Six puck unsprung- better disengagement, easier on synchros?

[Caithness]

I'm looking for the lightest clutch disc possible that will be easiest on the synchros and shift the best at high rpm. I'm also looking for a clutch disc that is very easy to disengage, and when it disengages you know it's fully disengaged and not possibly slighly engaged and dragging on the synchros. Other than a 4-puck, would an unsprung ACT 6 puck fit the bill here? I know a 4 puck is too harsh for me because my friend has one. I'm thinking a 6 puck would be a better middle ground.

 

[TSIfreek]

The best clutch on the trany is the twin disk clutches but they way expensive but really save the trany. Other than that your on the right track with the 6 puck but keep in mind the friction material used on the clutch makes it heavy and more tacky like the fermatic disks are heavy since they are are steel material . Ceramic may be lighter but its still grabs almost to well were the clutch wont fully disengage during those fast shifts.
I would look into a sprung disk over a non sprung for a street car of any kind. A non sprung disk is real violant on the drivetrain and driving that every day gets old real quick.
If money is no object the twin disk is the way to go but again its more of a drag clutch with its engaugement and noisy like you have a bell under your hood costanly going off gets real anoying so I would also say no unless your at 600 hp I would look at something else.
Call around talk to the clutch manufacures to give you more Ideas and the best fit for you.
Its not easy to choose a clutch for a street car there is so much give and take between street ability and hold up to track use as well.
Do a search as well to see what other guys are running an PM them to get there input.
Just some ideas should get you started

 

[timloomis]

I have a 6 puck sprung, and it grabs NOW. You can't really slip it, it just wants to take off. It takes a while to get used to it though, but its engaged or disengaged, never in-between.

 

[Caithness]

A twin disc is definitely out of the question because of budget. I'm never going bigger than this Evo 16g anyway, so the power handling and super-high-rpm shift capability of the twin disc will never be used.

The real need here is to increase the torque capacity of the clutch setup while using my current 2200 lb South Bend pressure plate. I've currently got their ceramic/kevlar full-face disc in there and it has recently slipped on me at an autocross event and at the drag strip when I tried to no-lift shift. And this is on less than 20 psi, when I'll soon be running 26 psi and more timing all the time. The kevlar material is the weak link in torque-holding and has to be upgraded to something grippier.

I'd just also like to gain benefits in shifting and disengagement at the same time. My car has never disengaged a clutch properly- I'm replacing the release fork and pivot with this clutch change, which is literally the last thing I haven't done out of every suggestion ever posted on this board to improve disengagement, at least that I could find in many hours of searching. I finally got it to fully disengage 1/2" off the floor and that was the best I could do.

My friend's 91 GSX has a 4 puck unsprung with a 2500 lb pressure plate and it's unbearable. I can't even drive the car fast on a roll because quick shifts slam the whole car violently. My friend's SR20 240sx has an unsprung 6 puck and drives almost as soft as my sprung street disc- go figure. I think I'm going to start with the ACT unsprung 6 and see if it's bearable, then if not try a sprung 6. The main thing I'm worried about with the ACT sprung 6 is that it might even be heavier than my current disc, and that it might have clearance issues with certain pressure plates (ref. all the recent ACT threads) so I might have to find a sprung 6 from a different manufacturer.

 

[project_tsi]

The new release fork and pivot ball should help, especially on an older trans. I'd also add in a 1.5mm washer to shim the pivot ball. Also, look into your clutch pedal arm for wear.

But for your goals with your current PP, I'd get a 6 puck sprung disk and be done with it. Don't get a new style ACT disk with the big springs, they will hit the PP fingers.

I would get this Clutch Net 6 puck sprung disk. I love the design much more than the ACT's. 6 small springs in a housing that is virtually impossible to pop out, and its held together by 6 rivets rather than act's 4.

http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=17803&cat=0&page=1

 

[twicks69]

I had the clutchnet disk for around 2300 miles in the car, and took out three trannies. On top of it all, the pads were totally disintegrating. It made more chatter than my twin disk.


