[RESOLVED] Full rebuild dilema

[malucifer]

Well heres the story I tore the engine to rebuild it, got myself some wiseco 9.0:1's(6 bolt 1gen) and eagle rods. Put everything back together and after charging the battery for a bit tried cranking it over, it "sounds" like its cranking really fast although the lights go dead momentarily when I start to crank it (obviously from the non fully charged battery) once in every 6-15 rotations the car will through a quick backfire and sometimes a whistle out of my dump tube. Any ideas or should I wait for a fully charged battery before thinking im screwed? I did this build in the snow in my driveway so im hoping its not all in vain. Also can anyone tell me what bolts are used for the oil return line end that goes to the oil pan I need to pick up 2 more of those and im not sure what type of bolt they are. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[turbotemper]

All for the love of DSm's
I too am getting ready to build a new motor.
First things first
I will torque plate and hone the block.
I have read a ton of threads where people didnt have this done and now there whole project is shot.

Old Mechanic Proverbial saying:

Cheap and fast is not reliable.
Reliable and cheap is not fast.
Fast and reliable is not cheap.

 

[malucifer]

Indeed, I worked with the cash I had couldnt ask for more the engine "Looks" great and has nice parts in it, just doesnt run

 

[Grant]

A very easy way to see if your valves are sealing at least half-way decently is to take the head off, flip it upside down, and leave the cams bolted down. You should be able to work your way across the head and check for (at the very least) partial sealing, or you can see if you have any damage to the head, bent valves, etc.

Start by turning your cams until the valves appear to be fully closed in the cylinder of your choice. Then pour water into the combustion chamber slowly and check to see if it holds water. You may have to play with the cams a little bit to get the valves fully seated, but you will be able to tell if they are obviously leaking.

I had this exact kinda thing happen, except without the expensive new parts, and it turned out that not only did I bend a valve, but when it bent, it broke the valve guide off, which fell into the cylinder and bashed up the piston, and then bent up the exhaust valves on the way out! All because my freaking timing belt either wasn't fully tensioned at start up, or slipped/skipped a tooth so that my 272's were obviously out of sync with the pistons!

If you really messed something up, it will be OBVIOUS! I could easily see the valve bending when I held the cam in the exact spot, and as the cam lobe actuated the valve, I could see it bending to move over so it would actually fit into the valve seat. At that point I knew that I was in for some trouble and money!

Ahh, too bad we don't have non-interference pistons...........

At the same time as no compression is terrible, he could also have spark and/or fuel problems. Apparently cheap spark plug wires are rather fragile, and it took me a couple sets to finally get reliable spark.

Yeah, timing can definitely play a role in compression. Once the valves were bent, my compression numbers went #1 155, #2 a whopping 0!, #3 115, and #4 155. Cylinder #2 was obviously really messed up!

Best rule of "thumb" that I can think of when rebuilding an engine is be careful! check and recheck if you have too, but make sure you get it right, unless of course, you enjoy pulling your engine at regular intervals,

 

[agamble69]

Well heres the story I tore the engine to rebuild it, got myself some wiseco 9.0:1's(6 bolt 1gen) and eagle rods. Put everything back together and after charging the battery for a bit tried cranking it over, it "sounds" like its cranking really fast although the lights go dead momentarily when I start to crank it (obviously from the non fully charged battery) once in every 6-15 rotations the car will through a quick backfire and sometimes a whistle out of my dump tube. Any ideas or should I wait for a fully charged battery before thinking im screwed? I did this build in the snow in my driveway so im hoping its not all in vain. make shure the dowl pins on the cams are above the bolt there are two marks on the oppisite sides if not correct total destruction will accure

 

[BoredDSM]

If you drain the oil you can smell if there is gasoline in it. Just because you put oil in there doesn't mean the compression will go up because rings have to at least be properly ground down and installed. How did you install the rings? Poor installing on rings and poor hone can make you loose all compression and just lets oil leak straight through into the crank case.

