Straight meth, who runs it in their system only

[turboglenn]

I know from searching a ton of old posts theres some on on here running high 20's for timing, high 28-30psi boost nd claiming 12.5:1 AFR..they were talking about upgrading both nozzles to i think it was an M17 and M15 for it..

If this is you please speak up, i need to pick your brain a little if you don't mind..post here or PM me.. i'd rather post it all though if you don't mind so others can find it easy in the future. I've only found you in a handfull of threads

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

LotsO'Meth crew member #1 checking in. haha

I'm running 2 nozzles, an M7 and an M15 nozzle together... at 150 psi. 100% meth (VP Racing M1).

Running ~30 psi with no knock, 19ish degrees of timing with no knock. AFRs are high 10's. Seeing around 56 lb/min peak in DSMlink, MAFT calibrated. I'm suffering from a very undersized FMIC setup (won't run on straight pump gas without injection, knocks at anything above 15 psi) Remember that with big meth injection setups you will need to tune for a lower AFR, as widebands are designed to display AFRs for gasoline. Stoichiometric for meth is very low(6.4:1?) so even though meth effectively raises octane, you will need to tune for a "richer" AFR than you normally would due to the difference in stoich values. Just tune for no knock, forget the actual AFR value. Each car, sensor, gauge etc will all be different.

 

[yukondoit]

eclipse, o2 sensor really read lambda, no matter what fuel your runing lambda is a value of 1 being stoich, and .92-.94 lambda being peak horsepower. With that being said what you see on sensor configured for gasoline is your lambda scalled by 14.7 so, when the sensor reads 1 you see 14.7 or stoich. I run on e85 or less, flex fuel system so i always refer to lambda to avoid confusion.

 

[turboglenn]

LotsO'Meth crew member #1 checking in. haha

I'm running 2 nozzles, an M7 and an M15 nozzle together... at 150 psi. 100% meth (VP Racing M1).

Running ~30 psi with no knock, 19ish degrees of timing with no knock. AFRs are high 10's. Seeing around 56 lb/min peak in DSMlink, MAFT calibrated. I'm suffering from a very undersized FMIC setup (won't run on straight pump gas without injection, knocks at anything above 15 psi) Remember that with big meth injection setups you will need to tune for a lower AFR, as widebands are designed to display AFRs for gasoline. Stoichiometric for meth is very low(6.4:1?) so even though meth effectively raises octane, you will need to tune for a "richer" AFR than you normally would due to the difference in stoich values. Just tune for no knock, forget the actual AFR value. Each car, sensor, gauge etc will all be different.

You were the person i was looking for thanks for chiming in! Are you having to run that high of nozzles to get an effective amount of meth to keep knock off? I think i hit the limits of an M10 nozzle on stock pump pressure ( no idea what it is though) because i started getting higer EGT's and more knock again so i had to richen it back up to 11.5:1 and back the timing back off from 20 to 16*. I've started a fresh dedicated meth tune.

So i'm wondering if i should go with more water in the mix again or bigge and or more nozzles and keep straight meth?... I've seen dsm-onster made good numbers on straight water.... I'm making a new map from scratch to learn the meth the best i can, but i'm at a crossroads right now and looking for advice. I don't care what i use in it, i'm solely after results, it doens't bother me to say water injection or meth injection as long as it gets the job done I'd run horse piss in the thing

More nozzles, or add more water back in the mix?

OR..and a big question is...what about straight water? How effective is that?



In my new tune i'm trying to keep 11.5:1 through the entire RPM range, With the meth on. How's this sound eclipse1736???


Now that i can datalog the wideband it's making it wasier to tune by myself. Usually i have some one else drive so i can tune, but on my car when i'm alone i have to floor it , watch teh wideband and have a finger on the "home key" to take me to teh cell i need to change whrn i see an AFR that needs changed... I mainly i never hooked it up because it gets used on a lot of cars and it would have been more wiring just to throw a tune on a car, and i can normally do that complete from scratch in 2-3 hours (not including mounting and hooking it up to get it to run) How's this sound eclipse1736???