Personally, I prefer a kevlar disk over a six puck any day. Better wear characteristics, much less abusive on the car, easily slippable, and is excellent for street/track use. South Bend Clutch makes an excellent kevlar disk that works with our flywheels and an ACT pressure plate with no problems.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Mitsubishi/Eclipse-Talon_95-99/South_Bend/Clutch/Clutch_Disks


I had mine in for more than 30K miles, well over 100 track passes, 100+ dynopulls, and alot of overall abuse. took it all apart, and the disk looked great (a little worn but no where near the rivets yet), the flywheel and the pressure plate had no bad hotspots on them, and the flywheel friction plate did not warp.

With the 6-puck clutchnet, the pressure plate was garbage after 2300 miles, and the flywheel friction surface was replaced twice (fidanza).

This clutch (kevlar disk) was used from 400whp - 630whp on my car over the years. I was very happy with it.

 

[underradar92]

I concur with Tim, I'm using the HPF with an ACT 2100 and a Fidanza f/wheel, and it is very driveable. I'm actually using this one, http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/pri...s/Clutch/Clutch_Kits/part/Bronze_-_Mitsubishi I don't know if that's the exact one Tim is recommending, however.

 

[twicks69]

No it is a different one.

The feramic 6-puck was one I was going to originally do, if the kevlar one burnt out fast. It never did, and I never installed the feramic 6-puck.

I still stand by using a Fidanza or ACT streetlite flywheel with a ACT2600 PP, and a good Kevlar or Feramic disk == your tranny will like you.

Be sure to also upgrade to a stainless steel clutch line, as this will help in decreasing the disengagement issues usually found with single disk clutches that are not adjusted properly.

 

[Caithness]

I already have the washer under the pivot. I may leave it there with the new pivot; don't want to put the release fork into the pressure plate. If it clears that I can't see the harm in leaving it. I've checked the pedal assembly for play and it's still tight. I also do have a stainless braided line, ACT Streetlite flywheel.

That sintered bronze disc looks nice until you look at the price. 324 dollars- ouch. I'd like to stay in the ~150 and less range for a new disc.

I was liking the sound of the Clutchnet until I saw Tim's experience with it. I searched and didn't find much except a few initial impressions from a few years back and they weren't all positive. What happened to your trannies?

I'm confused about the power holding of kevlar. I thought kevlar holds less torque than even your basic organic street disc material. Am I wrong? I don't know if switching to the South Bend Kevlar/Kevlar disc will work- currently I have their Kevlar/Ceramic disc and the Kevlar side looks a lot like those pics. If the Ceramic side is the weak point I could give it a shot. I have one of their Organic/Feramic clutch discs sitting on a shelf but the feramic full-face ring was too heavy and it didn't shift well.

What I really need to do is man up and switch to a 2900 and be done with it. The problem is I drive barefoot (Florida, sandals all year long...) and the 2600 I had would put a bruise on the bottom of my foot in stop-go traffic. Maybe I'll just try a straight kevlar disc and see what happens. I can always sell these things for half price if they don't work out, theoretically...

 

[twicks69]

First off, are you dealing with a NEW ACT 2600 Pressure Plate, or have you been reusing your same one with different disks?

don't want to put the release fork into the pressure plate. If it clears that I can't see the harm in leaving it.

You can always clearance the clutch fork and grind down the surface to give extra clearance. But still...if you don't see any wear or damage on your current clutch fork, it would be a waste of time to do this.

That sintered bronze disc looks nice until you look at the price. 324 dollars- ouch. I'd like to stay in the ~150 and less range for a new disc.

The kevlar one that I reccomended in the post above is $160.

I was liking the sound of the Clutchnet until I saw Tim's experience with it. I searched and didn't find much except a few initial impressions from a few years back and they weren't all positive. What happened to your trannies?

