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Straight cut synchronized gear box!

Posted by keltalon, Jun 22, 2018

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  1. Lou98GSX

    Lou98GSX Proven Member

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    Keltalon I have been waiting to see you back in action . can't wait to here more.
     
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  2. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    @keltalon what ever happened to the indistructable WPC treated and cryo'd Evo 1 GSR box you had?
     

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  3. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    #shotsfired
     

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  4. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    Any of you losers dyno over 800hp? Didn't think so....;)
     

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  5. DSMReviver

    DSMReviver Proven Member

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    My thoughts on this...

    When a stock transmission gear fail the teeth is shredded. The same thing is happening on the Quafie housing. I would bet that it is due to the inferior design of the helical teeth and not the housing itself. If this is the housing or base material issue, we would of seen fracture/separation on the entire unit. The gears will break apart and the quaife housing would of split into pieces. The tooth would of uproot completely or distorted from the housing where the suspected thin areas are. But we don't see that. The teeth are shreedded and the housing left intact.

    Most aftermarket manufacturers increase the width of the helical gears to gain strength or gone to straight cut design completely.

    This is why I think switching to the straight cut gear design and on stronger case material will solve or improve the design to handle more power and abuse.
     
    DSMReviver

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  6. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    Not talking sh**, I just legitimately want to know if that box held up, and if not, what broke.
     

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  7. Canadian_CD9A

    Canadian_CD9A Proven Member

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    The hub and slider is a very real concern, supplies are long gone for Evo stuff, and I've seen people fight over used Evo III units. I lucked out and found a brand new Evo/HD hub & slider in France, I'm hoping it never fails, or I may be SOL.
    I don't think I've seen the hub and slider fail on Matthias' gears, or the previous PAR iteration. But since PAR is willing to re-engineer the kit, I doubt they would let an obsolete hub & slider sideline their product. They would come up with a solution.

    Kel, I'm curious what happened to your last transmission, too. I had really high hopes for that thing. Is it still alive?
     
  8. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Is the hub and slider that fragile? I've never broken one or even seen one broken. Just hear horror storries. I mean I guess if your powershifting into 3rd or something. But set a decent NLTS RPM and don't use a clutch that holds 1000ft*lbs, and it's probably not an issue.
     

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  9. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Also for the record, day 4 of waiting for a response to my price inquiry to TRE. It's really like 6 months since the first time I asked him, but I re asked friday.
     

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  10. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

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    Uhh can I get a link to a dog box lasting 80K miles, thanks!
     
  11. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    You can get that if you know how to drive it, and don't miss 2nd gear ever.

    Expect regular service items to be 2nd gear and 1/2 slider on 99% of those that are raced or driven hard.
     

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  12. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    My liberty stuff seemed like it would have lasted 10k or more driving it in my small town stop and go/ having fun/ highway miles. Lot different if you just get on the highway and go, but they'd probably last a very very long time like that.
     

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  13. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

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    Can you explain that further, you say it will last 80K but you need to service it regularly, so which is it?

    If it needs taken apart constantly and have the gears resurfaced regularly than the tranny doesn't last 80k miles. How long does the trans last before it has to be removed for XYZ.....that is the answer I am looking for.

    And from my understanding shifting a dox bog wether at WOT or just normal shifting creates the same wear.
     
  14. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    It will last as long as you take care of it. It is all up to the end user, along with your ability to actually drive, your power levels and your usage of the clutch.
     

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  15. iugrad92turbo

    iugrad92turbo Supporting Member

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    Just left tre and spoke to jon some interesting stuff regarding on this gear set up.
     

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  16. Canadian_CD9A

    Canadian_CD9A Proven Member

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    Sharing is caring...
     
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  17. iugrad92turbo

    iugrad92turbo Supporting Member

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    I was visiting him we go back, just small talk about the company and the work doing with par, if I had more to share I would but I went to talk about parts for my trans and a friend. Nothing informative about the set up. I'm just following the thread, tre is about 10 minutes from me so it was nice to just see him hes quite busy.
     