 

[SpeedAddict62]

I figured I would jump in here and agree with yukondoit, 02 sensors read lambda, not actual AFR. Since your wideband is configured for gasoline, it will use a stoich value of approx. 14.7:1. For example, if you ran straight meth at a stoich mixture, a gasoline configured wideband would still read 14.7:1 AFR, even though thats not your actual AFR. Just wanted to make that clear, that just because you run meth doesn't mean you have to richen up to compensate. Now you might have to make it richer or leaner, but that would vary from car to car.

I'm sorry I can't contribute more to this discussion turboglenn, although I'm interested to see what the results are. In the near future I hope to be running meth injection so I'll keep an eye on this thread. I'd really like to know what the limits of pump + meth are.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Yes I know widebands read lambda. What I'm saying is the target AFR for tuning on large amounts of meth injection added into gasoline (what were discussing here) will be lower than say for race gas. Imagine continuing to increase the amount of meth injection to the theoretical point where 100% of your fuel at WOT is methanol, and none is gasoline (basically just running straight methanol as a fuel). At this point, your wideband would have to be reading something like 5.0:1 GASOLINE afr to run without knock at WOT. Why? Stoich for methanol, using a wideband designed to display GASOLINE AFRs (which all ours are) is 6.4:1 or so. To get to an equivalent 11.0:1 GASOLINE tune but on straight methanol, you'd have to be somewhere in the 5:1's or something.

WITH THAT SAID, you can see why you'll need to run a lower GASOLINE AFR than you'd expect when running lots of meth injection. The target GASOLINE AFR for tuning a meth injection setup (meth/gasoline mix) will be somewhere in between the target GASOLINE AFR for straight methanol, and straight gasoline. The actual value will depend all on your mix percentages. Not too hard to calculate actually, but personally I prefer to tune for no knock. Wideband just lets me know I'm somewhere in the vicinity, and it helps me keep watch of AFRs to make sure they don't stray from the optimal AFR, not to mention making the AFR consistent across the RPM range.

One disadvantage of a meth injection setup that is based on BOOST and not airflow (or gasoline injector duty) is that even though your boost may be consistent across the RPM range (meaning your meth injection flow will be consistent), airflow and injector duty (and therefore gasoline injected) will increase with RPM (to a point). This means that as your RPMs climb, the percentage of methanol-to-gasoline injected will decrease. This effectively means that octane will decrease as RPMs increase.This is far from ideal but it seems to work ok anyway. Meth injection doesnt have to be super precise.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

turboglenn: in my experience, nothing beats straight methanol injection. This seems to be the concensus for people trying to run any type of serious boost on pump gas. I have a feeling that the reason people say that when they added back in some water, it actually helped more than the methanol, is because they weren't injecting enough. Percentage methanol-to-gasoline needs to be higher than water-to-gasoline. Start with around 15% of total gasoline injected for water injection, about 25%++ total gasoline injected for meth injection.

Running any mix of water with meth just wasn't as effective, the more meth I ran the better the results, in every way.

Hey, i'm glad you chimed in on my thread. I was wondering what the limits might be on an M10 nozzle running 90% meth 10% water? I"m running locked timing of 16* and I'm getting 5-7* of retard through my J&S knock safeguard system and the sensitivity is turned way down.

My mods are in my profile, im' wondering if something in the motor is being loud causing some "phantom knock" or what ever.

Even at 15 psi I was getting 1-2* pulled while the meth was running.. it went completely away for a while 2 weeks ago when i just added a bottle of heet because i was low on blue juice, now it's back...weird...maybe the amount of meth is just enough to get things hotter and detonate more, and not enough to keep it cool and slow the burn rate the way it should..or the same thing from not enough water in the mix... I can't put my finger on it, i'm still trying to dial in the meth tune. I've got it coming on at just over 10psi.

