supporting mods for FP Green?

[NosLaser]

...Don't get the Web's, atleast for the Big28 ..get HKS imo. ....

Can I ask why you feel this way?

Regards,

 

[rdrkt]

Some people seem to be in love with trying something different. Those are the people that usually end up spending a ton of money and not getting the results they are after and get frustrated. John Shepherd uses a pair of 272s, Marco from Magnus uses 272s I have seen a bunch of other guys getting big numbers on 272s. I have also seen a lot of people go from webs to HKS and do a lot better.

Im not rich enough to try a bunch of new things. I like to see what has consistently worked for other people and try to apply that to my setup whether that be cams or dope turbos.

Larry speed is a drug and it looks like the go fast crack pipe has hit you very hard. Things are going to get incredibly expensive to go from 300-400+ hp. Just think over what it is you are looking for in a street car keep in mind what you will need to do differently from the track to the street. From what I have seen the Green is nearly an ideal pump gas turbo. I have seen a few people make 400+ hp on pump gas. You are not going to see the big difference between the red and the green until you move to big boost (27+psi) on c16.

 

[Violater101]

In response as to the webs, I have heard they don't work well with the Big28. I know of a guy who had web's on his car with the Big28 and it wasn't running properly. They thought it was the turbo, but then they swapped a different turbo in from another guy who is using HKS and they still had the same problem. This is just speculation on my part, but not all setups work well with web's. I just wouldn't take any chances. Robert told me he recommended the HKS 264/264.

 

[NosLaser]

This is exactly what I mean. "I think X product sucks because he said that she said that one guy in this one town once knew a guy who.." and that's what you guys base your decisions on? And trying something new or different?? Web has been around MUCH MUCH longer than HKS, and they make cams for people running 3 times the HP that ANY DSM has. My point is, do some research on the PRODUCT, not on someone's opinion of the product. Just like some people are infatuated with trying something different, most people are infatuated with spending more money on one thing than they have to, and having the idea planted in their head that if it's more expensive, then it has to be better. Everyone in my 'group' switched from HKS to Web and they all picked up horsepower, so it's different in every situation. The Web cams WILL make more power because they are more aggressive than the HKS cams. You cannot argue that. It is a fact. Read my post in HKS vs. Web cams and make your own decision.

Regards,

 

[rdrkt]

So if some V8 company makes good cams that means that everything that they touch will turn to gold in the import world? Shepherd, Marco and Curt Brown are hardly some guys its not here say or he said she said. They make 500hp+ to the wheels and are in the 10s or lower. There are a lot more examples of normal people making big power on 272s so I know that I can duplicate their results. Personally that’s all I need to be convinced. I also reread your old post its very technical and I cant begin to claim that I can understand and follow it all. What I didn’t see was examples of great build quality and big power being made is a DSM coming from other manufactures which at the end of the day is what I care about.

 

[jw]

Things like cams are something a little too technical for everyone to understand. These are what laymen need to know when purchasing cams:
1) How does it idle, what is the vacuum at idle?
2) When it start making power, what kind of powerband?
3) How reliable is the cam? (I have seen pictures of webcam with "ears")

Seriously, we dont need to know the overlap, duration, lift and all that since they are just numbers to any laymen. It does not tell them anything in another words.

So in all, get whatever people used and proved to work without issues. Period.

 

[NosLaser]

rdrkt,

That's fair enough. I do understand where you are coming from, I'd just personally like to see more people in the DSM community really understanding WHY they are buying a product. If you are looking to follow the traveled path, then that's cool, and you WILL see results. I just want to weed out the accusations that the Webs aren't as good as the HKS just because not as many people use them. That's all. Just an FYI, the HKS cams have less lift and less duration, and the reason they 'look' big on paper is because they are measured at 1mm lift, whereas the Webs are measured at .050. Either way, you have a choice and that's why God made menus. But, the less expensive, less traveled path is not always less powerful.

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

....Seriously, we dont need to know the overlap, duration, lift and all that since they are just numbers to any laymen. It does not tell them anything in another words. ....

