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Removing water pipe using JayRacing part, turbo water line routing?

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Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
8,053
3,072
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
So I'm ditching the water pipe using the JayRacing fitting for the water pump here:
Jay Racing Water Pump AN Fitting Adapter Kit - Front Inlet [WPF2-__] - $90.00 : Jay Racing

A couple questions -

1. Will -16 AN fittings/hoses be sufficient for road racing? Seems a little small in diameter compared to the stock hoses. Would -20 be necessary? If so, Jay's gonna kill me when I ask him to trade this one in. :)

2. Turbo line routing? I'm thinking of modifying Jay's "plug" for the old water pipe inlet so that I can use that hole as a return for the turbo line. I'll have to come up with a way to keep the front-facing fitting on the water pump on though... or I could just route the return line somewhere else. Any ideas?
 
You could weld a fitting on the bottom of the radiator for the turbo return. I believe that's what Tim Z. did on the radiator he made, although I don't think he is currently using the fitting (non water-cooled turbo).
 
I think I have a solution... change the front facing fitting to a side facing fitting from Jay:
Jay Racing Water Pump AN Fitting Adapter Kit - Side Inlet [WPF1-__] - $90.00 : Jay Racing

Then add a Tee fitting to it:
Aeroquip FBM2259 - Aeroquip Tee Adapter Fittings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Then add a Reducer fitting to one side of that to run to the turbo:
Aeroquip FCM2416 - Aeroquip Reducers - Overview - SummitRacing.com

And run the -16 line to the radiator off the last leg of the Tee.

I'm still wondering if -16 line isn't too small though.
 
Expensive experiment. Seems like it will work though. I was just on Jay's site and ordered the timing pulley tool along with a Cometic hg. I saw this water pump reroute and figured it would be alright -16 due to how much shorter your route to the radiator will be. I was wondering what people go with when installing this piece though, since they'll need the radiator drain line to be on the driver side.:hmm: Looking forward to seeing what you come up with and how it looks installed.
 
Chris, what's your plan of attack for this? What radiator are you using? With fittings this big, just fitting them in the space you have could become an issue. That tee might extend your line into the o2 housing's space.

I would also love to hear if -16 is suitable for road racing. You might want to ask Drew B. what he's using for his upper radiator hose. It appears to be -20 from the pictures, but I could easily be mistaken.
 
I'm still using the PWR radiator, I just plan to move the lower fitting over to the driver side. I looked at the water pump last night and I don't think the fittings will get too close to the O2 housing... no more than the old water pipe did. If it does, then I can change the plan - Summit has a great return policy :)

I think I will ask Drew his opinion on the line size.

I know this seems like an expensive experiment, but really it's not too bad. People spend tons of money on making power and saving weight - road racers spend time and money on cooling and reliability. It's going to free up some space with the water pipe gone, which will give me more room to try and get a custom O2 housing that will dump the recirc tube on the block side instead of the radiator side - which will give me more room for radiator fans and some ducting between the radiator and the hood vent. That's really what prompted all of this. It's also going to de-clutter the engine bay some more.
 
Not to mention, having the inlet and outlet on the radiator on opposite sides is a great thing :thumb:
 
Chris, for what it's worth; I started a thread over on NABR a few years back asking what size guys were using for radiator hoses (-16 vs. -20). The large majority of guys that replied were using -16, although most of them probably weren't road racing.

I've been running -16 radiator hoses on my street car for 2 years now, and I haven't had any cooling issues. Would a road race application differ in any way? With the same pump volume, I can't understand why the hoses would need to be able to handle more coolant flow than any DSM apllication running a factory style mechanical pump (unless there's something that I'm not aware of).
 
-16 should be just fine, I think -20 would be a little over kill.

If you could share some pictures of when you start this, Im sure it would benefit a lot of people going the same route, that is if you have the time!!
 
Not to mention, having the inlet and outlet on the radiator on opposite sides is a great thing :thumb:
That was my thought too. ;)

When I was looking and doing some work on my t-stat housing I noticed that the passages in it aren't any bigger than -16. They are smaller I think. Wouldn't that be your biggest restriction anyway?

Kevin
I was thinking the same thing - the water pump, the passages through the block, the water neck, they're all pretty small. I wouldn't think that reducing the hose size from stock would be a big negative since the rest of the system has smaller passages. But since the idea behind this project is mainly to improve cooling via airflow through the radiator, I obviously don't want to negatively impact one part of the system just to improve another. It would be a decent amount of work just to see it negated.

-16 should be just fine, I think -20 would be a little over kill.