Any advice on running a mix or pure meth? and what i cna do with an M10, M7 and an M5... I have enough connectors and tubing to run 2 nozzles right now, and chance said i can use only one check valve with 2 nozzles so i cna put it in tomorrow if needed. I just don't want to keeop adding more if there's another issue with my mix, where i'm injecting bla bla bla...

any help would be great
Glenn

It's hard to say what you need to do to fix the knock issue... how close is your M10 nozzle to the throttle body? My M15 is about 2 ft away from the throttle plate and the M7 is about 1 ft away. I'm running this much meth injection due partically to the amount of airflow i'm getting (56lb/min is good for about 500 whp or so, maybe more) and due to my undersized intercooler. Have you tried richening out the tune? Try shooting for a 10.7 or so AFR at WOT across the board and see what happens. Methanol, while very high octane, can preignite if it's running too lean. My NGK wideband needs to read below 11.0:1 to prevent knock. If its too lean, some days it will knock and some it wont. It's inconsistent. I'll then richen it out a couple tenths of an AFR and the knock will stay away. Check your nozzle to see if it's clogged too. Very common.. not to mention a bad tank of gas will really give you a headache when tuning.

Sorry if this was confusing, I'm doing a bunch of things at once now but I tried to answer as best I could. Please feel free to ask more questions or anything like that.

 

[Killa_dsm]

After playing around with some mixtures I found that the best results came from running straight methanol as well. I am no were close to flowing the airflow numbers as eclipsegsx1736 but I run a m12 nozzles and see about 43lbs/min on my 50trim at 25psi. I first decided to run less water in my mix since I felt that I had a efficient enough fmic, but needed help with the piss water 91 octane we have here in Cali. I also plan to get a m14 nozzle to replace my m12 to see how much farther I can take my tune.

You can take a look at my other thread I posted with my logs in it. And you can tell how much better my car performed with straight meth.

 

[turboglenn]

Running any mix of water with meth just wasn't as effective, the more meth I ran the better the results, in every way.


It's hard to say what you need to do to fix the knock issue... how close is your M10 nozzle to the throttle body? My M15 is about 2 ft away from the throttle plate and the M7 is about 1 ft away. I'm running this much meth injection due partically to the amount of airflow i'm getting (56lb/min is good for about 500 whp or so, maybe more) and due to my undersized intercooler. Have you tried richening out the tune? Try shooting for a 10.7 or so AFR at WOT across the board and see what happens. Methanol, while very high octane, can preignite if it's running too lean. My NGK wideband needs to read below 11.0:1 to prevent knock. If its too lean, some days it will knock and some it wont. It's inconsistent. I'll then richen it out a couple tenths of an AFR and the knock will stay away. Check your nozzle to see if it's clogged too. Very common.. not to mention a bad tank of gas will really give you a headache when tuning.

Sorry if this was confusing, I'm doing a bunch of things at once now but I tried to answer as best I could. Please feel free to ask more questions or anything like that.

See, when i started out, it was teh same for me, i dumped an extra 2 bottles of heet into a 2qt alky tank that only had a 1/4 tank at best and all knock dissapeareed immediately @ 20psi. Then my tranny blew.. New tranny in and i swapped to teh M10 from the M7 and now i got noises or something that's causing me knock again. Now the meth i've been running since then is about 90/10 meth to water, i was at probably 75 or 80% meth when it was perfect. I'm waiting on the tank to get a little low and i'm going to dump some more water back in the mix.

I don't have any problems with intake temps...usually 20* above ambient on after 1 or 2 hard pulls in the heat of summer. I know dsm-onster had more luck with straight water, but due to how much it freezes around here, straight water is not an option.

I'm lost here!

EDIT: my nozzle is in the bend of my TB elbow.

 

[SpeedAddict62]

Yes I know widebands read lambda. What I'm saying is the target AFR for tuning on large amounts of meth injection added into gasoline (what were discussing here) will be lower than say for race gas. Imagine continuing to increase the amount of meth injection to the theoretical point where 100% of your fuel at WOT is methanol, and none is gasoline (basically just running straight methanol as a fuel). At this point, your wideband would have to be reading something like 5.0:1 GASOLINE afr to run without knock at WOT. Why? Stoich for methanol, using a wideband designed to display GASOLINE AFRs (which all ours are) is 6.4:1 or so. To get to an equivalent 11.0:1 GASOLINE tune but on straight methanol, you'd have to be somewhere in the 5:1's or something.