Well, I broke the teeth off of 1st gear, 2nd gear, 3rd gear, shatterred shift forks and hub/sliders during this clutch. -- The clutch is a very harsh engagement, and can only be slipped so much before it overheats and warps the friction surface on your flywheel or causes the pads to breakdown or delaminate from the clutch disk.

I'm confused about the power holding of kevlar. I thought kevlar holds less torque than even your basic organic street disc material. Am I wrong? I don't know if switching to the South Bend Kevlar/Kevlar disc will work- currently I have their Kevlar/Ceramic disc and the Kevlar side looks a lot like those pics. If the Ceramic side is the weak point I could give it a shot. I have one of their Organic/Feramic clutch discs sitting on a shelf but the feramic full-face ring was too heavy and it didn't shift well.

Well, I have first hand experience with the kevlar disk holding well over 500+ torque for more than two years of abuse -- this is close to 10 times longer than an organic ACT street disk would last.

What I really need to do is man up and switch to a 2900 and be done with it. The problem is I drive barefoot (Florida, sandals all year long...) and the 2600 I had would put a bruise on the bottom of my foot in stop-go traffic. Maybe I'll just try a straight kevlar disc and see what happens. I can always sell these things for half price if they don't work out, theoretically...

I would reccomend NOT using a 2900 PP. First off, you are not making anywhere near the power that would need a 2900. Also, your issue is disengagement, not clutch slippage.

You are much better off spending your money on a quality twin disk clutch when you start making more than 500hp. Adam @ Devo Tuning sells a Quartermaster/Powertrain Technologies twin disk that is excellent -- that is what I am using now. Excellent DISengagement characteristics, excellent holding capacity. You would have to get used to noise, and practice with the clutch -- alot of people don't like them because they are alot less streetable than a 2600 single disk setup. I have gone from missing shifts and breaking shift forks and synchros, etc... to not missing a shift AT ALL and not breaking from clutch issues (I still break stuff due to the power that I am generating).

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I am currently looking for a new disk, I have the new Revised version of the act 2900 PP with the Revised Yellow spring Disk with about 5000 miles on both.. The fidanza flywheel surface and pp surfaces are great but since I am taking the clutch and flywheel out for crank balancing I figure I will change the disk... Do you think this Kevlar disk you recommend would be good for my setup? I've been trapping 128+mph for a while now on a 3300lb total weight including driver.. The new 2.4L motor is going in hense the reason for the Balancing, so the traps will be a lot higher... Would this Kevlar disk be a good addition with a fidanza and 2900 revised PP... P.S. the new 2900 has way less pedal effort than the 2600.. Its almost comparable to a 2100 And I've had 0 problems with my current setup and shep stg 4 trans setup.....

 

[twicks69]

I think that it would work just fine. Just be careful when racing with it at your HP levels -- if you are hot lapping (doing at least 4 or 5 back-to-back 1/4 mile passes) you will overheat it -- you will need to give cool down time between runs. If you don't, the clutch disk surface will expand and not disengage 100%, along with the potential for slippage. Don't worry though...if you do overheat it, it isn't ruined like an organic disk -- just let it cool and clutch a few times to re-bed the surface before doing another hard pass.

I only overheated this clutch twice -- both times were at race days where I was forced by the track to hot-lap (on 90 degree days in June). I did over 10 back-to-back passes running around 11.4's-11.0's and by the last two passes, the clutch was slipping and had disengagement problems at the launch -- the car was creeping forward, causing me to redlight and lose the race (DropFest 2004 & 2006). Both times, I was able to let the car cool down at the end of the day, and drive it home just fine -- with no slipping problems.

This disk is very nice though -- it slips like a street disk, has no chatter, doesn't stink when overheated, and can handle a pretty darn large amount of abuse before becoming overheated. Best of it...when you engage the clutch, it can be modulated to feel like a street disk, or "dropped" and engages like a 6-puck -- Excellent engagement characteristics.