If you could share some pictures of when you start this, Im sure it would benefit a lot of people going the same route, that is if you have the time!!
There's no such thing as overkill when it comes to cooling for a road race car. Ask anyone.
 
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I'm still using the PWR radiator, I just plan to move the lower fitting over to the driver side. I looked at the water pump last night and I don't think the fittings will get too close to the O2 housing... no more than the old water pipe did. If it does, then I can change the plan - Summit has a great return policy :)

I think I will ask Drew his opinion on the line size.

I know this seems like an expensive experiment, but really it's not too bad. People spend tons of money on making power and saving weight - road racers spend time and money on cooling and reliability. It's going to free up some space with the water pipe gone, which will give me more room to try and get a custom O2 housing that will dump the recirc tube on the block side instead of the radiator side - which will give me more room for radiator fans and some ducting between the radiator and the hood vent. That's really what prompted all of this. It's also going to de-clutter the engine bay some more.

Very surprised to see this thread pop up now.. after so many years of DSMs being raced, I haven't seen anyone else talking about this kind of stuff seriously.

I've been planning something almost exactly like this for my 2g. I'm definitely going to eliminate the entire water pipe (it's such a silly, risky design already) and simplify the cooling system with the Jayracing fitting and AN hoses. By the time I do this I'll be on a Holset HX35 twin-scroll so water cooling the turbo won't be an issue. Originally I was looking at the exact same fittings as you, Chris, for adapting to a -6 line for turbo water cooling (for my 30r)!

My plan is to use a Scirocco-style radiator (or one similar in size to this, I'm seriously considering going to Ron Davis for a custom core) and mounting it forward and down of it's factory location, at as much of a forward angle as possible. I'm hoping to create enough room between the core and the turbo/valve cover to allow a full radiator outlet duct to run up to the hood, even on the stubby-nose 2g, which will require good bit of modification to the front rad support, but should be possible.

The idea is for ALL air hitting the front fascia inlet to pass thru the FMIC, thru the radiator, and up thru the hood. This will most likely require a custom hood or at least some extensive hood work. I'd like to incorporate a gurney flap before the opening to help pull the radiator exhaust out thru the hood.

The car is mostly retired from street duty now, and I'm hoping to have this project completed in the next few months. I'll be subscribing to this thread, and will post any additional info I stumble across related to this, as well as some pictures/info as my project begins..



One discussion point I'd like to add to this topic if you don't mind, since it's directly related, is the thermostat assembly itself. What with the elimination of ALL additional water lines (FIAV, turbo, oil filter housing), this piece is almost unnecessary. Elimination of the thermostat itself is a pretty reasonable thing on a race car (one less thing to go wrong).

Jayracing sells a fitting that eliminates this assembly and places a -16/-20 fitting in its place. It's long enough allow temp sensors to be tapped into it.

The ONLY issue I can think of with doing this is the radiator cap. It should be at the highest point in the cooling system, correct? On a 1g and 2g, this happens to be the thermostat housing elbow, which is where it's placed. It would seem like eliminating the t-stat housing and placing the rad cap directly on the radiator would cause an issue because the system would not be able to bleed itself properly (the highest point in the cooling system would be somewhere internal in the head, I'm guessing).

The GVR4 comes with the rad cap directly on the radiator, but due to the engine/rad layout this appears to be the highest point.

Thoughts?


Beau
 
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There's no such thing as overkill when it comes to cooling for a road race car. Ask anyone.

well I was insinuating that even -16 is larger than most if not all coolant passages, I wouldnt imagine it would make that big of a cooling difference, but if it does, I stand corrected.
 
well I was insinuating that even -16 is larger than most if not all coolant passages, I wouldnt imagine it would make that big of a cooling difference, but if it does, I stand corrected.
I was halfway joking with that statement - the road racers know what troubles we face with cooling, so anything that can be done to combat it wouldn't be considered overkill.
 
Oh i completely understand. I know air and liquid flow differently, but wouldn't -20 hose running to our stock coolant neck be like using 3" IC piping on a stock TB....Is there a real big improvement on flow/velocity when your keeping your water pumps output the same?

Would you consider porting out your coolant housing and such? or maybe a smaller pulley on the water pump itself to improve its fluid movement capabilities...

Im just wondering, thats all
 
Oh i completely understand. I know air and liquid flow differently, but wouldn't -20 hose running to our stock coolant neck be like using 3" IC piping on a stock TB....Is there a real big improvement on flow/velocity when your keeping your water pumps output the same?

Not really a fair comparison there. For reference, a 2g radiator hose is about 1.3" inner diameter, and the 1g should be very similar.