WITH THAT SAID, you can see why you'll need to run a lower GASOLINE AFR than you'd expect when running lots of meth injection. The target GASOLINE AFR for tuning a meth injection setup (meth/gasoline mix) will be somewhere in between the target GASOLINE AFR for straight methanol, and straight gasoline. The actual value will depend all on your mix percentages. Not too hard to calculate actually, but personally I prefer to tune for no knock. Wideband just lets me know I'm somewhere in the vicinity, and it helps me keep watch of AFRs to make sure they don't stray from the optimal AFR, not to mention making the AFR consistent across the RPM range.

I'm going to still disagree with you there. Yes, stoich for methanol is around 6.4:1. Thats ACTUAL AFR, not gasoline calibrated. Here is an example. Say the lambda sensor measures .9 lambda while running straight methanol. This would be an actual AFR of (.9)(6.4) = 5.76:1. If the sensor was calibrated to gasoline, the sensor would show a GASOLINE AFR of (.9)(14.7) = 13.23. Lambda = AFR(actual)/AFR(stoich). So no matter what fuel you run (methanol, ethanol, E85, etc.) stoich will always be displayed as 14.7 on a gasoline calibrated wideband 02 sensor.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Your wideband has no idea what type of fuel you are using. If you are running 14.7:1, no matter if its on methanol or gasoline or whatever, the wideband will read 14.7:1 and it will show 1.00 lambda. We're only talking about widebands calibrated to read a gasoline scale here. The problem is that on methanol injection, if your wideband is reading 11.0:1, that isn't your actual AFR. Your actual AFR is leaner than that (by how much depends on the % meth injection compared to fuel). Read the thread below. There's a lot about this on the DSMlink forums and more on how to calculate your true AFR based on what the wideband tells you.

I had a PM chat with dsm-onster a while ago and he confirmed to me that people often run their meth-injected cars too lean (and sometimes blow an engine) because they tune for too lean of an AFR because they don't take into account the stoich of methanol being 6.4:1.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/237238-methanol-f-ratios.html

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

See, when i started out, it was teh same for me, i dumped an extra 2 bottles of heet into a 2qt alky tank that only had a 1/4 tank at best and all knock dissapeareed immediately @ 20psi. Then my tranny blew.. New tranny in and i swapped to teh M10 from the M7 and now i got noises or something that's causing me knock again. Now the meth i've been running since then is about 90/10 meth to water, i was at probably 75 or 80% meth when it was perfect. I'm waiting on the tank to get a little low and i'm going to dump some more water back in the mix.

I don't have any problems with intake temps...usually 20* above ambient on after 1 or 2 hard pulls in the heat of summer. I know dsm-onster had more luck with straight water, but due to how much it freezes around here, straight water is not an option.

I'm lost here!

EDIT: my nozzle is in the bend of my TB elbow.

I'd still try checking your nozzle to see if something got clogged in there. My checkvalve went out on me too and greatly hindered meth flow. The pump can be clogged too. Best bet is to have a good filter on the unpressurized side of the meth pump to prevent this, and check it often.

Also, try richening it out some. See what happens. Like I stated above, trying to run a leaner AFR would work some days and not others. Slightly on the rich side proved to be very consistent with never any knock. Tune like you would on pump gas. As much boost as possible, then as much timing as possible, only then worry about AFR. As for AFR, run it rich enough so it doesn't knock and you're set. Wideband AFR just lets you know you're somewhere in the ballpark. You won't gain much HP at all from leaning it out (to a point, can't completely flood the engine with fuel/meth and expect it to work.) I've ran my meth injection setup in the high 9:1's once before and it wasn't much slower. Could tell a difference and hear it, but considering how rich it was it wasn't bad at all.

 

[420a-t]

I'm going to still disagree with you there. Yes, stoich for methanol is around 6.4:1. Thats ACTUAL AFR, not gasoline calibrated. Here is an example. Say the lambda sensor measures .9 lambda while running straight methanol. This would be an actual AFR of (.9)(6.4) = 5.76:1. If the sensor was calibrated to gasoline, the sensor would show a GASOLINE AFR of (.9)(14.7) = 13.23. Lambda = AFR(actual)/AFR(stoich). So no matter what fuel you run (methanol, ethanol, E85, etc.) stoich will always be displayed as 14.7 on a gasoline calibrated wideband 02 sensor.

