Quarter Master Clutch - Sneek Peek Prototype design twin-disk!

[twicks69]

Woohoo I can post here now too

Thanks for all the help TIM!!

Just drove my first QM Twin setup. Not the one Tim is testing obviously. Im running the Maperformance flywheel with QM-v-drive 7.25.
Not near as bad as some of the reviews Ive heard little grabby but I seemed to be doing fairly well within 5-10 mins.
I like it even if theres a bit of chatter

Brian, no problem man!

The clutch chatter will get a bit quieter after a bit of driving once it gets broken in a bit. As well, check out the Fluidampr harmonic crank damper, as this will reduce overall harmonics from the clutch, and will extend the engine main bearing life and transmission life a bit.

See you around!

 

[twicks69]

Im running the 90-99 eclipse Fluidampr. FDR-630701 im going to say. I got it from Extremepsi. I have to find the box. After my first 100mm crank broke with 8 or 9k on the motor the car sat for a year, and i learned alot more. I had the new crank/act 2600/ factory 2.0 crank pulley balanced all together. Its amazing how the had to drill 2-3 balance holes directly across from the factory balance holes, i could only imaging the off balance i had there (for all this guys building 2.3s 2.4s with factory pulleys GET IT BALANCED ALL TOGETHER!)

I bought the Fluidampr 200 miles on the new motor, definatly feel a difference in harmonics. Typically right around 3k i would get alittle vibration peak, it toned it down alittle. Once i put the PTT in it got rid of all the vibration i had right around 3k.

I just remembered i have 2 metallic disk setup for a evo input shaft (dogbox) with about 700 miles and 5-6 passes on them. Ill mic them and put up my findings, and then do the ones in my car, and floaters when i get the trans out.

Thats great Tim, they probably want someone knowlegable that acually drives there car on the street, and puts it though its paces. Gotta keep the street cars alive!

Ok, I just got off the phone with Patrick over at Fluidampr. Here's the scoop.

Part number 630702 is the aluminum casing one. This part has been discontinued.

Part number 630701 is the steel casing damper; and is currently the ONLY one they produce for our applications.

I also asked them about the variations between the 4G63 and 4G64 crank setup, and they recommend Part #630701 for BOTH applications.


I hope that this clears some things up!

 

[silvreclips]

Twicks69 - Can you get me a measurement of how high the clutch pack sits over the flywheel?

 

[twicks69]

Twicks69 - Can you get me a measurement of how high the clutch pack sits over the flywheel?

The clutch pack is 1.82" over the flywheel, but you need 2.03" to clear the hardware.

Here are a few pictures of the clutch fork properly clearanced for the Quarter Master clutch:

 

[Slippi84]

I saw my first PTT in person yesterday and I was amazed at how small that thing is. It's like the size of a small personal pan pizza as apozed to a stock clutch which is about 12" acorss atleast. I felt like a chick when I asked they guy that's it? I thougt it would be a lot bigger

 

[twicks69]

I saw my first PTT in person yesterday and I was amazed at how small that thing is. It's like the size of a small personal pan pizza as apozed to a stock clutch which is about 12" acorss atleast. I felt like a chick when I asked they guy that's it? I thougt it would be a lot bigger

Yup, not much to them. They use the same overall diameter as the QM, but are just a tiny bit shorter due to the thinner disks.

 

[1fastlaser]

I measured some unused PTT floaters on a spare PTT we have at the shop, and there 0.180". So it looks like QM and PTT use the same thickness floaters.

 

[Black94DSM]

Got any updates for us Tim ?

 

[twicks69]

Got any updates for us Tim ?

I have been out of state for several weeks for my job and have had no time to get anything done.

My machinist completed the basic things on the engine block, and I have my new custom pistons and aluminum rods all done. The rods were a bit bigger than spec, and required additional machinework of the big end to clear the cylinder wall, along with additional block grinding. Currently, the block is at the machinist again to be CNC'd for clearancing the rods as the main oil galley is VERY close to one of the rods, so we wanted the grind work precise as there is only ~0.070" of material left (after we sonic tested it), and we need 0.012" of material to be still removed to clear the rods, and to allow for thermal expansion and fudge factor with bearing wear over time.