-16 = 1" inner diameter
-20 = 1.25" inner diameter
 
Not really a fair comparison there. For reference, a 2g radiator hose is about 1.3" inner diameter, and the 1g should be very similar.

-16 = 1" inner diameter
-20 = 1.25" inner diameter

ahh, for some reason I had in my head that -16 was 1.25, and -20 was 1.5.

Sorry for the confusion. Thanks

-20 sounds good then, the ID of the coolant necks are 1.2 so it'd be a proper fit.
 
Oh i completely understand. I know air and liquid flow differently, but wouldn't -20 hose running to our stock coolant neck be like using 3" IC piping on a stock TB....Is there a real big improvement on flow/velocity when your keeping your water pumps output the same?

Would you consider porting out your coolant housing and such? or maybe a smaller pulley on the water pump itself to improve its fluid movement capabilities...

Im just wondering, thats all
Not sure. about porting. I have considered an electric water pump, but I figured I'd try this first and see if it's necessary.
 
ahh, for some reason I had in my head that -16 was 1.25, and -20 was 1.5.

Sorry for the confusion. Thanks

-20 sounds good then, the ID of the coolant necks are 1.2 so it'd be a proper fit.

Just for future reference for this thread and others, AN sizing is based off 1/16ths of an inch. Anything that is considered, for example, "-10", is 10/16" or 5/8". This applies to AN bolt sizes (dia of bolt), spherical bearings (dia of hole) and AN plumbing (ID of hose), etc.
 
My plan is to use a Scirocco-style radiator (or one similar in size to this, I'm seriously considering going to Ron Davis for a custom core) and mounting it forward and down of it's factory location, at as much of a forward angle as possible. I'm hoping to create enough room between the core and the turbo/valve cover to allow a full radiator outlet duct to run up to the hood, even on the stubby-nose 2g, which will require good bit of modification to the front rad support, but should be possible.
While at the dyno shop a couple weeks ago, I was poking around a Ford GT car that they were working on there, and I noticed that they use a system just like this. I did some rough measuring, and I honestly don't think there's enough room on a 2G. I think it would function beautifully, but the turbo and exhaust manifold are right in the way. I'd say it would be much easier if you butchered the frontend of the car and didn't have to fit an intercooler in front of the radiator. If you pull it off though, I'd love to see it. :)

Not really a fair comparison there. For reference, a 2g radiator hose is about 1.3" inner diameter, and the 1g should be very similar.

-16 = 1" inner diameter
-20 = 1.25" inner diameter

Yup. The actual inner diameters are what prompted me to ask about it in the first place. The only argument that I have as to why -16 is large enough, is that the factory hose diameter is probably much bigger in diameter than it really needs to be.

Also, I would think a -20 upper would be a PITA to work with. It would be very rigid and stiff given it's diameter and how short it would need to be.
 
While at the dyno shop a couple weeks ago, I was poking around a Ford GT car that they were working on there, and I noticed that they use a system just like this. I did some rough measuring, and I honestly don't think there's enough room on a 2G. I think it would function beautifully, but the turbo and exhaust manifold are right in the way. I'd say it would be much easier if you butchered the frontend of the car and didn't have to fit an intercooler in front of the radiator. If you pull it off though, I'd love to see it. :)

Yup, that's the idea I was going for. I also think it's going to be really tough to fit in a 2g.. I'm going to take the front end apart soon and take a bunch of measurements. I already made an exact-size replica of the Scirocco style radiator out of cardboard, and I'll see how it fits at an angle. Depending on how everything goes, I may have end up having to modify the size of the rad template, and have a custom one made like I mentioned.

That AMS time-attack rad ducting design is almost exactly what I want to do on my 2g, although the ducting is going to have to be forward of the valve cover, meaning that the beginning of the duct may end up right where the upper bar of the factory rad support goes, so that will most likely have to be eliminated..

I'm not saying it's definitely possible, but if there's a way (with the stock bodywork) I'm gonna do it. After working on Formula 3 cars for the last 2 years, I've realised that trying to get a street car (really any car with a roof) to turn is just fighting a losing battle. If you want to go fast on a road course, buy a Formula Ford and for $10k you'll have something that will run circles around a DSM with $40k into it. But that's not the point. So even though this radical/unique of a cooling system may not be necessary, it's the satisfaction of completing a project by myself that has never been done before. And just maybe, it'll actually make for one hell of a cooling system :)

Beau

P.S. Chris, I'm curious what you thought of my post earlier regarding the thermostat housing.
 
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