. I think hitting in your top gear would probably give that 14b the boost it needs on top. No pun intended.

Sometimes i forget that your main theme with this car is to be a minimalist. I forget this cause with my car, i'm just trying to get some more respectable 14b times (say low 12's street car) by making this thing light while staying streetable. Then once i meet that goal i'd like to put on a bigger turbo and see if can't drop a second off my e/t. Should make for a really fun car. Fairly light making 400-500 awhp.
Well Phil, give it your best as you always do, and do what you can. Keep us posted.

BTW: How's the GVR4 treating you, has it been your snow car lately?

It's been tough, for sure. I will do what I can and hope that I can make some passes this year.

I do plan to pull the engine out of the car. I'll just rent the cherry picker and a friend has an engine stand I can use or I can buy one. Yeah I would not attempt to do any of that work with it in the car.

As far as SMIM goes, pneumo and Joe B.(ok his was Hawver cast but short runner)make it work with their set-ups. But, for me, I'm good with the stocker. I actually saw a stocker with the plenum cut off and a larger round plenum in it's place....looked interesting.

Yep, just wanna keep it in the basic theme. But, there may be a day when the engine does need some freshening, and that could get interesting.

And something to accelerate the possibility of that=NOS. I've never used it, and yes, I could only envision spraying 4th gear for some extra pull at the top. I know you can set NOS up on a WOT switch and so with the stutterbox in and being at WOT on the line for several seconds, that doesn't seem like a smart proposition....again I don't know much about those set-ups but I'm assuming there's NOS controls in DSM link or AEM. NOS off the line might net a very low 60' time though......maybe a 1.20 but everything would probably shatter!

I will give it my best Trav....thanks for the push...you've always been one of my strongest supporters....

The VR4 is my winter car as of now. It is performing ok. I gave a look over once I put 1000 miles on it and did locate an oil leak at the filter housing but haven't been able to pinpoint it. It's not huge, but it will create drops on the bottom of the housing. The car has several things that need to be addressed still. It has an exhaust leak, thought it was the flex in the DP, but it's not, so I'm thinking it's pre-turbo at the manifold. You can hear an associated "flutter" on start up and shut down. You can also smell a bit through the vents-sucks now that it's cold out and we don't ride around with windows open. That would explain why I think it's so slow if it's leaking boost. I honestly think the knock sensor is bad as well. The car seems to wake up around 4,000 and from there seems to pull well, but, I didn't sign up for VTEC, I want my power sooner than that! I'll go through it all when it's a bit warmer and the snow is gone for good, then I can just pull it all apart and drive the truck while it's down.

14b potential. Amazing thread here.

I am looking to run some good times this year on the 14b myself and am contemplating a few upgrades.

So far the upgrades go as such,

14b, ported 6cm housing
2.5 tubular o2/external dump
stock engine minus balance shafts
wally 190
evo9 560's
maf-t
Safc
act 2900 (yeah i know, overkill, but it works great and i got it for a steal!) with a street disk
act streetlight
built tranny (evo forks and rails, double synchros and some other stuff)
3 inch turboback
boost/oil press/ AEM UEGO Wbo2
MBC
shfter mods (bearings on the cables, aluminum bushings elsewhere)
Evo8 FMIC w/ custom long route piping
Punishment racing radiator (cause the stock one was junk anyways)
minor weight reduction (rear crash beam, half the front crash beam, sound deadening and misc brackets. (will be removing the rear seats for track days)
1g bov (stock, probably replacing with a Tial soon)

Now, I'm definitely ditching the S-afc for ECMlink V3 lite, but will keep the Maf-t for now, becuase I already have it, and i cant sell it for the difference to upgrade to full V3. (440 for lite with the eprom conversion versus 665 for full v3)

the two other mods I am currently considering for the car this year to max out the 14b (and subsequently prepare for the 16g/68hta) are:

Cams (thinking a 264/272 would be best here... Opinions?)
Fp Race manifold. Gots to be better than the stock unported 1g auto (yes i opened up the outlet) manifold on there now.

Anything else i should consider before these mods?

Looks like you've got a strong set-up. FP Race Mani, I say a big yes on that, there is a significant difference over the ported 2G. Cams, I don't have any experience with on my own car. But, from what I've known other guys to run, the 264/272 should help for sure.

Do you have a target ET goal set that you want to meet?

Boost level you will run?

Depending on your driving skill, with the weight I'm guessing your car is you should be able to see sub 12.5's fairly easily....