That makes sense. I was Running about a 13.6-13.7 afr with race gas and 100% meth injection (m7) at the track one time and was making a lot more power than if I kept the afr's lower than that (I have also done it on pump too). So the way you figured stoich makes sense. With meth injeciton, I've always been told to go for around a 12.0-1 afr (or whenever the knock starts) But I've always had mine around a 11.1/1 afr because my m7 nozzel was too small (glad I know that for this year!)

I've done mixes from 80/20 water/meth, 50/50, 80/20 meth/water and all meth, the more meth the better. If you have an efficent intercooker, I'd go with straight meth or 80/20. The only reason why I used to run 80/20 meth/water over 100% meth was that the windshield washer fluid I used had a blue tint in it so I could see how empty or full my bottle was.

turboglenn, as I PM'ed you, go straight meth, and don't look back.

 

[turboglenn]

420a-t, i didn't get a PM from you... can you re-send it?

 

[SpeedAddict62]

Your wideband has no idea what type of fuel you are using.

Right, I completely agree.

If you are running 14.7:1, no matter if its on methanol or gasoline or whatever, the wideband will read 14.7:1 and it will show 1.00 lambda.

Wrong. If running an actual 14.7 AFR on gasoline, the sensor would read 1.00 lambda, therefore display 14.7. If running an actual AFR of 14.7 on methanol, the sensor would read 2.30 lambda, and display 33.81 AFR .

We're only talking about widebands calibrated to read a gasoline scale here. The problem is that on methanol injection, if your wideband is reading 11.0:1, that isn't your actual AFR.

Right, completely agree again.

Your actual AFR is leaner than that (by how much depends on the % meth injection compared to fuel). Read the thread below. There's a lot about this on the DSMlink forums and more on how to calculate your true AFR based on what the wideband tells you.

Wrong. It wouldn't be leaner, it would be richer. Although I don't have access to the DSMlink forums, I read through that thread and after looking over the equations, I found an error. Copied from Scottsee's post in that thread:

Real AFR: (11.2/14.36) x 14.7 = 11.47 REAL AFR

He is trying to convert to lambda, and then multiple by the stoich AFR to get actual AFR. But the AFR values should be switched. If the wideband reads 11.2:1 (calibrated to a stoich gasoline AFR of 14.7:1) then lambda would be (11.2/14.7). To get actual AFR from lambda, multiple by the stoich AFR. In this case, the stoich AFR is 14.36. So:

Real AFR: (11.2/14.7) x 14.36 = 10.94 REAL AFR.

This makes sense conceptually, since we expect real AFR of a meth/gas mix to be richer than the real AFR of a gas only mix for the same value lambda.

So in the end, it makes more sense to tune to lambda. If you can only display gas AFR, then tune to a good gas AFR, regardless of how much meth injection you run. Now whether that may be 10:1 or 12:1 for your car, no one knows. That must be figured out with tuning, every car will be different.

 

[turboglenn]

Can we say Way Off Topic??????

Still looking for hard data or settings proven by our members...wether it's pure water or pure meth, i want to hear the pros and cons of both and how far you've pushed your car on either liquid using it pure instead of mixed

 

[spyderturbo007]

Can we say Way Off Topic??????

turboglenn is right, maybe we should move this discussion over to this thread, which is all about AFR's when running MeOH.

 

[soldave]

Well I've got the meth kit fitted up except for a 3-bar MAP sensor that I'm waiting on. Am going to start with a 50/50 mix although am very interested to hear about people running 100% meth. I know that's what one of the big posters over at Devils Own seems to say is best. My tuner's running a 50/50 mix but I forget his reasoning... will try to ask him later.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Well I've got the meth kit fitted up except for a 3-bar MAP sensor that I'm waiting on. Am going to start with a 50/50 mix although am very interested to hear about people running 100% meth. I know that's what one of the big posters over at Devils Own seems to say is best. My tuner's running a 50/50 mix but I forget his reasoning... will try to ask him later.

