SBR, JR or GReddy FMIC??

[AMS Eric #2]

So often when people look at intercooler kits, they fail to see the concept, or lack there of in many cases of efficient end tank design. So many end tanks out there are built without even thinking about flow dynamics. Often someone just builds them to fit the application, regardless of how well air will really flow thru it. This coming from someone that used to build FMIC kits. I built them for a while, and I cannot TOUCH the quality and design that our fabricators make into our kits. Put it this way, our kit is so good, I wouldnt even recommend anyone that had the old kit I made to keep running it. If you notice our 2g core has 3" in/outs with 2.5" piping. Alot of people ask why, the reason is the transistion in hose size going into the end tank starts the spreading of air earlier, helping it spread into more rows and not shoving most of it thru the middle rows. Same goes for the outlet, it gives a longer and less steep transistion back into the outlet pipe.


I wont get into the kits I like or dislike except for one, the GReddy kit. Its fine if your shooting for lower HP levels, but it just is not gonna support alot of HP. One of the pipes in the GReddy kit is 1.75" diameter for god sake. The stock rubber IC pipe it bolts do has to actually be clamped and smashed down to fit onto the GReddy pipe. That is pretty much unacceptable in my opinion.

 

[Eclipsei95cl]

but damn $1195.. i would consider buyin a ams one if it just wasnt so expensive it looks like a nice core though.

 

[AMS Eric #2]

A year ago Indy Race Cores were selling FMIC kits like hotcakes at 1200 a pop or more man. Noone complained then and those guys were making a good chunk on each kit and STILL managed to piss it away and fold within 2 years. People are just used to seeing cheap ebay cores with alluminized piping kits thrown together for 600-700 bux now.

If you really think thats alot of money for a top notch quality kit, look at similar kits for other cars. The Perrin SRT-4 IC is 1200 bux and it is JUST a core, no piping at all. Look at Audi, Porsche, and other higher end cars. People sell kits that are very similar to ours for 2 and 3 times the price, because they know that people in that range wont say anything about price. They want the best regardless of cost and people in that market DEFINATLY take advantage of it.

Its a double edged sword really. We will NOT produce low quality cheap parts. But when people are modifying 3000 dollar cars, some just dont want to pay that kind of money. I guess the good thing is there are both options out there. You can get an ok quality product for less and a top notch quality product for more.

 

[Fusion1984]

Wish I never spent the 800 shipped on my GReddy when I could have saved another 200 and got a much better, short routed system from AGP or SBR. I would say go with either of those. Good luck.

 

[Eclipsei95cl]

A year ago Indy Race Cores were selling FMIC kits like hotcakes at 1200 a pop or more man. Noone complained then and those guys were making a good chunk on each kit and STILL managed to piss it away and fold within 2 years. People are just used to seeing cheap ebay cores with alluminized piping kits thrown together for 600-700 bux now.

If you really think thats alot of money for a top notch quality kit, look at similar kits for other cars. The Perrin SRT-4 IC is 1200 bux and it is JUST a core, no piping at all. Look at Audi, Porsche, and other higher end cars. People sell kits that are very similar to ours for 2 and 3 times the price, because they know that people in that range wont say anything about price. They want the best regardless of cost and people in that market DEFINATLY take advantage of it.

Its a double edged sword really. We will NOT produce low quality cheap parts. But when people are modifying 3000 dollar cars, some just dont want to pay that kind of money. I guess the good thing is there are both options out there. You can get an ok quality product for less and a top notch quality product for more.

The AGP and SBR Kits are great quality and I believe the SBR is a bigger core than the AMS and their both under a grand. I bet you SBR are selling there kits like hot cakes because they have one of the biggest cores in there kit plus SBR has a good rep. and for 879 shipped you cant beat that.