 

[Pirrofab]

As far as SMIM goes, pneumo and Joe B.(ok his was Hawver cast but short runner)make it work with their set-ups. But, for me, I'm good with the stocker. I actually saw a stocker with the plenum cut off and a larger round plenum in it's place....looked interesting.

Buschur did this in part of his intake manifold testing with an Evo and he said he would never build one again or sell it to the public due to the amount of power it actually lost throughout the range. Im sure a bit of R+D into the product could change this but reading his write up during the testing may save you the time of trying it yourself. IMO I think a smaller plenum then what bushur used would have saved power. Its over exaggerated but his homade intake looked like a keg welded onto the intake runners.

 

[talontd92tsi]

Looks like you've got a strong set-up. FP Race Mani, I say a big yes on that, there is a significant difference over the ported 2G. Cams, I don't have any experience with on my own car. But, from what I've known other guys to run, the 264/272 should help for sure.

Do you have a target ET goal set that you want to meet?

Boost level you will run?

Depending on your driving skill, with the weight I'm guessing your car is you should be able to see sub 12.5's fairly easily....

I would like to see some 12.50's or better that would be nice. I am thinking around 18-20psi, or basically whatever i can get away with without knock. I am sticking to 93 octane though, no racegas for me. I hear some guys get knock at 18psi on 14b's and 560's and i see other guys who can run 20-21psi with minimal knock. I guess I could always back off the timing via ECMlink but would it run better with more timing and less boost or the opposite. Who knows? I figure if i am able to get (and keep) the AFR's between 11-11.5:1 on pump gas I dont see any problems with knock. currently it runs about 11:1 up to 6k and falls back into the 10.5:1 range by 6500-7k.

 

[Phil1320]

Buschur did this in part of his intake manifold testing with an Evo and he said he would never build one again or sell it to the public due to the amount of power it actually lost throughout the range. Im sure a bit of R+D into the product could change this but reading his write up during the testing may save you the time of trying it yourself. IMO I think a smaller plenum then what bushur used would have saved power. Its over exaggerated but his homade intake looked like a keg welded onto the intake runners.

Ahhhhh. Ok, scratch that. I seem to remember either Mach V or maybe it was Dejon having a sheetmetal intake that didn't have super short runners. I considered it way back and then the idea kinda just went dead. That Buschur intake did look pretty weird.

I would like to see some 12.50's or better that would be nice. I am thinking around 18-20psi, or basically whatever i can get away with without knock. I am sticking to 93 octane though, no racegas for me. I hear some guys get knock at 18psi on 14b's and 560's and i see other guys who can run 20-21psi with minimal knock. I guess I could always back off the timing via ECMlink but would it run better with more timing and less boost or the opposite. Who knows? I figure if i am able to get (and keep) the AFR's between 11-11.5:1 on pump gas I dont see any problems with knock. currently it runs about 11:1 up to 6k and falls back into the 10.5:1 range by 6500-7k.

I think on pump you can still rip mid 12's. 18 psi should put you in the 12's just as long as you have a good running engine. If you only want to run on pump 93 than meth injection would help your cause for sure and let you keep the timing on the aggressive side.

I got down to 13.44@101 with filter, 3" ATR cat-back, and MBC with boost at only 15psi, still blowing through the stock cat and all on pump gas. After this outing, I hollowed the stock cat, started running boost around 18psi with a little race gas and ran right down to 12.72@108. That's all that was done to the car for power. No portwork, stock downpipe, I/C pipes, I/C, etc. Adding ported 2G mani, turbine housing, and 2.5" DP put me at 12.49@107. Then I added the O2 dump, played with timing and was more agressive with weight reduction and was at 12.29@110. Granted, every car is different, every driver is different, but, a good running 14b car should be able to produce times like these with minimal mods. Basically, any good running 14b car, even with minimal weight reduction like yours should live in the 12's.

 

[Gooberlog]

The car seems to wake up around 4,000 and from there seems to pull well, but, I didn't sign up for VTEC, I want my power sooner than that!

Phil i was dying when i first read this Glad yo hear you're gunna give it what you got.

would it run better with more timing and less boost or the opposite.

Maybe with an external wastegate. At full throttle i creep past 20psi (3" turbo back).

 

[talontd92tsi]

Phil i was dying when i first read this Glad yo hear you're gunna give it what you got.


Maybe with an external wastegate. At full throttle i creep past 20psi (3" turbo back).

With my ported hot side and the external dump o2 I don't really creep at all right now i have it set to 15 and it pretty much stays there, maybe 1 or 2 psi but thats hard to notice at 100mph. The only time i saw it near 20 psi is when i blew the vacuum line off the mbc (low quality vac hose) and it spiked to ... around 23psi, but it was noticeable because the dump shut so i caught it quick.