I only use 100% meth because no other mix works as well for me, BUT there are legitimate reasons to use a 50/50 mix.

First is that the mix isn't flammable, like 100% meth is (very much so). 100% meth could POTENTIALLY be a fire hazard (but not if you have any idea what you're doing). Keep the meth away from sparks (shouldn't be any anyway) and from exhaust heat (duh) and you'll be fine. The chances of something like that happening are extremely small, but nonetheless don't come running to me if your car explodes.

Second, water is ABLE to pull away more heat from a system than methanol is, but due to several factors, in a water/meth injection setup in an engine, the water often doesn't have enough time to be used completely, which is why meth ends up being better. Meth evaporates and works faster because it is split up into MUCH finer droplets when injected into the airstream compared to water, which is what's important. Spill meth on your hand, compared to water, and you'll see what I mean. The super cooled feeling is the rapid evaporation of methanol due to the smaller droplet size and higher surface area. What people usually won't notice, however, is if you spill water on your hand, while it wont feel as cold as fast, in the end it will cool your hand down more than methanol.

Remember, injecting WATER pulls heat out of the intake air and combustion chamber (more thoroughly but slower than meth), which effectively increases octane. METH, on the other hand, is actually a fuel and will be burned as a fuel. Methanol itself has a very high octane, but along with its high octane property and its ability to pull away heat like water, it ends up working very well.

Like stated earlier, try running straight meth over a 50/50 mix, but when you switch to straight meth, you must run a larger nozzle to see the increased effect.

 

[Joesmoke]

Hey Glenn

I read Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech - TurboBuick.Com from start to finish when I first started. You wouldnt need all that info, but in the earlier posts especially, there was some good debates about mixes.

They lean towards straight meth injection.

I run straight meth (VP racing,progressive controlller, M15 nozzle 6 to 8 inches from TB) I found it quite different on the stock sidemount and when I was pushing the 14b really hard (super hot intake charge) It was really doing a good job on the cooling side.

As I upgraded to a 3" core front mount, and a 20g, I found I was now tuning for less cooling properties, and more as a combustible fluid. I do not believe as much was evaporated in the charge, and more was hitting the cylinders as straight meth.

Now, the problem Im having is getting the AF ratio in line. With my controller on 1/2 (think 50 percent max capacity), and running 18 lbs, Im having to pull out 20 percent fuel on the afc to get an AF of 10.5 on a long 3rd gear pull. More boost is on the way and that should clear that problem up.

As far previous logged data, I was running mid 20's timing and max boost at about 21 lbs (no AF ratio available at the time) That was running stock injectors, 14b and stock sidemount. I had bumped base timing to 12 degrees. No KS, and never any damage.

I have no timing data with the 20g and FMIC, but with no knock sensor, and if other parameters are in line, timing will just max out in the ecu, so thats usually pretty good.

I was always under the impression to tune to similar Af ratios as you would running based on gas (based on similar ideas as above), but was aware of the other side of that discussion (tune richer). Ill have to revisit that information.

HTH
Jason

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Hey Glenn

I read Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech - TurboBuick.Com from start to finish when I first started. You wouldnt need all that info, but in the earlier posts especially, there was some good debates about mixes.

They lean towards straight meth injection.

I run straight meth (VP racing,progressive controlller, M15 nozzle 6 to 8 inches from TB) I found it quite different on the stock sidemount and when I was pushing the 14b really hard (super hot intake charge) It was really doing a good job on the cooling side.

As I upgraded to a 3" core front mount, and a 20g, I found I was now tuning for less cooling properties, and more as a combustible fluid. I do not believe as much was evaporated in the charge, and more was hitting the cylinders as straight meth.

Now, the problem Im having is getting the AF ratio in line. With my controller on 1/2 (think 50 percent max capacity), and running 18 lbs, Im having to pull out 20 percent fuel on the afc to get an AF of 10.5 on a long 3rd gear pull. More boost is on the way and that should clear that problem up.