Well, in my opinion, it's pretty good to know WHY you are using a particular product. If everyone had your attitude, there would be no improvement. We'd still have stock cams in our cars because they work, and a big company like Mitsubishi uses them. But, there are better cams out there, like the HKS, Webs and Crowers, right? Maybe somewhere in my blind and stupid mindset I try to educate people so they know WHY they are doing something; why a product works, why they should spend their hard earned money on one thing over another rather than just being sheep and following the crowd. If no one listens to or benefits from my long drawn out technical posts, should I even bother typing them? It's not doing me any good, it's simply used to help people who may actually be interested in how to make power. Or, would you guys listen and be interested if I was Marco at Magnus, or Robert at Forced Performance? I do sincerely apologize for wasting space on here typing out technical responses that no one cares about anyway.

Regards,

 

[GSTspeedracer]

I care.........

 

[jw]

Originally posted by NosLaser

Well, in my opinion, it's pretty good to know WHY you are using a particular product. If everyone had your attitude, there would be no improvement. We'd still have stock cams in our cars because they work, and a big company like Mitsubishi uses them. But, there are better cams out there, like the HKS, Webs and Crowers, right? Maybe somewhere in my blind and stupid mindset I try to educate people so they know WHY they are doing something; why a product works, why they should spend their hard earned money on one thing over another rather than just being sheep and following the crowd. If no one listens to or benefits from my long drawn out technical posts, should I even bother typing them? It's not doing me any good, it's simply used to help people who may actually be interested in how to make power. Or, would you guys listen and be interested if I was Marco at Magnus, or Robert at Forced Performance? I do sincerely apologize for wasting space on here typing out technical responses that no one cares about anyway.

Regards,

I totally believe you did it with good intention and many will think the same. Like I have said, all these information is not for laymen. At the end of the day, all they need to know is which one works. Plain and simple, I worked in a computer related field, actually more into semiconductors. When my friends or customer asked me about something of my specialty, I explained to them with technical stuff and hoping they understand me. At the end of the day, all they want me to tell them which will work to their application. Now, do I tell them off because I have just wasted 15-20mins of my life explaining things to them?

 

[NJGSX96]

Aslan, I for one like to read technical information. I can barely understand it, but I do like to know what i am really doing to my engine and what I am putting into it. If you choose not to write out technically drawn out post, do me a favor and email them to me. this goes for anyone else that has the technical information. Send it to me!! I like to learn.

Yes, most people just want to know will it work, idle right, etc. But if
you are modding your car, you should understand a little more than that. If you are doing your own work, even more so. And if you don't, you should WANT to know why. And if you could care less, skip over the post. I for one like when someone says, "Well, why you doing that?" and I can reply with a real answer, other than, "So I can go faster, duh!".

One great thing about this board is you get BOTH answers. Someone will post something like "it'll work, idle right, go faster" and someone else will post the technical stuff.

 

[GSTspeedracer]

Not to be an @ss or anything..............
But about these cam thread's. It seems people are often concerned about how they want their close to stock idle. WHO CARES!!!!! if you want the power you can't be near stock anything. I personally like the sound up some big cams. Nothing compairs to a big V8 on big cams. PLOP PLOP PLOP and you know he's got some sh@t under the hood.

I always hear people say my car sounds like it has an exhaust leak or it has a miss in it, that leads back to Aslan's sig." ignorance should be painful" ( I think thats what it said).
Seriuosly have you ever heard of quite cams!
Performance has it's price. Most people will sh@t their pants the first time they hear an Externally wastegated turbo. Sounds like nothing else.
Bang for the buck you can't go wrong with a BIG set of CAMS in your car. It's like a golden rule for V8 guys Heads and Cams! Why would this be any different for us? More air you can stuff in that thing equals more power!

My .02

 

[dsmtrance]

Since we're on to a Web vs. HKS vs. Crower cam discussion I have a question. I am going to be purchasing some HKS cams SOON (I've done ALOT of research and have decided on these). My question is...how "streetable" would the 272/272 combo be??? I was set on getting the 264/272 combo, but if the 272's are still "somewhat" streetable (car is about 75% track driven...not a daily driver, but sees the street on weekends and such) I am leaning towards making the most power I can.

 

[Violater101]

In response to NOSLaser, I have talked to this guy personally and I and not going to give out names. This was like I said MY opinion on HKS vs Web's. I did ask Robert personally about a 264/272 combo and he said he recommended the 264/264 combo because its seemed to work well on there car that ran the 12 smth on the 28 so why rock the boat.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Ludachris]

Before we get into the Web vs. HKS again, let's not get too far off subject. Larry seems hesitant to go with cams so let's not start forcing our favorites on him.

