Prep work for chasing 16G records

[Nate Crisman]

Ya man I understand. I just thought of it this way at the time I called. A pre bent 8 point cage I found is 300 bucks for mild steel. And I have a couple guys that I am almost certain can do the job of welding and fitting for only a couple hundred dollars as a favor. I know that it can be MIG if mild steel. They do have a TIG too. I really want a chromoly for weight but I was thinking that for the 2-3k that I save by mild steel, I could do engine mods to make up that extra weight or even buy carbon fiber parts with that much money saved (hood, hatch, doors, or lexan).

However, if I do come across the money I still might take the guy up on the 2800 dollar offer but I will not pay 4500 no matter what. The guy that said 2800 said 1800 for a roll bar to 10.00. I would have no problem paying that much if I had a job but since I am still in school I am broke and this is a major budget build. And I only laughed at the guy that said 4500 because they are so over priced for Everything.

Good find on the car.

The only thing I would consider if I were you: your only .6 seconds of ET from needing a full 10pt rollcage with nhra certification. Don't bother with a rollbar, when your so close to needing a full cage anyway. And as far as a mig welded mild steel situation, Im pretty sure it has to be Tig/Chromoly for certification.

Trust me...it's sucks hardcore to be looking at a mild steel 6pt rollbar installed nicely and thinking about cutting it back out in order to replace it with Chromoly 10pt cage in order to run 9.9.

 

[larrykoren]

Ya. I am going to look around some more and see if I can get any better pricing. It seems nuts that this is going to be more than any other thing and almost more than the majority of my setup (and 1.5x as much as the car).

Does the shootout require a cage since it is a private event? I do not think I can get it before then, and I assume that it wouldnt. Every other track rental I have been to doesnt care.

Hey Nate, do you have the log of your first time with boost control? I remember you saying you lowered the duty cycle in the launch rpms and then you went to 100% after that. I am getting it installed tomorrow and am doing some testing and would like to see a baseline or what you think would have worked for you with the internal. If you dont have a log no problem, I just wondered. I do plan to be in the 9s here pretty soon, so I better start saving I guess.

Also, what is the consensus on having tubular fronts and being able to still be considered a DSM and for records? Is it as long as you have the stock suspension but in front of that it doesnt matter? I mean i see kiggly and others with their one piece fg and tubing but then I know brents car is a whole other category.

I would love to go to the track without worrying if I am going to fail tech or get kicked so this would be great to have.

 

[domthebomb11208]

Stock appearing turbo and no nitrous.

thats it? anything else goes? anywhere i can see the rules?

 

[Nate Crisman]

thats it? anything else goes? anywhere i can see the rules?

DSM Stock Turbo (DST)
-Heads up class.
-Two rules for this class. The turbo on your 1g/2g DSM MUST appear to be a stock turbo for ANY 1G OR 2G DSM and NO nitrous.
-All DST cars will qualify, time trial and race from Lane #2
-On your windshield you will put in large print, DST followed by the number from your tech card. This is your class/car number for the day.

That's it...anything else goes.
No minimum weight....(better bring a tin can)
no tire spec....(better be on 4 slicks)
no fuel spec....(better be on some form of alky)

We did forget the one other rule: the class is only for 1G DSM, 2G DSM, GVR4, and FWD Colts (cars that came with 4G63 & TDO5H turbo stock)

No Evo's, tube cars and no 4G63 swap cars....you can't run a dragster or a mustang body. The Evo's have their own "stock turbo" class to run in.


This class replaced "stock appearing DSM" because frankly...noone showed up to race because literally, very few people have a stock type dsm anymore. There are more "gutted tin can" 16g cars than there are "oem cars with stock sidemounts". Making the class a "street car" class is pointless as its then exactly what DSM-eliminator is with a little turbo restriction. Not to mention the spectators aren't interested in watching a bunch of 13 and 12 second cars make bye runs.

By having this a very "anything goes" class...it allows all the record chasing crazy cars to have a class to race together and put on an interesting show. Last year it had to be a pre-paid class to prove to buschur that enough people would show up to race and apparently the turnout was good enough to warrant the class becoming permanant. Turnout must have been much better than the old stock appearing class that sometimes brought out a whopping 2 or 3 cars with the restrictive "full interior/stock body/stock engine compartment" rules.