I guess i will just have to start logging a bunch after i get link.

 

[Gooberlog]

Oh, good to hear. Maybe i should have spent some of my time porting.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Well ordering my new rods this week sometime and then new rings for my Pistons and going to send the block and head to the machine shop to have them checked over. Nate at TPG is going to help me put the shortblock together, hopefully here in a few weeks i want to make many passes this season.

EDIT:
I guess ill add more to this, i plan on feeding the turbo from the housing now and getting a 14b beefed up by Justin to handle 25+ psi.

Currently what im interior looks like .

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[Pirrofab]

Well ordering my new rods this week sometime and then new rings for my Pistons and going to send the block and head to the machine shop to have them checked over. Nate at TPG is going to help me put the shortblock together, hopefully here in a few weeks i want to make many passes this season.

EDIT:
I guess ill add more to this, i plan on feeding the turbo from the housing now and getting a 14b beefed up by Justin to handle 25+ psi.

Currently what im interior looks like .

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How do you beef up a 14b to handle 25psi+? I thought these things were hair dryers at 20-21psi. Only extensive port work can get them to be a bit better.

 

[Phil1320]

How do you beef up a 14b to handle 25psi+? I thought these things were hair dryers at 20-21psi. Only extensive port work can get them to be a bit better.

I'm curious too.....I really think the sweet spot is 21 psi, but, I have a smaller FMIC than all these guys run, so.....but, in my opinion there's really no way to make the 14b "efficient" at boost levels past 18 psi. I'm not sure super high boost is the answer to more power on the 14b. I guess each set up will vary.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Lol, im running 23psi now and its starting to smoke i just want it to last longer. ^ Im on stock sidemount .

 

[habitatguy187]

but, in my opinion there's really no way to make the 14b "efficient" at boost levels past 18 psi.

e85 or water/meth injection will push any turbo's efficiency range way past the "sweet spot".


On a side note, does anyone know how much boost Joe Bucci ran on his record pass?

 

[Nate Crisman]

e85 or water/meth injection will push any turbo's efficiency range way past the "sweet spot".


On a side note, does anyone know how much boost Joe Bucci ran on his record pass?

The way I see it, when you are running methanol as main fuel along with an Air/Water IC, the effeciency of the turbocharger becomes somewhat moot, as the chemical intercooling will reduce air temperature so much that running the turbo at 70% efficiency or 50% efficiency isn't going to end up significantly different.

But the choke flow point of the compressor is the ending limitation on a 14b setup, obviously most of us are going to end up running the turbo at damn near choke flow rate the whole way down the track.

 

[pneumo]

But the choke flow point of the compressor is the ending limitation on a 14b setup, obviously most of us are going to end up running the turbo at damn near choke flow rate the whole way down the track.

That's the whole idea! It's not about the turbo's efficiency, just maximize the airflow. Use the intercooler or fuel to make up for the poor efficiency.

I don't know if I said it in this thread or another thread, but anyone who runs a 14b over 20 psi should get a stainless oil feed line. The stock line from the head has a restrictor built into it and might not supply enough cool oil for the speeds the turbo needs to spin when pushing the limits.

I say this because I took apart my 14b one month after setting the record and the thrust bearing was shot. There was about 3mm in/out play. I was still using the stock feed line from the head.

 

[talontd92tsi]

I don't know if I said it in this thread or another thread, but anyone who runs a 14b over 20 psi should get a stainless oil feed line. The stock line from the head has a restrictor built into it and might not supply enough cool oil for the speeds the turbo needs to spin when pushing the limits.

This is interesting. I have never heard this before. Sounds like good insurance anyways.

Do you recomend stainless from the head or from the OFH?

I wonder if your failure was directly related to this or if there was some other catalyst. It makes sense, but wouldn't it affect more 16g guys as well who push their setups into the 25psi range?

Of course this is comparing apples to oranges, as i have no idea how fast the shaft would be spinning in a 16g@25psi versus a 14b@20psi.

Just rambling.

Soo...wheres that stainless feed line at anyways?

 

[SBstar]

I have a stainless line from Bonehead peformance, seems to work great. Fed from the head btw.

I've been told that you should run a restrictor if you're running from the OFH as otherwise you're going to be getting too much oil pressure to the turbo.

I don't know for sure what Joe was running for boost, but I do know at one time he mentioned running as much as 25psi in his project goodwill log. Doesn't mean he kept it there of course.