 

[malucifer]

Well let me walk through what I tested out today. I believe the bolt hole is stripped on the oil pan (return line hole) as I cannot get a single 10mm to fit in there appropriately, so I tightened the one side as good as I could to get the oil to a minimal drip, filled it up with 5 quarts, tested compression, tried starting (no avail of course) then I smelled the catch pan after about 3 quarts drained out into it and there wasnt a gas smell to it. I do have spark and gas running through the fuel line. But now looking back into the build, I dont remember aligning the marks on the center of the camshafts to 12 o clock I know I lined the outer ones up at the head level. Its looking more and more like perhaps valves being trashed or timing be way out. I had to work today so didnt get to fully take a look at everything I wanted to. And also being my first full rebuild done, I was under the impression that when I ordered the pistons for std bore size the rings would have came the right size (is this true or not? Do they just come in one size no matter what bore?) if I need to have the ring gaps adjusted do you think its too late for that? I mean can I remove them and get some feeler's out and re adjust them? Sorry for the PITA-Noob issues, just trying to sort things out as to where I should start. My guess would be take off the head check it out first since in the end I would need to do that anyway. Thanks again all, and BoredDSM.

 

[dnelsontsiawd]

I would check the timing first sounds to me like the belt is on wrong. u can use a flash light 2 check the valves if u see light there is a leak.

 

[malucifer]

Alright so Ill take the head off tomorrow, shine a flash light in,near,around the appropriate valves on the top and see if light comes through the valves after playing with it to make it about where the valves should be closed completely. Now honestly if only on cylinders valves are toast would that kill the rest of the cylinders compression as well? In case only one set or 2 is bad. Thanks again Ill keep trying here but im out of cash to machine this baby. Also quick side note, my luck seems to be bad this week, my 95 Tsi caught fire near the (general) alternator area, although the fire is controlled, no fuses are blown, car still goes to the on position, I just am afraid to try to start it again and see what happens. There was a bit of oil buildup in and around the area, what do you think oil caught on fire from alternator or spark somewhere? Or possibly wiring issue? It does smell like burnt wires but only in the area of the fire. cry Luck is evil. Sorry for the off topic.

 

[malucifer]

Perhaps I found a the situation. Well decided to do the timing today, got all the pulleys/drivebelts off, then I took off the TB cover...wrapped up around the tensioner was my balancer belt. Could this very well be the entire problem aside from crappy timing as well? If so do you think autozone or napa carries this belt?

 

[wancsta]

If this ends up being a botched build, anyone want some std bore wiseco 9.0:1's on eagle rods, tubular manifold, o2 open dump, 1g fmic+piping for $1000?

Hrmmm I am looking for a new fmic setup. Let me know. But good luck getting her going.

 

[malucifer]

Haha ok well getting the belts in about an hour and a half Ill let you know if it works afterwards

 

[mobythevan]

When the cam gear timing marks align the dowel pins are both up right? Seems to me like you could have ended up swapping the cam gears between intake and exhaust so the dowel pins are down now when the marks align. Just a thought.

 

[malucifer]

Actually the CAS on my 1g wouldnt work that way since the slot on the intake side isnt on the exhaust side =) But yeah putting the belts on now we will see what happens.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Tell me if that works because when I did a rebuild on my Gs-t I had belt problems too. It was all fixed when belts were put on. ### it ran good before.

 

[Grant]

with really low compression numbers, your car SHOULD crank extra fast, (less load on the starter). So you now have the belt that goes to the balance shaft wrapped around the timing belt tensioner? That's kinda funny.WTF I could see how your timing belt may be off a couple teeth, and/or that other things might be out of whack as well.

Since ## pulling the head off anyway, i guess that a flashlight would work too, just a different way of doing it. Hopefully your valves aren't trashed, and the head is still salvageable but i guess you'll find out.

Usually when you order standard bore pistons, u'll generally get the same size rings. I think that it would be pretty hard to get a feeler gauge into the bore and then file the ring down, if for whatever reason it didn't fit or wasn't properly sized.