Here is the thread on Buschur's forum with all the rules for every class:
http://highboostforum.com/forum/showthread.php/26680-19th-Annual-DSM-EVO-Shootout

 

[larrykoren]

Hey man. I found a guy who did a local talons roll cage. He told me 1500 for a full 10pt cage. All chromoly. He does them out of his garage. The guy I know got his certified so I trust the guy does it right. I just have to save the money.

 

[Nate Crisman]

$1500 sounds pretty reasonable for a chromoly cage, even if it's minimalistic. Your not going to need a parachute unless your going 150mph, and realistically I think the car is stiff enough without needing to have the cage make extra connections all over the place.


On my end...hopefully the build will be finishing up this week. Wheels and hubs are on the way. Today Iv got to order up another 90* 3" aluminum bend and Tial bov flange in order to make a new upper ic pipe. The e3 manifold raised the TB position and the old pipe puts the bov into the hood.

Basically Im held up on hubs/wheels, finishing the wiring on the interior, and the ic pipe. Once those are taken care of I can hit the track without nitrous and start on the tuning. The nitrous system still needs some work...figured I'd put that off till the end to keep myself from getting greedy and trying to run it on the first day out. haha

Weight loss is coming along nicely:

• 68lb of dash/carpet/plastics. interior is completely gutted. I was astonished at how much plastic interior was still in the car in 2010!
• 9lb - door panels replaced with sheet aluminum
• 4lb - per door - removed rollup window mechanism
• 14lb - lighter 15" MT slicks vs 16" QTP tires
• 22lb - lighter 15" Volk wheels vs 16" Rota slipstreams
• 13lb - lexan hatch window
• 3lb - change to 1GB style center wing
• 43lb - running with no exhaust
• 6lb - cut out clutch pedal assembly
• 5lb - cut out adjustable steering column parts - welded solid brackets
• 12lb - chassis wiring harnesses removed/cut down
• 54lb - weight of the liquid intercooler system w/ water. once Im running methanol, I can ditch this system for a foot of 3" dia aluminum pipe.
• 7lb - aluminum civic radiator
• 4lb - less water in the half size radiator
• 7lb - removed north/south subframe bars

Once the intercooler is removed, the car should be somewhere in the range of 200lb+ lighter than it was last year. (which I don't know either, as I never got to Etown to use the scale). Going off Larry's weight, Im guessing the car has to be in the low 2400's

Hey Nate, do you have the log of your first time with boost control? I remember you saying you lowered the duty cycle in the launch rpms and then you went to 100% after that. I am getting it installed tomorrow and am doing some testing and would like to see a baseline or what you think would have worked for you with the internal. If you dont have a log no problem, I just wondered. I do plan to be in the 9s here pretty soon, so I better start saving I guess.

Attached to this thread: DSMpartout 1G 16G Auto : 10.6 blown up half track - DSM Forums

The forum software won't let me attach the log to two threads...weird!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Progress is ever so slow, Iv been crazy busy the last week or so. anyway, here is what's up:

Swapped the hatch for a black one w/ lexan window and 1GB wing. 16lb of weight loss

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Sheet aluminum door skins and non-moving windows saved about 15lb total. I made an aluminum bracket to hold the window up that weighs less than an ounce per door compared to nearly 4lb of window regulator per side. The oem door pannel was 7.8lb on the scale, while the sheetmetal skins were less than 3lb each.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Right now Im waiting for 4 packages to arrive: volk wheels, front 4lug hubs, a 3" 90* aluminum pipe, and a box from extremepsi with AN fittings & tial bov flange.

To Do:

• We need to make a new upper ic pipe as the bov is hitting the hood due to the E3 intake manifold changing the TB position.
• Install intercooler, pipes, hoses, fill w/ water.
• Mount slicks on new Volk wheels
• Install 4lug hubs to allow ^ to bolt on (also drill out brake rotors for 4x114.3 bolt pattern)
• Complete the last of the interior wiring on the switch panel, gauges, & auto trans shift switches.
• bolt down the dash & gauge cluster (want to make two aluminum brackets to replace 2 steel ones)
• make covers for the side mirror holes on the doors
• fab mounts and lines for a small "civic style" radiator with -16 AN lines.
• install battery, fill fuel cell, hook up laptop and setup base tune, set CAS timing.
• go to the track and kick ass