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  18. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

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    OK I'll give you two scenarios: 16g build mostly street driven with a few launches and the driver knows how to shift.

    42r build with mostly street miles with a few launches and the driver knows how to shift.

    SO how many miles does this thing last before needing serviced?
     
  19. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    It will last as long as your bearings last then. Hub and sliders and bearings are wearable components over time. I know several people that were making very decent power, like 800+AWHP and had 8 years on their PPG dogboxes before needing to service them, with countless track passes.

    Having a driver that knows how to shift as well as having a ignition cut, or rev retard, or using the clutch to take the load off of the transmission will make it last a very long time.

    If you have a 16g car, you should be on a stock transmission if it's a street driven car. There is no need for an aftermarket gear set on a 16g unless you are trying to set records, or you are racing the car. A stock refreshed transmission can handle 400 WHP all day long with the big failure modes going to be a stock center diff (upper pinion gear friction welding the pinion washer to the cover, or the cross shaft breaking on a stock 2 spider diff), or the 3/4 hub and slider from abuse / overheating. Anything past that is from normal wear and tear, or excessive abuse (like broken shift forks or shift rail ends).

    If you have a car making 600+AWHP and you are actually racing it and treating it not like a regular car, then you should be on a straight cut dogbox. Durability, and service life vs. the cost of the components is in your favor then. When you are breaking more than 1 transmission a season (I was breaking 4 or 5 built transmissions per season of street / track / dyno time for several years which typically cost around $3000-4000 per failure so it adds up), you are at the point of looking at budgeting for a straight cut dogbox simply for service life.

    With the cost of OEM Mitsubishi parts being significantly higher than they were even 8 years ago; around a 150-200% increase in that period and they typically go up 5-10% every couple months; as well as a large portion of the transmission components being no longer available / discontinued worldwide, we have to bite the bullet and look at Liberty, PPG or PAR gearsets as a solution for component replacement / upgrading.

    When you are looking at the cost of a basic comprehensive OEM rebuild starting out around $2000 or so for stock replacement parts, and working up to around $3500, BEFORE options like an aftermarket front diff or output shaft or bearing plate or surface treatments, etc. With options you can easily get into the $6000+ range on a gearbox with a stock gearset. With face plating as an option on the stock gearset to get it to shift faster, it might be cheap to do it to a free used gearset and about $1000 later you have some modified stock used parts done up to shift faster. When you are doing it to a brand new gearset as well as surface treatments, and diff upgrades, etc. It starts around $4000 and goes up from there.

    With a PPG or PAR gearset, you are starting around the $4500-6000 range for a 9310 hardened steel straight cut gearset either with dog engagement or synchronized gears for a 1/2/3/4 gearset. They are considerably more durable for the gear teeth and shafts. The engagement dogs on the gears CAN get worn over time from regular usage, or they can get hurt from a hard high-rpm mis-shift. If you are at the track and completely miss 2nd gear with a hard mis-shift you will easily hurt the gear in a couple screw-ups. Nature of the beast. At the same time, you can race the car 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years of good times before needing a refresh. Just like a clutch, it will last as long as the end user takes care of it. As for associated costs, you still have to modify the transmission case to accept the new gearset, and that also refers to modification to shift forks, shift rails, 5th gear cover, oil guides, input snout (TOB sleeve), shift selector modifcation, etc. And if you are starting out with a 1989-1991.5 transmission there is even more conversion you need to do because of the early style shift lever / selector components being very weak. You can easily have another $1000-2000 in parts for assembly between bearings, differential modification (if you choose to do a 4-spider center diff you will need to machine components as well as get a proper cross-shaft, additional pinion gearset, shims, torrington bearing and thrust washers, machine the diff cover, machine the diff housing, etc.). Then, you have upgrade options like the 300m output shaft (which really is a must with a spooled center diff race car; you will kill output shafts over time), a billet aluminum bearing plate (the stock one likes to deflect and say bye bye to your gearset), an upgraded front differential (spool front, phantom grip / rip grip mod, Quaife LSD or KAAZ LSD or Ralliart LSD differentials) Then you have labor cost. Are you doing it yourself or are you having a professional do it? That isn't free. So you are realistically looking at ~$6000 for bare bones, ~$7500 for a proper build, and around $10,000 fully optioned out.