With the 2900, you should have no problems. Just make sure that your clutch is properly adjusted, and that the flywheel friction surface and hardware is NEW (be sure to use loctite red on the flywheel friction surface hardware) Also, be sure to use NEW flywheel bolts (since you are using a different crank -- it is better to start with fresh bolts -- with loctite red torqued to 75lb/ft). Be sure you have a stainless steel clutch line on the car, and expect to carry around the tools needed to adjust your clutch pedal during breakin on the clutch. My clutch changed NIGHT AND DAY in the first 250 miles, and I ended up NOT having the tools with me to adjust it, causing me to trash the synchros in a past tranny. Use GOOD clutch fluid (Valvoline synthetic DOT 3/4 brake fluid), and be sure to flush and bleed the system properly.


If you are using this clutch in a road race car (where you are not launching AT ALL), then I would reccomend the feramic 6-puck. But, if you are doing any drag racing or launches on the car, OR street driving, go with the full kevlar sprung disk from South Bend Clutch (link in 6th post of thread).

 

[donk]

The best clutch on the trany is the twin disk clutches but they way expensive but really save the trany.

I am not trying to be an ass, but the twin disc isnt really saving your syncros.
Twin disc is easier on syncros at the actual shift but during normal driving, hamonics from the twin disk gets transfered into the trans and #### up your syncros.

On a racecar its great, but on a dd i wouldnt say that it is the way to go.

Sorry for bad spelling and vocabular, Iam from sweden...=)

 

[yokotabrat]

Tim, does the south bend kevlar disk require a break in period?

 

[twicks69]

Yes, it does require a break-in period.

The result if you don't break it in, is clutch slippage -- Luke from Beyond Redline, put one in his race car after I reccomended it, went to the dyno, with NO mileage on it, and proceeded to slip after a few passes (600-700whp range) -- took it out, it looked glazed, but not garbage.

Try to be good to it for at least 200 miles of moderate shifting, with NO launching. Let it bed itself before abusing it. You will know when it is broken in -- it will completely change its clutch engagement characteristics, along with pedal feel -- keep your tools in the car.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I think that it would work just fine. Just be careful when racing with it at your HP levels -- if you are hot lapping (doing at least 4 or 5 back-to-back 1/4 mile passes) you will overheat it -- you will need to give cool down time between runs. If you don't, the clutch disk surface will expand and not disengage 100%, along with the potential for slippage. Don't worry though...if you do overheat it, it isn't ruined like an organic disk -- just let it cool and clutch a few times to re-bed the surface before doing another hard pass.

I only overheated this clutch twice -- both times were at race days where I was forced by the track to hot-lap (on 90 degree days in June). I did over 10 back-to-back passes running around 11.4's-11.0's and by the last two passes, the clutch was slipping and had disengagement problems at the launch -- the car was creeping forward, causing me to redlight and lose the race (DropFest 2004 & 2006). Both times, I was able to let the car cool down at the end of the day, and drive it home just fine -- with no slipping problems.

This disk is very nice though -- it slips like a street disk, has no chatter, doesn't stink when overheated, and can handle a pretty darn large amount of abuse before becoming overheated. Best of it...when you engage the clutch, it can be modulated to feel like a street disk, or "dropped" and engages like a 6-puck -- Excellent engagement characteristics.

With the 2900, you should have no problems. Just make sure that your clutch is properly adjusted, and that the flywheel friction surface and hardware is NEW (be sure to use loctite red on the flywheel friction surface hardware) Also, be sure to use NEW flywheel bolts (since you are using a different crank -- it is better to start with fresh bolts -- with loctite red torqued to 75lb/ft). Be sure you have a stainless steel clutch line on the car, and expect to carry around the tools needed to adjust your clutch pedal during breakin on the clutch. My clutch changed NIGHT AND DAY in the first 250 miles, and I ended up NOT having the tools with me to adjust it, causing me to trash the synchros in a past tranny. Use GOOD clutch fluid (Valvoline synthetic DOT 3/4 brake fluid), and be sure to flush and bleed the system properly.