As far previous logged data, I was running mid 20's timing and max boost at about 21 lbs (no AF ratio available at the time) That was running stock injectors, 14b and stock sidemount. I had bumped base timing to 12 degrees. No KS, and never any damage.

I have no timing data with the 20g and FMIC, but with no knock sensor, and if other parameters are in line, timing will just max out in the ecu, so thats usually pretty good.

I was always under the impression to tune to similar Af ratios as you would running based on gas (based on similar ideas as above), but was aware of the other side of that discussion (tune richer). Ill have to revisit that information.

HTH
Jason

SAFC?? Meth injection?? Running that much timing with no knock sensor?? Scary stuff.. You're lucky the engine is still in once piece I'd say. Sounds like you need DSMlink and a knock sensor STAT.

Running high timing on any setup is scary, because if there is any kind of problem or detonation, the timing is so far advanced that the KS and the ECU might not react fast enough or pull the timing back far enough to prevent damage. Especially on a setup with meth injection where you're relying on the meth as part of your fuel. If the meth injection partially or completely fails, the KS will help prevent engine damage, although it could still happen even with a functioning KS due to the sudden drop in fuel and octane. Also, if you have even a partial clog in a nozzle, you won't really know about it until it's too late or it leans out significantly, hopefully registering on your wideband.

 

[Joesmoke]

SAFC?? Meth injection?? Running that much timing with no knock sensor?? Scary stuff.. You're lucky the engine is still in once piece I'd say. Sounds like you need DSMlink and a knock sensor STAT.

Running high timing on any setup is scary, because if there is any kind of problem or detonation, the timing is so far advanced that the KS and the ECU might not react fast enough or pull the timing back far enough to prevent damage. Especially on a setup with meth injection where you're relying on the meth as part of your fuel. If the meth injection partially or completely fails, the KS will help prevent engine damage, although it could still happen even with a functioning KS due to the sudden drop in fuel and octane. Also, if you have even a partial clog in a nozzle, you won't really know about it until it's too late or it leans out significantly, hopefully registering on your wideband.

Yeah, Im fully aware of the dangers. I have not had a KS for going on 3 years (or about 25,000km's). No problems, and lots of test and tunes. I had a problem with PK then and decided that either I would run the car based on common sense, and yes, some luck, or it would need to self destruct, and base a rebuild and future tune on what was learned.

Through logging, I just never found the stock ecu would give me enough timing, to cause damage (based on old setup and meth injection) The 20g is a new beast though..Ill be watching it.

I dont like the piggyback method (safc),its a borderline calibration unit, its just whats available right now, and Ive learned to work with it.

 

[turboglenn]

Good info joesmoke and eclipse1736! I have run without an KS for almost 9 years and 90K miles and only blew a head gasket once. Just useing common sense and looking at plugs and other aspects of how the engine was running was enough for me to go off of. I'm not running WI anymore (only because i'm on E85 now) But even then when i only had 720 injectors i was running teh meth system as an extra injector and it was workign great.

I'm about to dial in another pump gas tune on the new 1000's and i'll be using straight meth on top of it so that i will burn less of that middle east gold we get at the pumps. And the only reason i'm doing that is for cold weather where my car hates to start (even on pump gas) and for long road trips.

I just got back from teh east coast and there was only one station i stiopped at during the whole 1200 mile trip that had E85 for sale That really sucks, i was hoping to see it all along the interstate, but no such luck. I was seeing 92 ocvtane as high as 4.35 in some places on the way there. and then once the weekenbd was over on my way back (today) the same places were back down to 3.95 or so for 91 octane..tanlk about a bunch of god damn con artists. People need to start shooting the people who price gasoline

 

[jshuman]

My progressive kit uses an m15 nozzle and straight denatured alcohol. On my old logs with link, I remember seeing 25psi with ~16* with 0 knock. That was when I first bought the car. Unfortunately, I was unable to view the chart to see the pump % at that boost level because my battery died and the chart was cleared. I am retuning now, and I hope to find out the limits of straight alcohol for my setup within the week. I will post up my results.

Thanks for starting another great injection thread turboglenn!!