 

[jdodds]

Maybe I misread something in this thread but didnt he say he had no oil in the motor the first time he tried to start it? I think I also read that he was cranking it with the cams removed. That would mean that he didnt have the timing belt on and the oil pump couldnt pump any oil through the motor.

If any of you build a motor, double check everything when you get it all put in. BEFORE YOU START IT, disconnect the cas so you dont get spark or fuel. Crank it over enough to get some oil pumped through the motor. Start the car and let it run until it gets up to operating temp. Start draining your oil if youve had machine work done on the motor and check the compression while its still warm. Fill it back up with oil and go through a normal break in period.

You cant just start these up and go like hell. That might be ok on a track only car but those get rebuild often enough to avoid any engine damage.

 

[770eclipse]

I would recommend getting rid of the balance shafts. Less moving parts less to break. Plus it is a breeze to time without them.

 

[malucifer]

Maybe I misread something in this thread but didnt he say he had no oil in the motor the first time he tried to start it? I think I also read that he was cranking it with the cams removed. That would mean that he didnt have the timing belt on and the oil pump couldnt pump any oil through the motor.

If any of you build a motor, double check everything when you get it all put in. BEFORE YOU START IT, disconnect the cas so you dont get spark or fuel. Crank it over enough to get some oil pumped through the motor. Start the car and let it run until it gets up to operating temp. Start draining your oil if youve had machine work done on the motor and check the compression while its still warm. Fill it back up with oil and go through a normal break in period.

You cant just start these up and go like hell. That might be ok on a track only car but those get rebuild often enough to avoid any engine damage.

#1 Well I "did" have oil in it to start with the oil pan bolt I had in my jacket was an extra one from the other pan I have. The oil leaked out overnight through the hole in the oil return line.

#2 I never cranked it with the cams removed, I rotated it with a breaker bar when I was putting the pistons in for ease of seing the rod fit onto the crankshaft. The timing belt was on the car the times I actually cranked it with the starter.

#3 I did double check many things but I put the timing cover on and it obviosuly snapped as soon as I tried cranking it with the incorrectly timed belt.

And as for removing the balance shafts my engine isnt coming outta the car in my driveway any time soon and I already got the balance shaft belt... next problem getting that damn crank sprocket off and on.

Oh and the balance belt wasnt around the timing belt tensioner just the balance belt tensioner

But for tonight its the end of my work going out to eat and its too dark to work on the car making sure the timing marks are still aligned would be agitating so tomorrow = updates.

 

[mobythevan]

Actually the CAS on my 1g wouldnt work that way since the slot on the intake side isnt on the exhaust side =) But yeah putting the belts on now we will see what happens.

I didn't mean swapping the cams, I just meant the cam gears. If you never took the cam gears off the cams then it is a mute point. Anyway, that doesn't sound like your issue since you made sure both dowel pins point up when the marks align. Maybe the cam gears cannot be swapped like I am thinking because of dowel pin size differences or something. I'll have to check into it tonight on my spare head.

 

[Grant]

ahh okay. sorry bout the mixup, guess i misread.

To me it sounds like a major head issue. If your timing belt is off at all, you can relatively easily bend a valve, which would account for the low compression numbers as well as the crazy burp noises that are coming out your intake,(very likely the piston is blowing the mixture back into the intake, and then having it pre-ignite)

I know that it's a pain in the arse, but after getting the sprockets off, pulling the head is the next step. Once it's off, it is much easier to diagnose what is fundamentally wrong with ## engine. And with compression numbers that low, something is definitely up!

Although it's not good to not have any oil in your engine, (even though you did) it shoulda still ran for a bit.

Did the engine run at all when you first tried to start it? or was it just the crank, crank, crank..........

Also, when you crank it, were you getting ridiculous amounts of air out of your pcv? just another thing to check, at least compression wise.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Sorry to bring this back up, but if you don't have enough ring gap, your rings can "but up" against each other when they get hot, and lock in the cylinder bore. Also, Im not sure if you know this, but the oil pump has another balance shaft attached to it that is NOT geared 1:1, so it isn't enough to just line up the pointers on that sprocket. You also have to remove the plug from the back of the block and make sure you can stick a 1/4" extension in there. Don't forget to remove it either. Having that wrong won't keep it from running, but it will cause an annoying vibration. You might already know all this, I don't know, but I figured if you didn't, I would save you some headaches.