    As for myself, well, I broke other shops built transmissions for several years before saying screw it, and building them myself to learn. I broke around 23 or 24 in less than 7 years with power levels anywhere from 400AWHP-800AWHP, and I have gone through like 5 in the last 10 years with power levels anywhere from 700AWHP-1000AWHP. I also have taken it a bit easier on the car and I race less.

    I have 3 or 4 years on my face plated dogbox in my car, and it is no slouch for power and sees almost all street time when I drive it. I have had zero issues with mine, and I typically am driving around the car at the 740-750 AWHP range on the street on waste gate spring. My transmission is an Evo 1 1st/2nd , DSM ratio 3rd/4th, Evo 3 5th gearset, 4-spider center differential, Adelia Magic Clutch Type Coupler (replaces viscous coupler), KAAZ Super-Q clutch type LSD front differential, Boostin 300m output shaft, and the entire gearset is deburred / detailed, shot peened and REM treated with steel Evo 3 shift forks and forged steel Evo 3 shift rails.

    Though it has performed well at this power level for the duration it has seen of street time, I am still changing over to a PPG dogbox 1/2/3/4 gearset with Evo 3 5th gearset, spool center diff, Boostin 300m output shaft, Kaaz Super-Q LSD front diff, and Boostin billet bearing plate. This will be the upcoming race trans I use for the remaining life of the car.

    I could have bought easily 8 or 9 PPG dogboxes if I had started out going directly to one back in 2003-2004 or so when I started breaking gearboxes. Heck, PPG gearsets were dirt cheap way back when. Their prices have gone up a bit in the last couple years, but so has everything else gone up in price; just part of life.

    Either way, a dogbox isn't for everyone, but it sure darn well beats breaking 3 race transmissions in a season.
     

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  20. DSMReviver

    DSMReviver Proven Member

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    Here is PPG phone number. Contact them your self and question their product. Ask them why they make these claims and report back to us.

    P: +61 8 8285 2933
     
    DSMReviver

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  21. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    Damn, great post Tim.
     

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  22. keltalon

    keltalon Supporting VIP

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    Transmission arrive and ready to go in. T.R.E special.
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 4K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM

    8K  14  25

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.1 @ 137.3 · 2G DSM
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  23. keltalon

    keltalon Supporting VIP

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    I still have it.
     

    Street Build 4K  0

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    manual · 2G DSM

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.1 @ 137.3 · 2G DSM
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  24. keltalon

    keltalon Supporting VIP

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    Thanks Lou. I am working on 3 projects at one time. The Twin turbo G35 has been eating my pockets almost finished with the engine. I haven't given much attention to eclipse since last sept when someone tried to steal the car a the ga 1/2 mile event but now I have turned my attention back to the car. Experimenting with these custom gears and better ratios.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018

    Street Build 4K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM

    8K  14  25

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.1 @ 137.3 · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  25. keltalon

    keltalon Supporting VIP

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    [/QUOTE]
    @keltalon which 3/4 hub/slider are you running? I see that the EvoIII hub/slider is obsolete…it’s my understanding that it is the one to have as it is forged. Does TRE have any left overs? The OEM DSM ones are cast and it’s my understanding that machining them down to accept dbbl synchros diminishes strength further. This would imply the still available unmodified/single synchro DSM small hub slider is superior in strength barring getting a hold of some new EvoIII ones or good used ones. I suppose this is just another common weak link but I raise this because it would suck to explode the 3/4 H&S and subsequently trash the PAR gearset and I am curious as to what TRE recommended and set you up with and what torque limit? I hope that the revised PAR gears are indeed stronger than the previous version too and you get some considerable miles/passes out of this setup. Subscribed.[/QUOTE]





    I know Jon had a few of these left but to be honest I can't say but I'll find out.
     

    Street Build 4K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM

    8K  14  25

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.1 @ 137.3 · 2G DSM
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