 

[VisionPaintball]

Wow those doors skins look great. Did you make those yourself?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Wheels arrived today: Volk CE28N 15x7" 4x114.3mm. This huge weight loss of the best kind: large diameter rotating weight.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The wheel & tire combo is 25lb. For comparison to the other combo's Iv been running on:
Hoosier QTP in 26x9.5x16" & 2G GST wheels: 37lb (when the car had a manual trans last year)
Hoosier QTP & OEM white 1G wheels 40+lb! (ran this on my best passes first day with the auto swap...OEM wheels are more than 20lb each)
Hoosier QTP & Rota slipstream: 35lb (ran with these on the single "blown up" run at end of 2010)

minimum 40lb of weight loss on wheel./tire is crazy!

 

[domthebomb11208]

ooo i thought i read u were running the dse class

 

[Silver99OZ]

I love this build so much. I want to see this thing run in person so bad. Plan on making any trips to Atco with it?

 

[Nate Crisman]

ooo i thought i read u were running the dse class

DST. Stock turbo Dsm class. The car is pretty much specifically built for that class other then I haven't dropped the coin on a custom turbo such as the fp68.

Pretty sure I'm too gutted & racecar prep for DSE rules.

 

[larrykoren]

Damn man. My wheels and tires weigh 34 each. 25 is light. What size MT's? Are they the same 24.5x8x15 I have? They look like it. My wheels are 16.Xlbs (15x8) but I didnt think the slicks were that light.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Damn man. My wheels and tires weigh 34 each. 25 is light. What size MT's? Are they the same 24.5x8x15 I have? They look like it. My wheels are 16.Xlbs (15x8) but I didnt think the slicks were that light.

Yup MT ET Drag 24.5x8x15" Same tire your running. Mine are ever so slightly lighter because they are 1/3 worn out from the previous owner.

On another note: my 3" aluminum pipe showed up today. The Tial bov flange and misc AN fittings will arrive tomorrow, so I should be on track to finish the car up next week once the pipe is welded & beaded.

 

[beansblacktsi]

Yup MT ET Drag 24.5x8x15" Same tire your running. Mine are ever so slightly lighter because they are 1/3 worn out from the previous owner.

On another note: my 3" aluminum pipe showed up today. The Tial bov flange and misc AN fittings will arrive tomorrow, so I should be on track to finish the car up next week once the pipe is welded & beaded.

Just curious are you going to use overdrive or are you going to rev it out in 3rd? If you are keeping it in 3rd what do you think you will have to rev it out to?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Just curious are you going to use overdrive or are you going to rev it out in 3rd? If you are keeping it in 3rd what do you think you will have to rev it out to?

Last year I went 10.62 @ 128.80 running out 3rd gear because I neglected to hookup the OD switch. I was coming through the traps at 7900-7950rpm in 3rd gear. That was with big tires too: Hoosier QTP 26x9.5x16" slicks.

This year the engine should be making way more power due to higher compression, better head/intake selection, and simply better engine health (I ran that 10.62 with a HG that was arguably blown...car was overheating and pushing coolant). The car is also 175-225lb lighter than it was last year. Iv also upgraded the nitrous system and should make another 25-45hp more there.

Iv gone with a smaller & lighter tire: MT ET Drag in 24.5x8x15" that will bring up the rpm/mph.

There is absolutely no way revving out 3rd gear is going to work if the car makes power/weight to run say 135+mph on the smaller tires. Even if I kept the tall Hoosier tires, I'd still be running out to 8300rpm or so.

Remember: This is an Evo3 16g turbo that drops boost with RPM. I would guess it likely makes peak power at 5800-6100rpm and hp falls off with rpm, thus running it to 8000+rpm is completely stupid. The car will make the best use of the powerband by shifting it early and running it at 5300-7000rpm where the turbo holds boost.

Just for the sake of arguement, Im going to guess that to stay in 3rd on the small tires I'd be north of 8500rpm where the turbo likely wouldn't even be making barely 20psi and I'd guess whp is 100 lower than it would be in 4th.