 

[malucifer]

Sorry to bring this back up, but if you don't have enough ring gap, your rings can "but up" against each other when they get hot, and lock in the cylinder bore. Also, Im not sure if you know this, but the oil pump has another balance shaft attached to it that is NOT geared 1:1, so it isn't enough to just line up the pointers on that sprocket. You also have to remove the plug from the back of the block and make sure you can stick a 1/4" extension in there. Don't forget to remove it either.

@Colt Ahh so the oil pump sprocket even when lined up right might not be timed up right. So basically remove the rubber plug stick a 1/4 in there and if it does go through it and the mark is lined up then the oil pump is on the right track then. And if the oil pump sprocket isnt lined up can I just turn the sprocket until it lines up since my timing belt isnt on atm.

@moby And yeah I never took the cam gears off just the whole cams themselves (since I was going to do a head job but never did) But ya know what bothers me I looked under the hood when I got home from eating and the dowel pins on my cams (the exhaust is facing 12 intake 6) there are 2 marks on my intake cam gear, is that normal or by some ####ed up chance someone nicked my cam gear 180 degrees from the original mark. Perhaps that could be the entire issue all together. That would mean that what the exhaust and intake valves are opening and closing at the same time if lined up 180 off on the intake right? Ugh well cant have your first build be perfect now can you


@Grant It never did actaually start not even for a moment and after seing a few timing issues im pretty glad it never started

So here is what im going to do and please let me know if this is correct.

Timing Belt is Off along with all other belts atm.

Step #1 Undo the caps on the cam, lift them out(as to make sure all the valves are closed), put it back on with the relative alignment of the dowel pins and the timing marks on the camshafts, get the marks perfect then bolt the caps down with the marks still in place.

Step #2 (Get the bastard sprocket off with it still aligned on the crank time mark) put on balancer belt making sure the stealth sprocket is lined up correctly.

Step #3 (Put the bastard sprocket on) Align the oil pump sprocket, realign the rest of the marks if they moved any.

Step #4 If all marks are lined up then proceed to put the timing belt on while keep the marks aligned.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks again for all your help guys.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Yes basically, but it isn't a rubber plug, it's a bolt in the back of the block that looks like it isn't doing anything. It's a couple inches above the oil pan. You want to be able to stick the extension in at least a couple inches while the pointer is lined up. If you turn the sprocket you'll feel the shaft in there with the extension, so you can't go wrong.

 

[mobythevan]

But ya know what bothers me I looked under the hood when I got home from eating and the dowel pins on my cams (the exhaust is facing 12 intake 6) there are 2 marks on my intake cam gear, is that normal or by some ####ed up chance someone nicked my cam gear 180 degrees from the original mark. Perhaps that could be the entire issue all together. That would mean that what the exhaust and intake valves are opening and closing at the same time if lined up 180 off on the intake right?

Now that you mention I think the gears do have two marks that is why is is important to make sure the dowels point up. If you have one up and one down when your marks align then this should be your biggest problem with no compression. Hopefully the valves didn't hit pistons in this configuration. If they didn't you should be able to re-time and fire up. I would remove the timing belt, roll the crank by hand so the pistons are away from the top, then remove the valve cover and time the cam gears correctly with no belt. At this point check all the rocker arms to see if any are loose. That is the easiest quick way to see if valves are bent badly. If all rockers are tight I would re-time it and see if it starts, then do a compression check.

 

[malucifer]

Alright im really having a hard time removing the crank pulley ive got a breaker bar in the opening a 7/8ths open/closed end wrench with the closed end on the bolt itself and a wratchet strap connected to it to the back of the car wratcheted that bastard as tight as I can get it and pushing on the bar with both legs still wont break lose. Any ideas aside from the starter?