Essentially, the block is not done. I also need to design a custom radiator, and will be running a forward facing water pump/lower radiator hose with its inlet on the driver side, and will be running -20AN fittings/lines for the radiator with integrated water bungs on the radiator for a future changeover to a water-cooled turbo (GT42R based). I also still need to have a custom piece made up for the 4" downpipe -- I will be hydroforming a transition piece that will start as a 4" tube with a sharp 90-degree bend, then reducing to 3.5" out of 20-gauge 304 stainless steel. As well, I needed a custom spacer to be machined for the exhaust manifold as I simply don't have the time to custom fab a new exhaust manifold this season if I want it running in a realistic timeframe, so I am water-jetting a 1"-thick stainless steel exhaust manifold flange to space the manifold off the cylinder head so the RACE compressor cover clears the bellhousing-block tab which it is currrently hitting.

I already have the 5" intake pipe fabbed and done, and have redone the intercooler piping for right now out of 2.5" for the lower pipe to get things mocked and turned on. I will make 3" IC pipes this winter.

As well, I still need to do alot of other details, and have simply just have had no time to do any of it when I am out of town for several weeks at a time for my job.

I am still trying to make the Shootout this year, but the initial schedule of April is definitely shot since the engine is not even completed.

When I have more updates, I will post up!

 

[Black94DSM]

Wow, you got your hand full buddy. . Good luck with the upcoming. I'll be waiting to hear from you.

 

[CJTurbo]

Can anyone tell me why they, PTT and QM, do not make a flywheel for FWD application. I would love to pick one of these clutches up but there is no flywheel made as of yet.
Just curious

 

[twicks69]

Can anyone tell me why they, PTT and QM, do not make a flywheel for FWD application. I would love to pick one of these clutches up but there is no flywheel made as of yet.
Just curious

One of the manufacturers originally designed a FWD flywheel for the twin-disk, but there were issues with clearance, so it has not been remade. I would suggest that you contact Quarter Master or Powertrain Technologies and discuss your concerns directly with their staff.

 

[twicks69]

Updates --

I just received the race shortblock back from the machinist, and the rotating assembly has been installed. All I can say is WOW...alot of clearancing was required to fit the custom Groden aluminum rods with the 2.4L crank in the 7-bolt!

There is around 20-30 hours of grind time/clearance work required for the install, and we even had to have the block sonic tested and then machined on a CNC because there is simply too little clearance between the main oil galley and the rods. As well, do not expect to run balance shafts with aluminum rods (like you would anyways...) because the big end of the rod overlaps the journal area of the rear balance shaft. As well, the rods required some custom machinework to the upper part of the big end radius to clear the block cylinders due to the rods originally being designed for a larger bore than what I went with.

The specs are as follows:
*CP Pistons - ~8.4:1 Compression Ratio, .005"-overbore, 7-Bolt Stroker design, Custom ONE-OFF design by Goodwin Competition. Ring gaps at 0.026" top ring and 0.022" 2nd ring.
- Custom dome and skirt design to allow the ring pack to be raised above the wrist pin. The standard stroker piston design for our application utilizes a ring pack that has the oiling ring intersecting the wrist pin, potentially causing improper seating and giving it a failure point.
- Custom dome design that has a larger valve face flycut than normal.
- Gas ported.
- Custom coated skirts.
- Custom 23mm .0220"-THICK WALL TOOL STEEL wrist pins
- Wire locks instead of Spiraloks installed.
- Weight around 240 grams! The design is similar to a Mahle design and is considerably stronger than my old Ross pistons.
- 2618-T61 Aluminum

*Groden Rods - 5.900" 7-bolt aluminum rods with custom machinework to clear the block cylinders. Custom fixture-machined rod bearings for dowel pin receiver in rod cap. Pin fit and weight matched. Oversized ARP 2000 rod bolts.

*Factory Stock 7-bolt 4G64 100mm stroker crank. Micropolished and balanced. Stock-size bearings.

*Block - Factory Stock 1999-spec 7-bolt 4G63 block. Clearanced engine girdle. ARP Main Studs and align-honed with one-off torque plate. ARP 11mm L19 7-Bolt Head Studs.



I have the flywheel out for a fresh resurface, and have ordered a multitude of parts to get this engine back together.

I will post up pics and more info when it is available!