 

[sting0004]

I know that last reply wasn't against the rules or anything, but I can just see this turning into an argument. Lets stay on topic. When I make the purchase It will probably be a JR kit just becuase its cheaper and still good quality. -Matt

 

[Eclipsei95cl]

I am not lookin to bash AMS I think they have a good quality product and there company has done great things its just that there FMIC kit is a little overpriced when i believe AGP or SBR have top notch kits as good as the AMS kits, but AGP and SBR have there kits for sale at a reasonable price compared to AMS thats all..AMS has a good IC though please dont think im bashin them. Ok back on topic sorry for kinda jackin it. Yes, the JR kit does look like a good kit and at a very good price

 

[definitiveno]

So often when people look at intercooler kits, they fail to see the concept, or lack there of in many cases of efficient end tank design. So many end tanks out there are built without even thinking about flow dynamics. Often someone just builds them to fit the application, regardless of how well air will really flow thru it. This coming from someone that used to build FMIC kits. I built them for a while, and I cannot TOUCH the quality and design that our fabricators make into our kits. Put it this way, our kit is so good, I wouldnt even recommend anyone that had the old kit I made to keep running it. If you notice our 2g core has 3" in/outs with 2.5" piping. Alot of people ask why, the reason is the transistion in hose size going into the end tank starts the spreading of air earlier, helping it spread into more rows and not shoving most of it thru the middle rows. Same goes for the outlet, it gives a longer and less steep transistion back into the outlet pipe.


I wont get into the kits I like or dislike except for one, the GReddy kit. Its fine if your shooting for lower HP levels, but it just is not gonna support alot of HP. One of the pipes in the GReddy kit is 1.75" diameter for god sake. The stock rubber IC pipe it bolts do has to actually be clamped and smashed down to fit onto the GReddy pipe. That is pretty much unacceptable in my opinion.

a picture would be worth a thousand words

 

[definitiveno]

I am not lookin to bash AMS I think they have a good quality product and there company has done great things its just that there FMIC kit is a little overpriced when i believe AGP or SBR have top notch kits as good as the AMS kits, but AGP and SBR have there kits for sale at a reasonable price compared to AMS thats all..AMS has a good IC though please dont think im bashin them. Ok back on topic sorry for kinda jackin it. Yes, the JR kit does look like a good kit and at a very good price

I think eric made a good point about the steepness of the end takes. Take a look at jr's 45 degree angulation. Not, for the lack of a better word, very smooth or flowy from what I can see.

 

[AMS Eric #2]

OK I found a few pics of the kit, nothing great though. We are in the process of building a totally new website because our current one in so many words.....SUCKS.

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This is a pic of the 2g core modified to fit my GVR4. Don't mind the 70s moptop, its all cut off now.

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Keep in mind out kit uses 2.5" fully polished alluminum piping, the best looking, lightest, and best at reducing charge temperatures. It also uses the same core as our Evo 8 IC kit. Which at 667 whp and 38 psi of boost, only had a 1.5 psi of pressure drop between the intlet tank and the intake manifold of the car. That number will be very hard to beat.

Keep in mind that SBR's $879 kit suddenly goes to $1179 if you want polished piping, and I believe its made of stainless which is heavier, harder to repolish, and worse at reducing charge temps. They also hit you up for $20 or $40 bux more if you need an HKS or Tial flange. Our price included ANY flange at no extra charge. It appears to be a pretty nice kit, but when you add the options to make the comparison apples to apples, they end up being about the same price. I cant tell what core they are using, possibly a Garrett but I cant see any pics close enough to really tell.

I dont even know whats up with these Johny Racecar kits you guys are talking about. It looks like they are using some sort of unknown, possibly cheap ebay tube and fin cores. Looks like you might get what you pay for here.