If you are using this clutch in a road race car (where you are not launching AT ALL), then I would reccomend the feramic 6-puck. But, if you are doing any drag racing or launches on the car, OR street driving, go with the full kevlar sprung disk from South Bend Clutch (link in 6th post of thread).

Thanks for the info, one last thing though, The friction plate for the fidanza still looks almost new... being that I only have about 5K on it mostly daily driving and a few weekend passess here and there... Do I really need one? I did not want to have to wait for fidanza to ship one out, plus I don't even know where they sell them...

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I think that it would work just fine. Just be careful when racing with it at your HP levels -- if you are hot lapping (doing at least 4 or 5 back-to-back 1/4 mile passes) you will overheat it -- you will need to give cool down time between runs. If you don't, the clutch disk surface will expand and not disengage 100%, along with the potential for slippage. Don't worry though...if you do overheat it, it isn't ruined like an organic disk -- just let it cool and clutch a few times to re-bed the surface before doing another hard pass.

I only overheated this clutch twice -- both times were at race days where I was forced by the track to hot-lap (on 90 degree days in June). I did over 10 back-to-back passes running around 11.4's-11.0's and by the last two passes, the clutch was slipping and had disengagement problems at the launch -- the car was creeping forward, causing me to redlight and lose the race (DropFest 2004 & 2006). Both times, I was able to let the car cool down at the end of the day, and drive it home just fine -- with no slipping problems.

This disk is very nice though -- it slips like a street disk, has no chatter, doesn't stink when overheated, and can handle a pretty darn large amount of abuse before becoming overheated. Best of it...when you engage the clutch, it can be modulated to feel like a street disk, or "dropped" and engages like a 6-puck -- Excellent engagement characteristics.

With the 2900, you should have no problems. Just make sure that your clutch is properly adjusted, and that the flywheel friction surface and hardware is NEW (be sure to use loctite red on the flywheel friction surface hardware) Also, be sure to use NEW flywheel bolts (since you are using a different crank -- it is better to start with fresh bolts -- with loctite red torqued to 75lb/ft). Be sure you have a stainless steel clutch line on the car, and expect to carry around the tools needed to adjust your clutch pedal during breakin on the clutch. My clutch changed NIGHT AND DAY in the first 250 miles, and I ended up NOT having the tools with me to adjust it, causing me to trash the synchros in a past tranny. Use GOOD clutch fluid (Valvoline synthetic DOT 3/4 brake fluid), and be sure to flush and bleed the system properly.


If you are using this clutch in a road race car (where you are not launching AT ALL), then I would reccomend the feramic 6-puck. But, if you are doing any drag racing or launches on the car, OR street driving, go with the full kevlar sprung disk from South Bend Clutch (link in 6th post of thread).

Thanks for the info, one last thing though, The friction plate for the fidanza still looks almost new... being that I only have about 5K on it mostly daily driving and a few weekend passess here and there... Do I really need one? I did not want to have to wait for fidanza to ship one out, plus I don't even know where they sell them...the disk on there right now is an organic act revised street disk, it still has lots of life left in it as well..

 

[twicks69]

Well, I would personally replace the friction surface -- if you don't you could easily have problems down the road. Each clutch disk is going to bed itself differently into the flywheel friction surface.

As for where to look, here are a list of links to start with, then use GOOGLE to find more.

http://www.ultrarev.com/Fidanza_Rep...2.0L_Turbo_1992_1999_(7_Bolt_AWD)-p39658.html $54.00
http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=19693&cat=253&page=2&veh=2G DSM $69.00
http://www.9secondracing.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?partnum=20782 $75.00
http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/safety.shtml $75.00
http://dsmparts.com/customer/product.php?productid=612 $85.00
http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=1223&cat=114&page=1 $90.00

Otherwise, contact:
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/fidanza.html
http://www.importperformanceparts.net
http://www.www.automotosports.com
http://www.buschurracing.com
http://www.roadraceengineering.com
http://www.machv.com


I hope that this helps.