Thanks,

 

[CJTurbo]

One of the manufacturers originally designed a FWD flywheel for the twin-disk, but there were issues with clearance, so it has not been remade. I would suggest that you contact Quarter Master or Powertrain Technologies and discuss your concerns directly with their staff.

Spoke with PTT and they stated that they are working on a flywheel but there is no time frame "it could be 2 months or ???"
It is really disappointing that not one vender has a setup for FWD.
On another note Competiton Clutch is working on one as well, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Black94DSM]

Ring gaps at 0.026" top ring and 0.022" 2nd ring.

Whats the reason behind the bigger top ring gap. I thought it was supposed to be the other way around ?

 

[twicks69]

Whats the reason behind the bigger top ring gap. I thought it was supposed to be the other way around ?

I am using Total Seal piston rings that call for having the top ring with the larger gap.

 

[Black94DSM]

Ah ok, good reason then.

Keep up with the good work!

 

[Jdog]

Wow this is going to be an amazing machine. Were the clearance issues just because of the use of a 4G64 crank, if you run a 2.0 then it would be alright would it not?

 

[twicks69]

Wow this is going to be an amazing machine. Were the clearance issues just because of the use of a 4G64 crank, if you run a 2.0 then it would be alright would it not?

You would still require an amount of clearancing to run aluminum rods, but no where near the amount required when running a 100mm crank.

 

[Black94DSM]

Any updates Tim ?

 

[twicks69]

I have the longblock assembled and on the engine stand. I just fabricated the downpipe yesterday, and shipped out the CAD drawing of my custom radiator design to C&R Racing Radiators for fabrication, and am waiting on a few fittings from Summit so that I can weld a -20AN fitting onto my water neck. Then, it is finishing up a bit of electrical wiring in the engine bay for cleanup due to the alternator relocation wiring requiring extension -- so I rewired all of those, and repaired several other wires in the engine bay. I also need to order a 4" V-band clamp today.

Other than that, the transmission is ready to install, the clutch is ready to install, along with the IC pipes, etc. Mainly, I need the engine in the car and the radiator back to me so I can fab up the -20AN lines to my specs.

 

[Black94DSM]

*getting excited*

 

[twicks69]

*getting excited*

Just talked with Devon at C&R Racing. The radiator is slated to be completed in 2 weeks or so.

I was expecting 4+ weeks for a one-off from a race car company, so this is hella- -awesome!!

 

[snowborder714]

Was there anything special you took into consideration when designing the radiator? Or was it more for space constraints?

Possibly post up some CAD shots?

 

[twicks69]

Was there anything special you took into consideration when designing the radiator? Or was it more for space constraints?

Possibly post up some CAD shots?

The new radiator directly fits into the radiator support structure in the place of the AC condenser and is 12.75"x27.5"x2.0" with side-endtanks and a -20AN inlet and -20AN outlet, along with -6AN feed fitting for water cooled turbo setups. It is also bracketed for dual SPAL 11" fans and fits flush under the radiator support. The upper mount bracketry will be fastened to the old AC condensor upper mounts, and the lower mounts are two 1/4" diameter pegs that mount into the frame support in factory-location holes that are enlarged for the diameter of the pegs. As well, the water neck has a -20AN fitting, and the water pump is using a bolt-on -20AN fitting. I also have a -6AN fitting on the water neck as the other coolant line for a water-cooled turbocharger setup. Essentially, it is going to be a very nice fit and will open up the engine bay a bit. I also have done a bit more cutting of the crash support for increased airflow, and will more effectively utilize the airflow going through the front nose opening of the bumper.

I would like to post up CAD shots after I have the radiator done, as I want the actual radiator to properly fit and install before showing people what I have done. It is not meant to be a secret, but a way of insuring that my design is a good design before showing it off.

I also have completed the downpipe fabrication and will take some photos of that tomorrow to post up. I will fab the rest of the exhaust after the engine is in the car. The downpipe isn't the prettiest, but I had a really tight area to do a 4" to 3.5" transition all on a very tight radius. The upper portion is pie-cut straight tube, and the final bend to the flex section is a mandrel bend 90 of 18-gauge 304 Stainless. Overall, it has excellent clearance and fitment, and allows me to remove my oil filter without removing the downpipe, and gives plenty of clearance from the transfer case and the -10 AN oil return line.