What can I say about AGP? Ben is a great guy, Ive talked to him for quite a few years now, and we used to both be Turbo Colt owners back in the day. If you didnt pick our kit, I would rather you go with AGP than almost anyone else. His kit uses the tried and tested Spearco 2-216 core which you cant go wrong with. He uses the short route piping, which I used to use on 2gs back in the day when I built ICs for 2gs. We chose to go the long route because we designed the end tanks with ultimate flow in mind. You do sacrifice some effenciency with the short route tank design, but nothing major. You do have to hack on the core support to make the short route fit. Im not positive but since he has them powdercoated, I would say the piping is made of alluminized steel, which is cheap to use and heavy. Ben correct me if I'm wrong here. His kit looks like it normally sells for 1195 but on his page he lists it "on sale" for $999. Again he ads $50 for HKS or Tial flanges.

Overall, you can bolt the SBR, AGP, or AMS IC to a 2g and have excellent results from all 3. The JR I'm just not sure about, so I wont pretend to know and comment either way. Im also not trying to knock or belittle anyones kit, just giving some justification as to why ours is priced a little higher. We always do things for a reason, we try to build and sell the best product available regardless of price.

Sometimes you gotta look a little deeper than just the price tag..........

Eric #2

 

[NDgsx]

The "sbr" kits have used a garret core, the new ones are spearco. My shop also sells the kinetic IC kits for the same price as SBR. I just haven't got around to putting it on the website. For what they are it's a good kit. It's hard to convince DSM guys that isn't better though and most end up opting for whatever is cheap.

Another option to look at if you want a endtank that has function in the design, instead of just making it fit on the car, check out Albert's setup:
http://www.dvdtfab.com/2g_intercooler_kit.htm
If I were shopping for the best design I would look at the AMS or DVDT kits.

 

[mlopez]

For what its worth, I have been running the AGP kit for a while now and its been great. Had one on my previous 2G and picked up another one for my current Spyder. I highly recommend the AGP F-mount.

 

[doug]

In my FMIC search, I'm now down to either the DV/DT kit or the AMS kit. I'd rather have short-route piping, but only because I'm planning on putting an A/T cooler in place of the stock SMIC, not because of any "performance" advantage. I just saw on the DV/DT web site, however, that he's switched from the Spearco core to some other place since he was having trouble getting the Spearcos. That kind of concerns me since I know nothing of this other place, Fluid Control Products or somesuch.

Also, I was considering the ADFX kit but when I talked with Martin at The Speed Factor he said they're no longer carrying them since they were hard to get in touch with and pretty non-responsive. There's only one other place listed on the ADFX web site as a distributor so I wrote them but haven't heard back yet.

And I just really don't like the end tank design of the SlowBoy or AGP kits.

 

[sleeper142]

In my FMIC search, I'm now down to either the DV/DT kit or the AMS kit. I'd rather have short-route piping, but only because I'm planning on putting an A/T cooler in place of the stock SMIC, not because of any "performance" advantage. I just saw on the DV/DT web site, however, that he's switched from the Spearco core to some other place since he was having trouble getting the Spearcos. That kind of concerns me since I know nothing of this other place, Fluid Control Products or somesuch.

Also, I was considering the ADFX kit but when I talked with Martin at The Speed Factor he said they're no longer carrying them since they were hard to get in touch with and pretty non-responsive. There's only one other place listed on the ADFX web site as a distributor so I wrote them but haven't heard back yet.

And I just really don't like the end tank design of the SlowBoy or AGP kits.

I still can get the Spearco cores, just have not yet updated my site to include that. You have an option between either the Fluid Control Product core, or the Spearco core.

Really its quite a trade off between the two cores. The Fluid Control Products core has the same construction as the Garrett cores, which are what AMS is using I believe. In theory a core with a louvered internal fin structure would have a greater pressure drop, but roughly 20-30% better cooling efficiency. However the cross sectional area of the rows of the FCP core that I use is larger than that of the Spearco.

So then in theory, you are now able to flow a larger volume of air across these louvered fins, equating to a lower pressure drop. Whereas with the spearco core, you have non-louvered internal fin structure, which would typically mean that you have a lower pressure drop, across the core. But the cross sectional area of the rows, is smaller (the Spearco uses 1/4" rows as opposed to the FCP core which uses 3/8" rows).

