[RESOLVED] Crank won't turn, cylinder wall rust / rusty

[turbosax2]

My engine has been on a stand for about 6 months now. The head never came off the block, the cams have never been out, and none of the internals were touched whatsoever. The balance shafts have been eliminated and the timing belt is currently off.

My project thread is here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/298569-my-fuse-box-relocation-project-log.html


Now my problem is the crank won't turn freely. I can get pistons 2 and 3 to TDC but the crank stops spinning when all the pistons are even (halfway). I can not get 1 and 4 to TDC. I haven't torqued down the crank bolt yet, just enough so I can turn the crank both ways without it coming loose. I put all the pistons even and the cams were able to spin freely. No matter what position the cams are in, the crank still stops at the same point.

The problem can't be valves, oil pump, or balance shafts, so whats wrong with my engine

 

[Defiant]

Waitaminute.... is the head off or not?

 

[Jeff99GS]

My engine has been on a stand for about 6 months now. The head never came off the block, the cams have never been out, and none of the internals were touched whatsoever. The balance shafts have been eliminated and the timing belt is currently off.

My project thread is here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/298569-my-fuse-box-relocation-project-log.html


Now my problem is the crank won't turn freely. I can get pistons 2 and 3 to TDC but the crank stops spinning when all the pistons are even (halfway). I can not get 1 and 4 to TDC. I haven't torqued down the crank bolt yet, just enough so I can turn the crank both ways without it coming loose. I put all the pistons even and the cams were able to spin freely. No matter what position the cams are in, the crank still stops at the same point.

The problem can't be valves, oil pump, or balance shafts, so whats wrong with my engine

Maybe you have a ring of suface rust on the cylinder walls from it sitting so long. Or maybe something fell in a spark plug hole. Are the spark plugs in or out?

 

[turbosax2]

The head is on. It was never taken off. The spark plugs are out. Nothing could have fallen in a spark plug hole because the spark plugs were just taken out yesterday, they have been in since the motor was pulled. Looking up from the bottom I don't see any rust in the cylinder walls, but I guess there could be.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

You can't even force it to turn? Wonder if you applied enough grease to the crank bearings or something? Thats the only other thing the crank is in contact with that would cause it besides the pistons not going up smoothly because of rust.

James

 

[turbosax2]

I don't want to attempt to force it. I'm scared to try it. I never touched any of the internals, including the crank, pistons, rods, and all bearings (except the 2 balance shaft bearings).

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Did you spray any lubricant into the motor? I've always been told to do that to keep it from rusting? Or was this motor SEALED? As in no way for air to get in, like a plastic bag sealed?

James

 

[turbosax2]

No, I didn't spray any lubricant. I always kept a trash bag over the motor though, although it was not sealed completely.

I'm going to take the cams out now.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

1: The head never came off the block
2: the cams have never been out
3: the timing belt is currently off.

Ok given this info I would say that because its an interceptor motor the crank should only turn until the piston hits whatever valves are open.

You may have to take the cams off to allow the motor to spin to wherever you are trying to get it to go. Or if your crafty you can put the timing belt back on with the motor lined up enough to allow you to get it back to tdc.

 

[turbosax2]

The cams came out with ease and the problem is still the same.

 

[JusMX141]

You can try to spray some Fogging Oil or WD40 into the spark plug holes, then crank the engine over slowly to see if there is some surface rust on the cylinder walls that is causing the stiffness.

This winter hasn't been too bad, but last winter there were so many drastic temp changes in Western PA that it caused alot of my clean metal to develop surface rust....even if it was covered. One night it would be 18*, two days later the high would be 63*. EVERYTHING in my shop was wet to the touch.

 

[turbosax2]

Verified there IS rust in cylinders 2 and 3, that's what stopping those pistons from coming down all the way. I think 1 and 4 have some in the bottom of the cylinders too but those pistons still can get all the way down.

What's my course of action now? WD-40?

Edit: This is from looking underneath the motor. I can't see anything through the spark plug holes.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

This should do. FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

I would take the head off and make sure everything else is ok. Just to be safe. You have done all this work, it would be dumb not to.

James

 

[turbosax2]

What would I look for when taking the head off? Just for bent valves or something else? I really don't want to take any of this apart and that will only be a last resort option. I'm so poor right now it's ridiculous.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

You werent even going to take the head off anyway? Where is your brother right now?!!! I would have thought you would at least put on a new gasket and ARPs to be safe. We need a vendor to get you a redicious good price on a stud and gasket package. I would take it off, remove the old gasket, sand down the block surface using very fine grit paper, and see how bad that rust is. This is your car for crying out loud. Don't cheap out now, you have come so far with this thing.

James

EDIT: And you dont know how bad it actually is. I bet its not bad but you dont know. And how else are you going to know until you try to start that motor? Or take the head off.

 

[turbosax2]

What do I need a headgasket and studs for? I'm running a t25.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Headgasket because you never reuse composite gaskets and ARP's just in case yours are stretched. Plus, im sure that T25 wont be on for very long.

James

 

[turbosax2]

Seriously, I can't afford to do that stuff or get a new turbo. Even if I could afford a new turbo I don't have engine management, fuel, intercooler,...

I just want to drive my car.

 

[crimsondragon]

How bad is the rust? Try using some Naval Jelly to take it off. I use that stuff for fine rust.

 

[turbosax2]

I can't really tell how bad it is. It's hard to see up in the cylinders. I can just see the difference between the part that's shiny and the part that's rust colored. I can't reach up to touch the cylinder either.

 

[OddNotion]

Here is what I think:
Removing the cylinder head will undo a lot of beautiful work. How bad is the rust you can actually see? If the cylinder head has always been on the car, then any cylinder rust above the piston crown could only really have come from a valve being open. I presume you have rotated the crank at some point. Is this actually the first time you've turned it in a long time?

This kind of thing can happen to a car that sits for a long time with a valve open (as the engine stops turning during an intake or exhaust stroke when the car is shut off). I'm sure more than a few cars have been started after sitting with the above mentioned condition. I've probably done it with my car.

I'm not advocating forcing it, but if the rust really IS the only reason you can't get TDC, the only option really, is to lube it up through the spark hole and rotate it through.

My point being that this would happen anyway if there was rust inside a cylinder and you just went out to start the car.

Somebody check me on this.....

 

[turbosax2]

This is the first time I've turned the crank since the day I pulled it and tore it down. The cams weren't turned either since then, they rested in their natural position.

I'll see if I can take some pictures of the cylinders.

 

[turbosax2]

This is the best I can do. The rust doesn't look too bad to me but who knows. When you guys ask "how bad is the rust" it's hard to put this into words.

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So what do I try now? Spraying WD-40 in there certainly can't make it worse, right? Think I should give that a shot?

 

[OddNotion]

The third pic doesn't look too bad. I'm concerned about the second pic though. I still maintain that this could happen to any engine that sat with an open valve, and thus the solution will not turn out to be a major drastic one.

I also think that getting a penetrating lubricant in there, even if only to halt further oxidation, is a good first step.

And you are sure there is no debris stuck in a valve seat, holding a valve open?

 

[turbosax2]

And you are sure there is no debris stuck in a valve seat, holding a valve open?

How would I tell?