 

[pneumo]

This is interesting. I have never heard this before. Sounds like good insurance anyways.

Do you recomend stainless from the head or from the OFH?

I wonder if your failure was directly related to this or if there was some other catalyst. It makes sense, but wouldn't it affect more 16g guys as well who push their setups into the 25psi range?

Of course this is comparing apples to oranges, as i have no idea how fast the shaft would be spinning in a 16g@25psi versus a 14b@20psi.

Just rambling.

Soo...wheres that stainless feed line at anyways?

I also recomend feeding it from the head. While the head has a bad rep from having low pressure at idle, it can still deliver around 40 psi pressure at higher rpm, while the OFH can go over 100 psi easily when the balance shafts are out.

As for other catalysts, I'm not sure. I used Mobil 1 full synthetic oil, I have an air cooled oil cooler, I always run the fans and drive slow in the last few miles before stopping the car so coolant and oil temps are nice and low. I always do about 5 minutes of cooldown between drag runs. Maybe it was because I raced it with the wasegate hose disconnected for 3 months straight?!

 

[talontd92tsi]

Maybe it was because I raced it with the wasegate hose disconnected for 3 months straight?!

What... that... NOOOOO that wouldn't have hurt it

Sounds like something I will be investing in, hell for under 50 bucks its good insurance, plus mine is...ohhh 18 years old and has 134k on it... its probably ready to fall apart anyways. ...

 

[Nate Crisman]

I also recomend feeding it from the head. While the head has a bad rep from having low pressure at idle, it can still deliver around 40 psi pressure at higher rpm, while the OFH can go over 100 psi easily when the balance shafts are out.

As for other catalysts, I'm not sure. I used Mobil 1 full synthetic oil, I have an air cooled oil cooler, I always run the fans and drive slow in the last few miles before stopping the car so coolant and oil temps are nice and low. I always do about 5 minutes of cooldown between drag runs. Maybe it was because I raced it with the wasegate hose disconnected for 3 months straight?!

It's not like you don't get the same result as running with no wastegate line at all when you set a target boost of say 28 and the turbo hits 28 then tapers off with rpm. The wastegate is shut anyway the whole time once you hit that choke flow rate. Iv never run without a controller, so I'm not sure how high a 14b can spike at 30000rpm.

 

[Pirrofab]

I wish I could trust my set up to pull the wastegate line off the turbo just to see what it would do. most I ever ran was 20-22psi and it was down right scary for torque steer. as far as the stock oil feed line not holding up my car has been fed from the factory line to the original turbo since day one. I've ran 20psi for 3 years on it now and still no smoke or issues. Then again... cool down periods and actual abuse we put our cars through and how often they are abused changes the reliability. my car is my dd with 216k on the stock bottom end right now. My car must be on miracle miles...

It's not like you don't get the same result as running with no wastegate line at all when you set a target boost of say 28 and the turbo hits 28 then tapers off with rpm. The wastegate is shut anyway the whole time once you hit that choke flow rate. Iv never run without a controller, so I'm not sure how high a 14b can spike at 30000rpm.

 

[pneumo]

What... that... NOOOOO that wouldn't have hurt it

It seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Lol my wastegate has never been connected . When i put my new intercooler pipe on i accidentlly hit 23psi on stock 450s but only in first gear . 113 % IDC .

 

[Phil1320]

My name is Phil, and I used to run 20 psi on stock fuel pump and injectors

 

[emo1010]

we ran 23-24 psi on ours with 450's but we had a 255 whinebro, fpr and c-16. At 23psi a 14b is blowing some how at ass air , in my opinion the key is getting it cooled back down. This is why I think the liquid to air is so important to making power with a 14b.

 

[Pirrofab]

we ran 23-24 psi on ours with 450's but we had a 255 whinebro, fpr and c-16. At 23psi a 14b is blowing some how at ass air , in my opinion the key is getting it cooled back down. This is why I think the liquid to air is so important to making power with a 14b.

all this talk of 14b's over 20psi really has me contemplating making one final stab at a 13 second pass with my fwd. just pull the wastegate line and attempt to just roll out of the lights. my car stands at a 14.1 its been a spin monster and is in need of slicks. Just maybe doin this will give me the top end and mid track pull to get the job done. Ofcourse i'll do this after the awd is up and going because with my luck it will be the last time the fwd runs.

Out of curiousity has anyone ever tried spring rubbers for the suspension to help with weight transfer and launching and 60ft times? wether it be fwd or awd? its a cheap quick way to stiffen things up and make the cars sit a bit taller in the rear for fwd guys.