Rule of thumb for auto guys: bigger the turbo: the more you have to gain by running out 3rd. Smaller the turbo: the more OD is important. When Lucas English switched the "little auto" from the FP68 to the FP green and it picked up something like 70hp up top he reported that it still ran better ET by shifting into OD rather than running out 3rd. So it seems the balancing point of "rev out 3rd vs shift to OD" is still at a bigger turbo than 50lb/min green/50trim size. Anything smaller than that would certainly ET better in 4th and lower rpm.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I haven't been around lately, but the car looks like its coming together nice. I actually bid on that shell you won. Would just sit in the driveway like my other car because i can't ever work on it. =( Keep us posted. Good luck!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I haven't been around lately, but the car looks like its coming together nice. I actually bid on that shell you won. Would just sit in the driveway like my other car because i can't ever work on it. =( Keep us posted. Good luck!

So YOUR the guy that cost me a couple hundred bucks

Nelson is coming over tonight and we're going to get the upper ic pipe done, figure out the mounting of the civic radiator, and make the -16 AN lines for the radiator.

Tomorrow Im planning to put on the 4lug hubs, drill the brake rotors, and get the car rolling on the Volk/MTs. Monday Im going to get the wiring buttoned up and the dash on and it should start/drive on monday.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

So YOUR the guy that cost me a couple hundred bucks

. You still got an amazing deal. Are you going to dyno it before you hit the track? I would like to see the lbs/min difference between the dyno and 100mph+, and please please please cover that hole in the front. Use some duct tape or something =)

 

[larrykoren]

My car gets better ET and mph when shifting into 4th instead of keeping it in 3rd with my FP68. I didnt think it would at first but Nate said it should and it did with my turbo and 24.5 slicks.

How does this hub change setup work? I am not too familiar. Is it just an adapter? Pics when you do it? And are you welding an fittings on the radiator and the waterpipe/t stat housing? I would like to do that to sometime.

Cant wait to see what your results are and what I am up against. (Im a little scared to see the results)

 

[Nate Crisman]

Hubs: No dyno...I'm going to tune it at track. I'm broke for $ and I have bad luck with blowing shut up on the dyno. As for lb/min....speed density mucks up those #'s...it's not accurate. Changing the fuel map makes the "airflow" # go up or down. Cover the headlight hole...that's the intake. Cover the main bumper opening....ehhh, the cut bumper is a cosmetic thing with this car...for the .001 of ET, I'm going to leave it for now as protection from overheating.

Larry:
The hubs are from a galant VR4. Im swapping the whole front spindle out. (gvr4 is oem 4x114.3 wheel bolt pattern). The rear hubs pull right out of the trailing arm and are also a sime swap. These wheels came off a gvr4 and were so cheap that it was worth the pita to source and swap in galant hubs in order to use them.

Radiator: Yeah, welding -16 fittings to the aluminum radiator, tstat housing, and water pipe. The oem radiator & upper hose are interfering with the turbo outlet pipe and it's been something iv wanted to do for weight the whole time. The interference is bad enough that I think it might crack the weld on the ic pipe eventually so might as well remedy the fit issue with a mod while the car is down for other stuff at same time.

Perormance....I think I'm going to end up about 50-60lb lighter than you due to wheels/lexan/fuel cell/misc. Traction & drivetrain we are even. Engine power wise: you got a slightly bigger turbo, but iv got +compression, cams, better head and intake, and possibly a bit better ic system. On E85, I honestly don't expect to be much more than a tenth or so faster than you. On meth, I'm expecting to be about 10.1-10.2. But who knows...the car could be a freak or could have issues and be slower. No way to tell but go hammer it down the 1320. Hopefully we'll be able to better compare logs and timeslips after next weekend. Still shooting for may 22.

 

[danl]

You can get fairly accurate lbs/min info with a little math. You need to know IPW (corrected), AFR, and fuel type. You can then solve for lbs/min of fuel and knowing the AFR then solve for lbs/min of air.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, we were looking at things tonight and realized that simply clocking the compressor housing about 20* would solve all the fitment problems with the IC pipe and actually allows the intercooler to line up better than it did before. Now the upper pipe can be flipped to put the bov on the bottom and we'll drill out the old nos bung to take the ait sensor, then plug the old sensor hole. Simple...now we don't need to make a new pipe.

Clocking the compressor also eliminates the turbo pipe from hitting the radiator hose, so we decided to just hold off on the civic radiator & an lines for a while.