The spearco has 15 rows, whereas the FCP core has 13 rows
The spearco has non louvered internal fins, whereas the FCP core has louvered internal fins
The spearco has 1/4" rows vs the FCP which has 3/8" rows.

See this starting to add up yet? You really end up with a trade off situation. I am currently in the process of doing a formal writeup of this, presented with the facts that I presented you all above. But in the mean time, this is why I still offer both cores. Because when it comes down to it, you have alot of people who remain faithful to brand names.

I could and may do some calculations to present to you all in my write up of what theoritically would be better on paper, but I would like to do a test this year, of the spearco vs. FCP core on the dyno, to get some real world results.

Hope this was semi helpful.

 

[doug]

Will a kit with the Spearco core be the same price as one with the FCP core?

 

[sleeper142]

Yup, no difference in price.

 

[99gst_racer]

I ditched the Greddy for the SBR. Its like 5 feet less pipe, the Greddy was the one to have like 4 years ago. Now there are many short routed, good size core FMIC out there.I am 100% satisfied with the SBR.

That's funny that we both have red 99 gst's and I also ditched my GReddy for an SBR. I also love the SBR and I'm 110% satisfied with it.

I would not recommend the GReddy unless you pay less than $600 new. For what it's currently selling for, you could get much more. I have never used a JR, so I have no comments (although I have heard nothing but good thing about it.)

 

[Street Surgeon]

I'm faced with the FMIC dillemma too... I'll have the cash in a few days or so... Too bad dv/dt doesn't have 1G kits yet


Iiiiiiin this corner weighing in at just around 1100.00 Victory Performance

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Aaaaaaaaand in this corner, weighing in at about 1200.00 we have the dv/dt fabrications

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Why more intercoolers aren't designed with better endtanks is beyond me...

 

[boostedinaz]

I still can get the Spearco cores, just have not yet updated my site to include that. You have an option between either the Fluid Control Product core, or the Spearco core.

Really its quite a trade off between the two cores. The Fluid Control Products core has the same construction as the Garrett cores, which are what AMS is using I believe. In theory a core with a louvered internal fin structure would have a greater pressure drop, but roughly 20-30% better cooling efficiency. However the cross sectional area of the rows of the FCP core that I use is larger than that of the Spearco.

So then in theory, you are now able to flow a larger volume of air across these louvered fins, equating to a lower pressure drop. Whereas with the spearco core, you have non-louvered internal fin structure, which would typically mean that you have a lower pressure drop, across the core. But the cross sectional area of the rows, is smaller (the Spearco uses 1/4" rows as opposed to the FCP core which uses 3/8" rows).

The spearco has 15 rows, whereas the FCP core has 13 rows
The spearco has non louvered internal fins, whereas the FCP core has louvered internal fins
The spearco has 1/4" rows vs the FCP which has 3/8" rows.

See this starting to add up yet? You really end up with a trade off situation. I am currently in the process of doing a formal writeup of this, presented with the facts that I presented you all above. But in the mean time, this is why I still offer both cores. Because when it comes down to it, you have alot of people who remain faithful to brand names.

I could and may do some calculations to present to you all in my write up of what theoritically would be better on paper, but I would like to do a test this year, of the spearco vs. FCP core on the dyno, to get some real world results.

Hope this was semi helpful.

Do you plan on making a 1G kit or even just a core that will fit nicley with those endtanks? If so would it be possible to make one with a smaller core say around the size of the common "streetcore"? I dont plan on running any huge turbo and really dont see the need for some of these huge cores. I know you have to make money and the market would need to be there but is at all possible?

 

[Victory]

Kit choice can sometimes depend on your intended level of performance or use. If your running a 16G and your not concerned with squeezing every last bit of power out of the car then I would say the “EBAY” kits and cheaper kits with less than optimal end tank designs or materials will work just fine. Any of the kits you’ve mentioned would work just fine. These kits will also work with a larger turbo as well but you will be leaving power “on the table” so to speak.