Larry, it sounds to me like you're just bored at work and are starting to day dream of a bigger turbo I do that all the time.... maybe stickier tires first? More tuning? I wouldn't give up on your setup just yet. I'm not sure how many miles you have on your car, but chances are you may need some tranny work done in the near future. If that's the case, might as well go for a good LSD while you're in there.

 

[GSTspeedracer]

Larry, it sounds to me like you're just bored at work and are starting to day dream of a bigger turbo I do that all the time....

AMEN....I do that all the time.............gotta do something at work, they are paying me!

 

[larryd]

nah, i day dream all the time .. Im just wanting more power but I guess not wanting to spend hte $$.. who knows

 

[candela]

i dont even kow if this will get read.. Ive been on this site for about 1 week now and can't stay off. Everything that everyone of you post helps myself and others out whether you know it or not. I am appreciative of all the kowledge and time you all put in to some of these threads... Just a big thanks thats all!!!

 

[laserjay]

Anyone have any thoughts on Gude Bullfrog cams for DSM cars. They take your stock cams as a core and regrind them. They claim to have a power band through 7800 rpm. I had them in my Laser for about a month and went to Buschur to have my car diagnosed (turned out to be leaky caps in the ECU) and when he saw my list of mods he told me those cams were junk because they were reground, and talked me into HKS. Gude seems to push them as the flagship of their company. I still have them and they only have about 15 miles on them (not 15,000 just 15). I was going to sell them on eBay. If anyone has any knowledge of them or is interested in buying them let me know please. For more info go to www.gude.com

 

[crankbender]

The trouble with a stock cam core is that you have to add metal to the cam to get a higher lift and longer duration. This isn't usually a good technique to make quality product because it is hard to do correctly. However many nascar teams (those guys valve float all the time) are now taking the center of their cam lobes out and adding another metal in there.....it is cutting down on their cam parties because the new technique is making some very very strong cams. This isn't to say it is compared to the cams nascar uses but that it can be effective if it is done correctly.

 

[larryd]

ive heard nothing but bad things about regrinds..

 

[crankbender]

I havn't heard anything good from anybody that isn't buying 3,000 dollar cams either (and heard nothing personally from them). then again those cams are specifically made to be ground so they are new and the grinding/welding is part of the making process.

 

[HighPsi91]

I have run Web 453/228 regrinds for a while and they made good top end power, but thats all they did good. For this year I dumped them for HKS 272/272. Theres no arguing with the results that the "fast" guys are getting with HKS camshafts. I have witnessed several cars with web street grinds... and as far as I am concerned they are crap in comparison to the HKSs. The web street grinds have too small an exhaust cam and idle too shitty for the power they make. I have been in cars with HKS 264/272 combo and you can barely tell theres upgraded cams in it. Plus they pull awesome up top. The 272/272 are very streetable cams as well and really are no worse than webs street grinds as far as idle and driveablity go. I can not comment on crowers... I have never seen a car with them yet.

On the subject of regrinds. When a dsm cam (or most any cam) is reground material is NOT added to the lobes. The base circle of the lobe is ground to a smaller diameter. This in turn gives the cam grinder the available lift and duration to grind their profile. The downside to this process is if the base circle is reduced enough the lash adjusters cannot extend far enough to take up all the valve lash. In this case you will have to shim the lash adjusters up a bit. I used a small flat washer under each of my lash adjutsers on the intake side. The exhaust side did not require any shimming. There was no ticking or abnormal wear. In fact the regrinds wore much better than webs new billets. Also the regrinds were indexed much better than webs new billets. Regrinds are not a bad thing like many people have been led to believe... just misunderstood.

I am the type of guy who is willing to try new and different things and in most cases I have been very pleased with my findings. However, in the case of cams I have to agree its best to use what has been tried and proven. There is a reason that most of the top 10 fastest dsms have tried webs at one time and have now ALL switched back or are switching back to HKS.

 

[larryd]

thanks for the information.. this seems to be what more adn more people have been telling me lately.. so id say im either gonna go with Crower becuase of the deal i can get on crower or the HKS cams..

 

[laserjay]

So eBay it is. I appreciate all of the interesting facts. I'll be sure to list all of the ups in my auction listing. thanks.