I love it when a simple solution presents itself.

 

[beansblacktsi]

Last year I went 10.62 @ 128.80 running out 3rd gear because I neglected to hookup the OD switch. I was coming through the traps at 7900-7950rpm in 3rd gear. That was with big tires too: Hoosier QTP 26x9.5x16" slicks.

This year the engine should be making way more power due to higher compression, better head/intake selection, and simply better engine health (I ran that 10.62 with a HG that was arguably blown...car was overheating and pushing coolant). The car is also 175-225lb lighter than it was last year. Iv also upgraded the nitrous system and should make another 25-45hp more there.

Iv gone with a smaller & lighter tire: MT ET Drag in 24.5x8x15" that will bring up the rpm/mph.

There is absolutely no way revving out 3rd gear is going to work if the car makes power/weight to run say 135+mph on the smaller tires. Even if I kept the tall Hoosier tires, I'd still be running out to 8300rpm or so.

Remember: This is an Evo3 16g turbo that drops boost with RPM. I would guess it likely makes peak power at 5800-6100rpm and hp falls off with rpm, thus running it to 8000+rpm is completely stupid. The car will make the best use of the powerband by shifting it early and running it at 5300-7000rpm where the turbo holds boost.

Just for the sake of arguement, Im going to guess that to stay in 3rd on the small tires I'd be north of 8500rpm where the turbo likely wouldn't even be making barely 20psi and I'd guess whp is 100 lower than it would be in 4th.

Rule of thumb for auto guys: bigger the turbo: the more you have to gain by running out 3rd. Smaller the turbo: the more OD is important. When Lucas English switched the "little auto" from the FP68 to the FP green and it picked up something like 70hp up top he reported that it still ran better ET by shifting into OD rather than running out 3rd. So it seems the balancing point of "rev out 3rd vs shift to OD" is still at a bigger turbo than 50lb/min green/50trim size. Anything smaller than that would certainly ET better in 4th and lower rpm.

Wow alright sweet Im glad I asked because I thought it was a big no no to run overdrive with anything making over 400 horsepower. But know that I know this I should be able to run a 24.5 slick and just use overdrive which also means I should be able to use stock struts instead of coilovers!
Thanks man!

 

[larrykoren]

Hubs: No dyno...I'm going to tune it at track. I'm broke for $ and I have bad luck with blowing shut up on the dyno. As for lb/min....speed density mucks up those #'s...it's not accurate. Changing the fuel map makes the "airflow" # go up or down. Cover the headlight hole...that's the intake. Cover the main bumper opening....ehhh, the cut bumper is a cosmetic thing with this car...for the .001 of ET, I'm going to leave it for now as protection from overheating.

Larry:
The hubs are from a galant VR4. Im swapping the whole front spindle out. (gvr4 is oem 4x114.3 wheel bolt pattern). The rear hubs pull right out of the trailing arm and are also a sime swap. These wheels came off a gvr4 and were so cheap that it was worth the pita to source and swap in galant hubs in order to use them.

Radiator: Yeah, welding -16 fittings to the aluminum radiator, tstat housing, and water pipe. The oem radiator & upper hose are interfering with the turbo outlet pipe and it's been something iv wanted to do for weight the whole time. The interference is bad enough that I think it might crack the weld on the ic pipe eventually so might as well remedy the fit issue with a mod while the car is down for other stuff at same time.

Perormance....I think I'm going to end up about 50-60lb lighter than you due to wheels/lexan/fuel cell/misc. Traction & drivetrain we are even. Engine power wise: you got a slightly bigger turbo, but iv got +compression, cams, better head and intake, and possibly a bit better ic system. On E85, I honestly don't expect to be much more than a tenth or so faster than you. On meth, I'm expecting to be about 10.1-10.2. But who knows...the car could be a freak or could have issues and be slower. No way to tell but go hammer it down the 1320. Hopefully we'll be able to better compare logs and timeslips after next weekend. Still shooting for may 22.

Yea the car should be lighter than mine. I was wondering how much if the race weight would still be less, ie how much you weigh. I am 170, and I bet you still might be lighter overall with the other things.

What mixture of meth are you going to run? I have thought about mixing methanol or even going straight. How has it worked for you? Is it worth it? What mix have you had the best results with?