If you’re looking to win races or maximize your setup then you need to consider other options that are more thoroughly tested and thought out. It’s not by mistake that VPE end tanks were built the way they are or that VPE tubes keep a smooth flow in order to minimize frictional losses (back pressure). I’ve been producing IC kits now for years and am amazed how popular other poorly designed kits continue to be. Plan carefully. Spend wisely.

I recommend doing a search on FMIC’s. I recently posted to a thread not that long ago and talked about our testing of various cores and results. Keep in mind we’ve tested kits on two cars that have run sub-10’s.

In case your wondering. We manufacture our kits with proprietary cores. They are similar in construction to the Spearcos only I’ve designed them with higher efficiency levels. We’ve tried the Garrett cores but continue using what we have produced. It wasn’t because of price if that’s what you’re thinking.

 

[sleeper142]

I have done some test fitting of my end tanks on a 1g recently. To get the tanks to fit on the 1g, large spacer blocks would need to be made. To me, this did not seem like a good idea. The whole premise behind my kit, is to keep the entire system under smooth transitions, both with respect to pipe bends, and end tank design.

The end tanks were specifically designed to be used on the EVO and 2g DSM front frame. If you are looking for a 1g kit, I personally recall seeing the Victory kit a few years back, and saying to myself, "its about time someone did it that way". To me it would seem that victory has one of the nicer 1g kits out there. Given that the front frame doesn't leave much for accomidation of large end tanks, Victory seems to have done a decent job at their tank design.

FYI- I no longer use spearco cores. In fact... I dont know anybody who uses them. I know many larger companies like AMS and forced performance are using fluid control product cores.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Damn Last time I spoke with you on the phone you were working one up and mentioned it should be done early spring sometime. Did you get that email I sent you with the example of a 1G kit that had similar end-tanks?

 

[boostedinaz]

I have done some test fitting of my end tanks on a 1g recently. To get the tanks to fit on the 1g, large spacer blocks would need to be made. To me, this did not seem like a good idea. The whole premise behind my kit, is to keep the entire system under smooth transitions, both with respect to pipe bends, and end tank design.

The end tanks were specifically designed to be used on the EVO and 2g DSM front frame. If you are looking for a 1g kit, I personally recall seeing the Victory kit a few years back, and saying to myself, "its about time someone did it that way". To me it would seem that victory has one of the nicer 1g kits out there. Given that the front frame doesn't leave much for accomidation of large end tanks, Victory seems to have done a decent job at their tank design.

FYI- I no longer use spearco cores. In fact... I dont know anybody who uses them. I know many larger companies like AMS and forced performance are using fluid control product cores.

Thats what I was looking for. Thansk for the response.

 

[sleeper142]

Damn Last time I spoke with you on the phone you were working one up and mentioned it should be done early spring sometime. Did you get that email I sent you with the example of a 1G kit that had similar end-tanks?

If you are Cory O'connor, then yes. You will have to excuse the lateness of my reply. I did respond, it was just a few weeks later. Sorry.

I fitted the tanks and core up to a 1g around here locally, and i think like a 3.5" box section spacer would need to be put in between the tank and the core, a bit over kill I thought. So like I said, it could be done, but why bother, the tanks were specifically designed in CAD for the 2g dsm and evo front chassis member, this will allow for the best possible fitment on these cars.

On a side note, the core will also work on the old evo chassis (i.e. evo 2, mirage platform) this is because they share the same chassis platform (at least core support wise) as the 2g dsm.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Ah yeah that's me. I actually didn't get that email back (stupid spam filter is gettin' pretty nazi on my ass) so that's why I didn't know. Sucks to hear but at least I know where to head now. Also, I read somewhere (or thought I did at least) that you designed those endtanks on >insert whatever software here< in one day? Can you redesign the endtanks specifically for the 1G to make it work instead of just using the 2G's plus a spacer? I'm talking out my @$$ here as I have no clue to any of this. Just spoutin' ideas.